139 replies to this topic

[Thomas Hogarth]

I've always been of the mind that Clantech isn't that much more advanced than IS weapons. Sure, a Clan ERPPC is quite a bit more advanced in terms of materials science and whatnot than a regular PPC, but the difference between a CERPPC and a ISERPPC isn't that great. In game terms, it's huge. A full third more damage, lighter weight, fewer crits. But I like to think that the real difference isn't so much technology, but rather concepts employed in design.

Allow me to provide a analogy; let's go with firearms.

Now, we can have two firearms of similar technology level, but built to very, very different tolerances. This impacts performance and reliability. The classic comparison here is in AR vs AK pattern rifles - but I prefer to avoid this for a few reasons. Let us instead go with comparing a Glock to a 1911 race gun. Both have a similar technology base, both have somewhat similar methods of operation(face it, in the grand scheme of things striker-fire vs SA isn't that big of a jump), and both DO the same thing. The difference is that the 1911 race gun is incredibly accurate, incredibly well balanced... and not at all reliable. The glock is designed to be carried day in and day out, and to go bang when you need it to go bang. It's designed to go bang if you don't clean it as often as you should, it's designed to go bang even after you accidentally pour your slurpee on it.

IS weapons would be glocks. Yeah, they can't shoot the wings off a fly at 50 meters, but they go bang. They go bang when 'Mech Techs are few and far between. They go bang when you had to re-purpose an industrial air cleaner as a PPC aperture. They go bang after being left in storage for fifty years with little to no keeping.

Clan weapons are represented by the 1911 race guns. They're high performance. They do everything better, but they also have a higher chance of failure. They require constant maintenance. The Clans build their weapons for trials, not campaigns. Not saying that a Clan PPC would simply fall apart after an hour of fighting, but I don't see it being able to survive maintenance-free operation for months in the jungle like I'd expect an IS PPC to be able to.

The fluff supports this to some extent. Clantech can be hand-built in small numbers by the IS, and it's extremely expensive. Even salvaged Clantech is expensive to maintain. If the equipment had the same Mean Time Before Failure(MTBF) as IS tech, it wouldn't require as frequent tech attention. Finally, I can assume that Clans generally have a lot more techs available than the IS.

All of that put together tells me that not only is the IS not far behind the Clans in terms of tech base, but by 3067 they're significantly ahead. It's just the concepts they put into building their weapons that count.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Blatant attempt to sell more books. A lot of half baked idea came with the clans. At least they were more palatable than the abominations that click-tech brought to the game.

[Alex Wolfe]

Stormwolf, on 08 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

The coming of the Clans elevated the DC from designated bad guy state to neutral/good ally for the FC. This made all the factions more like shades of grey. Even the Capellans don't seem all that bad after the Smoke Jaguars started tearing up the DC.

How ironic that it was immediately turned around to make Steiner the utterly unsympathetic villains, and Davion even more of candy-poster boys with Victor the Messiah at the helm, eh? Especially with them getting the majority of Clan tech, so that they get best of both worlds: the feel of being the "underdog", perceived "moral superiority" from being the main force beating the Clans, AND their tech. Full house, Davion. All others, better luck next time (and sucks to be you)!

Good thing they've finally threw Liao a bone with Sun Tzu, poor non-Anglo-Saxon IS nations just can't catch a break.

Stormwolf, on 08 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

I love the quantity vs quality struggle between the Clans and IS. The IS has the numbers, Clans have better equipment.

This, I can get behind. As long as IS doesn't swim in C/equipment... and the Clan players, lured by the superior tech, don't swarm the battlefields. MW3, 4 and MechCommanders were ridiculous when it comes to that.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 08 December 2011 - 11:31 AM.

[Brakkyn]

I don't hate the Clans, but I do consider them to be "the enemy" or "the bad guy", although this is not truly a universal opinion. Some Clans I consider "good", namely the Wardens, or at least some of them.

The Clans may be Kerensky's decendants, but lets be clear--they're Nicholas' deal, not Alexsandr's.

And they most certainly are not the Star League returned. That already happened, and it was to fight the very people who felt it was their right to re-establish it.

It's hard to tell what may have happened had A. Kerensky never left...or if the Clans had never invaded.

[metro]

all life has a purpose.....we should embrace them and bring them home.

[Dihm]

Metro, on 08 December 2011 - 12:26 PM, said:

all life has a purpose.....we should embrace them and bring them home.

Even the platypus? I think you're stretching it a bit.

[Raeven]

The problem I had with it was less with the 'Mechs and more with the lack of a real battle value system when they were implemented. We use to run scenarios at Eagle Empire. We chose teams using a tonnage system, equal tonnage on both sides. Well, when the clans showed up, even though they were meant to be played with fewer numbers, they still divided up tonnage equally so the Inner Sphere players got themselves handily trounced.

Between me and my buds at the house, the Clan was a great addition. To the munchkins at the hobby shop, meh.

[metro]

Dihm, on 08 December 2011 - 12:29 PM, said:

Even the platypus? I think you're stretching it a bit.

Ok, I will clarify. All life, humanoid. IS & Clan.

[Fiachdubh]

Was introduced to BT by MW2 so probably like others here the Clans were all I knew of BT until started reading the novels years later.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think it would have been pretty lame if some ComStar exploration craft discovered the Pentagon worlds and found that the inhabitants died of some random plague hundreds of years ago and all their SLDF equipment was rusted out.

The Battletech Universe (as a fictional entity) is better off with Clans rather than the alternative.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 December 2011 - 12:47 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Raeven, on 08 December 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Between me and my buds at the house, the Clan was a great addition. To the munchkins at the hobby shop, meh.

I hate munchkins too, hence why I want to make it more difficult for them to join by getting all the die-hard Clan players onboard for MWO.
You IS players would love it if we could declare trials of grievance against those surats to make their lives a living hell like Joanna did with Aiden Pryde. They will either quit or become badass Clan warriors like Aiden did (though I suppose that only a minority would hold out long enough).

And yes, I am currently re-reading "Way of the Clans"...

[Sir Aaron]

loved it because my favorite mech was added then: the Mad Cat =D

[Hairicin]

i think the clans came to early. there was so much potential for great IS and periphrery storys

[Kudzu]

Hairicin, on 08 December 2011 - 12:57 PM, said:

i think the clans came to early. there was so much potential for great IS and periphrery storys

4 gigantic succession wars, numerous bush wars and constant raiding-- there are 300 years worth of stories to be had and that's not even counting the Star League era and earlier.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

Granted, I got introduced to the universe after the arrival of the Clans, with the Mechwarrior games, but the Clans were what really drew me into the universe and its lore. Something about a society solely dedicated to being the best warriors in history really appealed to me. The word warrior gets thrown around a lot these days, but the truth is, its an anachronism. To me the Clans really exemplified what it means to be a true warrior, where from the minute they're born, a trueborn Clansman's whole life is dedicated towards being a warrior. They don't even care about raising a family, which everything in our biology screams at us to do. There are no real warriors today; warriors in the real sense of the word, belonged to a separate warrior class, in tribal societies. That's what the Clans are, except with the most advanced technology in the universe. I found that concept very fascinating.

[Darkmoose]

Yes the Clans were powerful, but they were never meant to win. They were never big enough or organized enough to win. Yes the weapons had longer ranges and were more powerful. They Also have Double Heat Sinks, lighter structure and armor, but so did the IS by the time of the invasion. There are more people in the militia of some worlds, than there were or are total warriors in Clan Society. Their supply lines were horrendously long 6 months to a year, and while clan breeding and training may have created small numbers of the finest warriors, uncontrolled breeding in the IS makes billions more. Whether at Tukyiad or Terra Comstar had the numbers and would have won, and had they not, one of the Succesor States would have finished the job. The Clans could never win, doing the invasion the way they did, and by not doing it right in the first place, lost any chance at doing it at all. Even in the post Jihad period, even with the creation and destruction of so many factories, and the wide dispersal of Clan Tech, you are not going to have a large amount of Clan Tech in the IS, and the Clans are not very likely to license their technology to IS manufacturers, with few exceptions, and even then production numbers are not that high.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

It's true that the Clans' own hubris in thinking they could win with such scant forces was probably doomed to fail from the start. Considering how much the Clans accomplished in the initial invasion with just four Clans plus the reserve Clans, and in Smoke Jaguars' case, an initial bid of eleven galaxies slashed down to three, the Clans could have easily conquered the Inner Sphere with its full force, maybe even a little less. But that wouldn't have made for a very interesting story. Though I would have liked to see the Clans win. Who knows if they'd have been able to hold onto the Inner Sphere anyway once worlds start rising against their conquerors.

[Brakkyn]

I think it's also important to note that the Clans hardly faced any sort of real resistance during the initial stages of the invasion. Pirate kingdoms, garrison troops, homegrown militias--these are hardly the Donegals, Swords of Light, or Davion Guards.

I also think that the idea of a warrior society like the Clans is doomed to die out. They are nothing without someone to fight or something to fight over. The whole central point of their society is if you want something to happen, fight about it. The winner makes the decision. I know it's not that simplistic or that chaotic, but it's the jist.

But I suppose it's inevitable when you build a society based off an army without anything to fight about or defend.

I don't think Alexsandr Kerensky would have left the Inner Sphere only to return later as a conqueror. He left because he didn't want to be involved in a conflict. His son, Nicholas, was in a conventient position to take over for his father after he died--only THEN did the Clans come into existence. I wonder when a Clanner speaks of "Kerensky" which Kerensky they mean.

We also know that Clans are not above the same "barbarism" the Inner Sphere is supposedly capable of.

[Hairicin]

Kudzu, on 08 December 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

4 gigantic succession wars, numerous bush wars and constant raiding-- there are 300 years worth of stories to be had and that's not even counting the Star League era and earlier.

there was no storys told in books. thats what i mean.

only nine books from 3025 until 3050..bam....clans are coming.

no stuff about the marian hegemony

[Alex Wolfe]

Brakkyn, on 08 December 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

I also think that the idea of a warrior society like the Clans is doomed to die out. They are nothing without someone to fight or something to fight over. The whole central point of their society is if you want something to happen, fight about it. The winner makes the decision. I know it's not that simplistic or that chaotic, but it's the jist.

But I suppose it's inevitable when you build a society based off an army without anything to fight about or defend.

I could bet that the whole reason why there are "Clans" and not "a Clan", combined with respect for touman ("let nothing go to waste") and the custom of taking bondsmen, is so that they could fight amongst each other pretty much indefinitely rather than stagnate and die out as a monolith. The Clans are set up as pretty much a perpetuum mobile of warfare, this part of Battletech lore seems to be pretty decently thought out.

Brakkyn, on 08 December 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

I don't think Alexsandr Kerensky would have left the Inner Sphere only to return later as a conqueror. He left because he didn't want to be involved in a conflict. His son, Nicholas, was in a conventient position to take over for his father after he died--only THEN did the Clans come into existence. I wonder when a Clanner speaks of "Kerensky" which Kerensky they mean.

We also know that Clans are not above the same "barbarism" the Inner Sphere is supposedly capable of.

I wouldn't go so far as to paint Alexandr as a good pacifist daddy, despite his reasons and patriotism, he was a ruthless military leader who shows no qualms against murder of non-combatants (Amaris's family and relatives, his own men during the trip to Pentagon being the most prominent examples). His exact motives are left ambigous, but it's just as possible everything worked out as intended, only with a false start due to the Huntress incident (causing the Clans' failure in the end, along with some bad luck with Showers' death mimicking the seemingly unstoppable Mongol invasion of Europe stopped by the sudden death of Ögedei Khan, and the following succession crisis).

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 08 December 2011 - 03:45 PM.