139 replies to this topic

[Franklen Mattlov]

Well, the simple fact is that, if you follow the timeline day-for-day as the Devs have confirmed, the Clans are coming in August 2012. At least according the the current canon timeline.

[Kudzu]

Hairicin, on 08 December 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

there was no storys told in books. thats what i mean.

only nine books from 3025 until 3050..bam....clans are coming.

no stuff about the marian hegemony

If you dig through the various source books you can find quite a bit of info about the various early era's. There's tons of gaps left to fill in how you please, so get to writing!

[Ran Ito]

I didn't care for them at first. A little because I missed the old artwork that "Loose" did in the original readout. But really it was mostly because a guy I played BT with back in the day (who couldn't keep an inner sphere mech in one piece) started using them exclusively leveraging any sort of confusion about the new clan equipment to twist the rules in his favor. And when he did win, oh lord the boasting never ended.

As I remember it we all finally started rolling with clan-tech too (yay Vulture) and he quit shortly afterwards.

[Franklen Mattlov]

Ran Ito, on 08 December 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

A little because I missed the old artwork that "Loose" did in the original readout.

Is there a 'Loose' fan thread out there?

[CaveMan]

Without the Clans, BattleTech would have just been Mad Max with giant robots. So for that, we should be thankful. The Clans are the one unique contribution of the BT universe.

That said, the novels played up the "black vs white" aspect of Clans vs IS, with the Clans being villified a little too much. They may have an alien culture, but they're not any more "evil" than, say, the Draconis Combine. Well, the Jags might have been. But they got theirs.

Much more attention should have been paid to the various dynamics at work within Clan society. (conflict between castes, Warden vs Crusader, Home Clans vs Invading Clans etc.)

[HeartoftheJaguar]

The Jags are my favorite Clan so I'm rather biased, but I don't think even anything they did was any worse than the wanton destruction of the succession wars. And Turtle Bay was considered extreme even by Ilkhan Showers and the rest of Clan Smoke Jaguar. The Draconis Combine had their Kentares Massacre as well. I think the Jags deserved to exist as much as any other faction, but alas, that wasn't how the writers intended the storyline to progress.

[MogCarns]

Prior to the 4th War, a game of Battletech consisted of two maps, 8 medium and light mechs, and a couple hours of rolling six sided dice needing 10s to hit. Once everyone knew what they were doing, there was about as much skill in the game as playing poker with the cards face down.

There are probably 20 people claiming to have played Battledriods for every one that actually ever even saw the name on a box.

The Clans are what made us able to get a friend to play a game with us.

[Dihm]

Brakkyn, on 08 December 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

I don't think Alexsandr Kerensky would have left the Inner Sphere only to return later as a conqueror. He left because he didn't want to be involved in a conflict. His son, Nicholas, was in a conventient position to take over for his father after he died--only THEN did the Clans come into existence. I wonder when a Clanner speaks of "Kerensky" which Kerensky they mean.

Hehe, Nicholas...

Quote

Excerpt from Grand Council security tape; 8 October 2823
Kerensky [ilKhan]: My honorable friend, the Khan from Clan [CENSORED], continues to ignore the decisions of this body as verified by the recent Trial. I do not care that the cache is of the 331st Royal Division, her father's command. This body is agreed that the caches are a resource belonging to the Clans as a whole. In the old order, her paternal loyalty would be commended, but this not the old order. We are the Clans. We stand on our own merits, not those of our ancestors.
Sarah McEvedy [Wolverine]: Except you.
Kerensky [ilKhan]: I beg your pardon?
McEvedy: I said, except you. You seem perfectly happy to bask in your father's achievements. He was a visionary who sought justice and peace for all. You seek control.
Mitchell Loris [Mongoose]: Khan [CENSORED], you go too far.
McEvedy: Do I? I know many of you in this chamber found our ilKhan's actions to secure control of the Pentagon population offensive. The Star League did not believe in torture and brutality. Those are the tools of power hungry madmen. Is that what you have become, Nicholas Kerensky? A power hungry madman?
[Raised voices from all parties]
Kerensky: SILENCE! [CENSORED], Khan of Clan [CENSORED], I, Nicholas Kerensky, ilKhan of the Clans, do call for a Trial of Grievance. By our law, you may.....
McEvedy: Hang your laws. Does the truth hurt so much, Nicholas?
Kerensky: Fellow Khans, our colleague is clearly overwrought. I call for a vote of censure. Loremaster Ward, please....
McEvedy: Don't bother, Nicholas. I'll leave. In fact, we'll all leave. Clan [CENSORED] no longer recognizes the authority of the ilKhan or the Grand Council. From this point forward, we are an independent power. We decide our own fate, fairly and according to the morals and standards of the Star League.
Kerensky: You cannot do this.
McEvedy: I can and I have.
[McEvedy moves to leave.]
Kerensky: Arrest her!
[McEvedy draws her pistol; the Khans and security guards back off. A detachment of Wolverine troops arrives.]
McEvedy: If you want to face us, fine. But we will not hold back. Prepare to reap the whirlwind.
[McEvedy storms out]
Kerensky: My Khans we face a serious decision....

[Evgeny Bear]

Well I must admit I never was very deeply into the Lore, but after a chat with some hardcore BT TT + novels fans I decided to read some of the Books myself. And I came up with a deep... not really hate... but negative feeling when it comes to the Inner Sphere Houses.

I mean all they do for over 100 years is slauthering their people, pressing out taxes and play the planets and their population out like pawns in their struggle for power. Killing their Sons, Mothers and Nephews.... beeing focused on their own extinction instead of building a new society with a decent reasearch base to develop new tech.

I would never be able to overcome my want to kill Romano Liao by my own Hands...
But then I read about the Clans and they sweep away those boundaries, gave me a chance to identyfy myself with the Lore and to some of the people to join the mighty Clans and free themselves from slavery.

Only thing I dont like in BT are the very short Intervals of story development...only 5 years and so, to overcome thousands of plantes and kill famalymembers...
so or so... I love the Clans^^

[Alex Wolfe]

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

I mean all they do for over 100 years is slauthering their people, pressing out taxes and play the planets and their population out like pawns in their struggle for power. Killing their Sons, Mothers and Nephews.... beeing focused on their own extinction instead of building a new society with a decent reasearch base to develop new tech.

You realize that if you put it this way, then the Clans do nothing for over 200 years but slaughtering their own people, scheming for the best possible ways to absorb each other's wealth and cause each other spite; and play their "honor system" out like a card game in their struggle for power, with lives, tech and genes as currency. Killing their Comrades, Leaders and Subordinates, Brothers and Sisters... being focused on accumulating power and regaining the Inner Sphere instead of building a new society, channeling their potential for tech for anything else than fueling their war machine?




...also, racism.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 05:27 AM.

[Sarah McEvedy]

Never been a fan -played Free Worlds League prior to clanitis. Sure it opened up new marketing but I am sure the same could have been done with Blake or comstar or any of the other innersphere nations. A tweak to a tech base here, a hidden factory world there and you could have had house kurita with almost all the advantages of the clan and with far better reason to remove other IS factions.


(that said...clans can be fun - just not necessary and they really screwed up balance issues)

[Evgeny Bear]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 05:16 AM, said:

You realize that if you put it this way, then the Clans do nothing for over 500 years but slaughtering their own people, scheming for the best possible ways to absorb each other's wealth and cause each other spite; and play their "honor system" out like a card game in their struggle for power, with lives, tech and genes as currency. Killing their Comrades, Leaders and Subordinates, Brothers and Sisters... being focused on accumulating power and regaining the Inner Sphere instead of building a new society, channeling their potential for tech for anything else than fueling their war machine?




...also, racism.

This may, or may not be true. But maybe its also reasonable that those Things happens but the Authors rather decide to focus on the Military aspect of the Clanners, because I think they developed a new Kultur and own social/political aspects.
Yes they kill their own kin, but most only the parts of the Warrior Caste, on Battlefields not centered into Industrial/Civilian centers of live or living Hubs. Watchfull about their resources and research material.
But the Authors wanted them to be the focus of hate and painted them as Black as possible to create those Feelings.
Well they have racism and those and be focused on honor, but atleast they wont use noclear dvices and destroying their own resources just because member XX of the Royal falimy YY said a bad word about Duke ZZ.

[Korbyn McColl]

I liked it.

We had the Inner Sphere, where MechWarriors battled it out in a decaying society, fighting with salvaged technology in machines most of them barely understood. They weren't pretty, but they had their freedom and a mech, and with those things they could do whatever they wanted.

Then came the Clans...racists, fascists, born from clone technology and believing themselves superior to all other humans in every way shape and form. They marched in expecting to annihilate what resistance their was and stake their claim on the worlds of the Inner Sphere. What they didn't count on was just how much those Freeborn scum loved their freedom. Despite their superior breeding and advanced technology, the IS MechWarriors managed to stop the Clan Invasion in its tracks. It was the classic underdog story, good versus evil, and old enemies uniting to oppose a common foe.

As much fun as it was to destroy a DCM Dragon, it was twenty times more fun destroying a CW Dire Wolf.

Edited by Devil Man, 09 December 2011 - 05:34 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

Without the ComStar Traitors those Inner Sphere Mechwarriors would have much more Problems, the Clanners would have addapted sooner or later to deal with the (for them) uncommon way of fighting.
The Battle of Tukkayyid only gave the IS enough time, so the Clans would destroy their base of power from within. They are Humans at least, so they have politics and itrigues themselves.
So I don't see the Inner Sphere as victor in that Story

[Alex Wolfe]

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 05:32 AM, said:

This may, or may not be true. But maybe its also reasonable that those Things happens but the Authors rather decide to focus on the Military aspect of the Clanners, because I think they developed a new Kultur and own social/political aspects.
Yes they kill their own kin, but most only the parts of the Warrior Caste, on Battlefields not centered into Industrial/Civilian centers of live or living Hubs. Watchfull about their resources and research material. But the Authors wanted them to be the focus of hate and painted them as Black as possible to create those Feelings.

Huh. The same can be said about any bit of fiction anywhere. "They're not bad, they're just written that way!"... which, long story short, is a roundabout way of saying "they're bad". The appealing parts about them are written by someone as well... to make them appealing. Besides, it's not ambigous "may or may not be true", those things happen in canon and are well recorded.

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 05:32 AM, said:

Well they have racism and those and be focused on honor, but atleast they wont use noclear dvices and destroying their own resources just because member XX of the Royal falimy YY said a bad word about Duke ZZ.

The reason that the Clans weren't using nukes was the same why IS ceased using them: scarce resources. Hardly a case for Clan moral superiority.

About the "bad words about duke X"... the main reason for annihilating Clan Wolverine: Nicholas Kerensky wanted to make an example, just like Alexandr made an example out of his own officers during the Exodus.

The trigger for the annihilation of the entire clan, every man, woman, child, and every man, woman and child in OTHER Clans carrying the same genes (basically, ye olde non-nuclear indiscriminate genocide): questioning the hereditary authority of the Nicholas Kerensky by the leader of Wolverine, again - wholly calculated, and orchestrated by the man himself. It's even cited above. That's pretty naughty stuff, don't you agree?

Incidentally, accidental killing of that man (ONE person) caused a largely unsanctioned, genocidal campaign of his Clan against another.

It's really hard to see the Clans as anything else than "Space Spartans by way of Soviet Union". I guess the "Spartans" part is what makes it so appealing (not that Sparta was a "nice place" by current standards), but no use denying the Soviet part when it comes to their politics, really.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 05:54 AM.

[MogCarns]

Clan Wolf Politics, maybe.

The Nova Cats have always followed a higher path.

[Evgeny Bear]

What are you intend to mean by "Soviet"?

And yes, maybe those Fades of deep black and grey are the ones attracting me after all. Something the IS bound to their tradition of not doing things, because House XX is doing something like it.
I mean when I read that Victor only wants to connect some of the Housemembers to overcome this Tradition of hatred as they where training together at Outreach, just to be forced into the same Habbit years afterwards as politics get real, and his Parents get killed... not my taste.

[Amarus Cameron]

Stormwolf, on 08 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

Even the Capellans don't seem all that bad after the Smoke Jaguars started tearing up the DC.

I love the quantity vs quality struggle between the Clans and IS. The IS has the numbers, Clans have better equipment.

I love how you are immediately the bad guy when you start winning....haters gonna hate

Also That is the biggest difference between the clans and the IS I think. In the Inner Sphere if you have a problem, just through thousands upon thousands of people at it and hopefully after tens of thousands of casualties you might have won. In the clans waste is abhorred and duels can settle entire planetary invasions.

[Alex Wolfe]

MogCarns, on 09 December 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

Clan Wolf Politics, maybe.

The Nova Cats have always followed a higher path.

I somehow doubt that when Nicholas said "terminate Wolverine genes-sibkos" (which is bureaucratic for "murder their children, and your children, and our children for having traces of the same blood as the people I've sentenced to death already") it was not child-murdering time in Nova Cats land, though (they would be certain to be next then). Still, clans' temperaments (and the degree of rotting, and we all know that "a fish rots from the head") varied from Clan to Clan indeed.

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 05:57 AM, said:

What are you intend to mean by "Soviet"?

Well, same as Kurita has a strong feel of colonial Japan, Steiner pre-WW2 Germany and Davion the generic Anglo-Saxon (dare I say "American"? Let's not forget that the Cold War was still a thing when BT first came out) Poster Boys, the Clans' seem to be at least partly based on USSR of old on the political level. Let's see, in no particular order:

- strict class system, check (castes)
- lack of private property, everything belongs to the State and it's theirs to redistribute as they see fit, check (touman and trials of possession)
- cult of personality, authoritarian leader, check (Kerensky bloodline, later diluted)
- power consolidated in military's hands, check
- militaristic, expansionist empire, check
- show trials and purges, check
- propaganda, check (saying "honor demands it", meaning "I want your stuff")
- perceived moral superiority to the "outsiders", check
- believing that spreading own views and changing the world in its own image is a "mission", check

That's... quite a big list already, and while many current systems display similar traits, I suppose the Soviet Union would be the one with the biggest amount of "checks" here. I don't think the racism is theirs, though. That's all Sparta.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 06:47 AM.

[Wolfpack75]

Story-wise, the clans were great. Gives you the hopeless, fighting for a lost cause thing that people love. Works great.

In terms of the game, I hated it. 3050/star league era tech was about as far as it should have gone. Those weapons had actual trade-offs. You could use them, and gain a bit of an advantage if you wanted to sacrifice somewhere else. Clan tech is just better. I get it, I understand the reasoning and why they did it. But it's just like, "Hey, here's a big ole easy button, all you people tired of getting whipped by better players, press this and you're set!"

The boardgame became much less fun for me with that tech. But, like I said, it works for the story, so whatever, I can always play with 3025 tech and leave it at that. Unfortunately, none of the computer games let me go with that, they all insist on shoving me into an era I don't enjoy playing.