139 replies to this topic

[Kudzu]

If anyone is interested in the non-military aspects of the clans, the sourcebook "Warriors of Kerensky" is full of info.

[Dihm]

Thinking of "non-military", I love that the scientists made their own "bloodnames".

[Kudzu]

Dihm, on 09 December 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Thinking of "non-military", I love that the scientists made their own "bloodnames".

Labnames are pretty awesome.

[Dugra Dugrasson]

Well, they needed to mix it up somehow. That and, nothing beats Zerg-rush with Elementals! I personally hope I can ride on-top of 'Mechs in an Elemental suit in MWO.

[CaveMan]

Kudzu, on 09 December 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

Labnames are pretty awesome.

They're great in that "aww, isn't that cute?" sort of way. It's almost like they're not second-class citizens!

[Dihm]

CaveMan, on 09 December 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

They're great in that "aww, isn't that cute?" sort of way. It's almost like they're not second-class citizens!

That's exactly why they are awesome.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

The Clans can claim a certain degree of moral superiority because when they practice warfare amongst themselves, they do everything they can to mitigate loss of material and manpower. The whole point of the ritual bidding and cut-down of their forces before engaging each other in battle is to win with the least amount of forces, thus gaining some honor and glory, while at the same time, preserving their forces. The Clans always fight in areas away from the civilian population and industry to protect the means to sustain themselves as a civilization. In essence, the Clans fight a truly clean war amongst themselves. This is the result of living in barely hospitable worlds. The people of the Clans knew that they couldn't afford to wage devastating wars against each other or else it would all crumble within a generation. Everyone has to do their part and work where they are most needed for them to even survive in such harsh conditions.

Now the side effect of not only living in such harsh conditions but also hundreds of years of the Warriors fighting perfectly clean battle against each other is that everyone becomes desensitized to death and killing. For the warriors, death is regarded as glorious and don't think twice about it. The civilians are used to dealing with death in their line of work. They also freely accept the warriors' rule over them and don't question when their world or their factory or whatever changes hands to another Clan. So when the Clans invade the Inner Sphere they expected the same kind of behavior when they believe they've rightfully won their worlds in combat. Instead the people of the IS rebel and sabotage whether out of national pride or because they don't have the same privileges as they did before the Clans show up. The Clan response to this is heavy handed because they aren't used to dealing any such disobedience from the civilians, or guerrilla tactics from supposedly defeated enemies.

Because of how insulated from the horrors of war the Clans are, and because of how callous they are about death in general, they seem evil but from a moral standpoint, since they are just as callous with their own lives as they are with others; holding themselves to the same standard as the rest of their society, I don't think you can say they are, or compare them to regimes like the USSR.

Edited by HeartoftheJaguar, 09 December 2011 - 01:21 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

The Clans can claim a certain degree of moral superiority because when they practice warfare amongst themselves, they do everything they can to mitigate loss of material and manpower.

Oh? How noble of them. Wait, why do they choose to do that again?

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

This is the result of living in barely hospitable worlds. The people of the Clans knew that they couldn't afford to wage devastating wars against each other or else it would all crumble within a generation.

So there, you've basically contradicted yourself. The entire "bidding" system and avoiding collateral damage doesn't stem from moral grounds, but pragmatic. It's essential for survival. They do it this way because they have no choice. If there is no choice in the matter, you cannot claim moral grounds.

As proof: as soon as the Clans smelled greener pastures, nukes went flying. Wait... Jaguar, as in "Smoke Jaguar"? Heard about Edo?

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

Because of how insulated from the horrors of war the Clans are, and because of how callous they are about death in general

Clans aren't isolated from the horrors of war, they are set up, with their division and resource conserving so that they would feud amongst each other indefinitely, it's supposed to keep their culture from stagnating, "keep the blade sharp" until the time of their return would come, but the truth is their entire society runs on inter-Clan strife. They are all about the horrors of war.

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

they seem evil but from a moral standpoint, since they are just as callous with their own lives as they are with others; holding themselves to the same standard as the rest of their society, I don't think you can say they are, or compare them to regimes like the USSR.

Babycide. WAIT, scratch that! Racism, hypocrisy AND babycide.

I think we're done here.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 01:37 PM.

[Evgeny Bear]

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

The Clans can claim a certain degree of moral superiority because when they practice warfare amongst themselves, they do everything they can to mitigate loss of material and manpower. The whole point of the ritual bidding and cut-down of their forces before engaging each other in battle is to win with the least amount of forces, thus gaining some honor and glory, while at the same time, preserving their forces. The Clans always fight in areas away from the civilian population and industry to protect the means to sustain themselves as a civilization. In essence, the Clans fight a truly clean war amongst themselves. This is the result of living in barely hospitable worlds. The people of the Clans knew that they couldn't afford to wage devastating wars against each other or else it would all crumble within a generation. Everyone has to do their part and work where they are most needed for them to even survive in such harsh conditions.

Now the side effect of not only living in such harsh conditions but also hundreds of years of the Warriors fighting perfectly clean battle against each other is that everyone becomes desensitized to death and killing. For the warriors, death is regarded as glorious and don't think twice about it. The civilians are used to dealing with death in their line of work. They also freely accept the warriors' rule over them and don't question when their world or their factory or whatever changes hands to another Clan. So when the Clans invade the Inner Sphere they expected the same kind of behavior when they believe they've rightfully won their worlds in combat. Instead the people of the IS rebel and sabotage whether out of national pride or because they don't have the same privileges as they did before the Clans show up. The Clan response to this is heavy handed because they aren't used to dealing any such disobedience from the civilians, or guerrilla tactics from supposedly defeated enemies.

Because of how insulated from the horrors of war the Clans are, and because of how callous they are about death in general, they seem evil but from a moral standpoint, since they are just as callous with their own lives as they are with others; holding themselves to the same standard as the rest of their society, I don't think you can say they are, or compare them to regimes like the USSR.

Ahh finally some word of Truth.

I think I read it in a Novel when a Clanner said that they would not harm civillians in any way, but as they pick up weapons out of depoes and in combat, and in ambush and sabotage the Clan, they have brought the missery to themselves. So I have more respect to the Clans.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

So there, you've basically contradicted yourself. The entire "bidding" system and avoiding collateral damage doesn't stem from moral grounds, but pragmatic. It's essential for survival. They do it this way because they have no choice. If there is no choice in the matter, you cannot claim morality.

I mean, one could argue that all of morality arose from practicality at some point or another. A society can't sustain itself if people are free to go around murdering each other and stealing from each other. Eventually when human beings decided they'd survive better if they worked together, they had to lay down some ground rules. You could say they didn't have a choice either.

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

Clans aren't isolated from the horrors of war, they are set up, with their division and resource conserving so that they would feud amongst each other indefinitely, it's supposed to keep their culture from stagnating, "keep the blade sharp" until the time of their return would come, but the truth is their entire society runs on inter-Clan strife. They are all about the horrors of war.

I'd argue that they are, because the civilians are untouched by war, while the warriors, who glorify it, get to wage it amongst themselves as much as they want. Clan society is insulated from the wanton misery of war. The Clans don't have to experience the ensuing collateral damage, poverty, disease, or widespread chaos and death like its always been practiced. This isn't necessarily a good thing, cause it means that Clan society as a whole, is more likely and willing to go to war without realizing just how destructive it can be to other societies like the Inner Sphere. Of course they get a taste of this themselves finally during the Wars of Reaving.

And no, I'm not claiming the Clans are the perfect society or anything like that. The way they wage war amongst themselves does seem nice though. Zero collateral damage. But obviously they got their issues with discrimination towards freeborns and such, and they don't value life much at all. But they are fascinating, and I think so because you can kind of see why they are the way they are.

Edited by HeartoftheJaguar, 09 December 2011 - 01:52 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:35 PM, said:

I mean, one could argue that all of morality arose from practicality at some point or another. A society can't sustain itself if people are free to go around murdering each other and stealing from each other. Eventually when human beings decided they'd survive better if they worked together, they had to lay down some ground rules. You could say they didn't have a choice either.

I guess one could indeed argue, but really, if the flagship of Clan "morality" is supposed to be their reluctance to burn their own tiny home down around them, then it's really not saying too much. "I'm moral because I don't want to commit suicide"? Ok, whatever!

Oh, one last thing...

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

they seem evil but from a moral standpoint, since they are just as callous with their own lives as they are with others; holding themselves to the same standard as the rest of their society, I don't think you can say they are

So if a dude doesn't care about his life OR your life, then you're supposed to be cool with him taking your life? Murder-suicide is somehow better than murder because "he treated you and him equally"?

This... just won't fly. Get off my lawn, invader scum!

Lastly: babycide.

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 01:35 PM, said:

And no, I'm not claiming the Clans are the perfect society or anything like that. The way they wage war amongst themselves does seem nice though. Zero collateral damage. But obviously they got their issues with discrimination towards freeborns and such, and they don't value life much at all. But they are fascinating, and I think so because you can kind of see why they are the way they are.

Well, this much I can get, of course as a fantasy culture are neat - basically, socialist human Klingons. It does have its appeal, and I sure liked my pet Clanners in MW4: Mercs and Mechcommander 2. They're simply, as a whole, about as bad and rotten as the Inner Sphere that they come to "make right", only more delusional about it.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 01:52 PM.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

So if a dude doesn't care about his life OR your life, then you're supposed to be cool with him taking your life? Murder-suicide is somehow better than murder because "he treated you and him equally"?

This... just won't fly. Get off my lawn, invader scum!

Lastly: babycide.

Well no, because I care about my life. I value life so it would be wrong for someone else to take mine even if he doesn't value his. Which kind of parallels the Clan invasion really. I'd say it's wrong for the Clans to have invaded the Inner Sphere and force their way of life upon them (though it makes for an interesting story), but if they want to ritualistically kill each other then its their choice. I'm saying you can't judge different societies with different standards of morality with your own.

And yes babycide is wrong. Clans lose points for that, but only cause of my own sensibilities.

Edited by HeartoftheJaguar, 09 December 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

HeartoftheJaguar, on 09 December 2011 - 02:00 PM, said:

Well no, because I care about my life. I value life so it would be wrong for someone else to take mine even if he doesn't value his. Which kind of parallels the Clan invasion really. I'd say it's wrong for the Clans to have invaded the Inner Sphere and force their way of life upon them (though it makes for an interesting story), but if they want to ritualistically kill each other then its their choice. I'm saying you can't judge different societies with different standards of morality with your own.

Well, I... pretty much agee. They are cool and make for some nice stories, and are servicable "invaders" - human enough to be somewhat sympathetic, yet alien enough to be... well, alien. Phew!

See you in the field, invader. Or maybe you won't see me coming, our house - our rules!

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 02:14 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Don't know who post the thing about Aleksandr being a murderer with Amaris' family. go read
the wiki; he took them prisoner and stuff them in a posh hotel and deliberates about their fate
for about a week. Opens the door to the First Lords throne room... sees the rotting corpses
of the entire cameron family turns around and orders their execution. This was on top of
a 13 year campaign going from the periphery to terra where fanatical Rim World troops
fought to the death. Do you really need much to go on? the entire family sealed its fate either
through direct action or complicit inaction

As for the clans being added, I was indifferent till i started playing the TT where I realized
they exist for the sole purpose of exploit by souless min/maxing munchkin gamers. They also
play really really really bland like space marines from 40k. Their tactics forgive any mistake
you make, every bad maneuver, dumb fire turn, overheating mech, it forgives all D:

Then you have the droll 'sparta' crap that apparently a lot of armchair mechwarriors fap off to. Clan
fandom has been the worst because they are so not chill with any slight...now I'm not talking
about RP here, I'm talking about a real person slighting the clans, they jump into character
to try and refute it! To me the clan fiction has always been ego stroking - 'we're perfect, we're
honorable, we have writers who gave us god's own mechs!'

In hindsight the Mad Max/ Medieval Knight theme was a lot cooler when you finally understand it
than MarySueTech tied to sloppy fiction.

greatest argument to make: if the Inner Sphere could retro-engineer clantech inside of a decade (3050-3060)
how come they could never retro-engineer existing tech such as schematics for Star League tech.

give me my double strength freezers any day of the week, and my rusty trusty A\C10

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 09 December 2011 - 10:23 PM.

[Evgeny Bear]

Wait wait... you diss lovely Speehs mahreens and the Clans....
woohoo... thin Ice man.... thin ice

[Alex Wolfe]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 December 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

Don't know who post the thing about Aleksandr being a murderer with Amaris' family. go read
the wiki; he took them prisoner and stuff them in a posh hotel and deliberates about their fate
for about a week. Opens the door to the First Lords throne room... sees the rotting corpses
of the entire cameron family turns around and orders their execution. This was on top of
a 13 year campaign going from the periphery to terra where fanatical Rim World troops
fought to the death. Do you really need much to go on? the entire family sealed its fate either
through direct action or complicit inaction

You know, I really don't want to Godwin bomb this thread, but it's really a hard sell that EVERYONE related to a tyrant is found guilty enough for the death penalty, long war or not. And not even "related to" as in "within the chain of command", it's merely by blood, and not just the "family", the purge went further to distant relatives, basically anyone who could be tracked. Besides, what you describe (with Cameron's family's bodies) isn't due process and confirming guilt - it's one man deciding whether or not to remove people who are problematic, and is simply shocked into the final decision. There was no due process, no justice other than "eye for an eye". Complicit inaction to an authoritarian leader? Complicit inaction by a child worthy of death penalty? A week-long deliberation on whether or not to kill a bunch of prisoners? Wow, the man must've been a saint!

The true reason they were executed wasn't that they were guilty, it's that Alexandr wanted to end Amaris's bloodline. You said to go read the wiki, and so it says on the wiki. He didn't want anyone who could claim, however misguided, to be the heir to the Star League. Such a thing isn't at all unheard of when it comes to hereditary regimes.

Sure, he acted out of patriotic reasons, one could say. It's still technically murder, but Kerensky was effectively the highest authority of the Inner Sphere at that time, so kings get away with murder famously. Sure, the guy was smart. Patriotic, I suppose. He wasn't selfish for sure. But he wasn't a nice guy, the "good grandpa, not like Nicholas who misunderstood him!", he was a military leader who didn't shirk from getting his hands bloodied if his perceived "greater good" demanded it.

I sort of agree with the rest of your post, though (and it's... interesting... to see the word "munchkin" come back to life on these boards).

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 10 December 2011 - 07:57 AM.

[Vincent Vascaul]

I started playin with MW:2 and I have always loved the clans in the game, I remember the first sightings in the books when they were mysterious invaders rolling up IS forces. Then when you got to know them they were everything I had hoped them to be (I mean seriously when are unknown invaders alien or not in sci-fi not over powered or advanced beyond the known limits?) I didn't like everything about them and ended up playing as a splinter of Wolverine that had become a merc unit. As time went on I joined up with the Ghost bears and ended up with the Diamond Sharks, these 2 clans to me represented the best balance of pretty much any factions. Both the IS and Clans have flawed ideals, Nobility for the IS and Honor for the Clans. Both have a place in society but neither can be a proper base for one. The whole idea of morale's in warfare has a limited scope to say the least in sense that the objective of any conflict is to win. Winning will always motivate people to seek the upper hand whether its moral or not and that is a proven aspect of human nature. The IS embrace this and the Clans try to ignore it neither is right but clans effort can seem somewhat better in a certain light but its more misguided in the long run. In the end some of the best looking mechs are from the clans and it helped foster a second wave of MW fans. Either way love us or hate us, were here to stay

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 December 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

greatest argument to make: if the Inner Sphere could retro-engineer clantech inside of a decade (3050-3060)
how come they could never retro-engineer existing tech such as schematics for Star League tech.

give me my double strength freezers any day of the week, and my rusty trusty A\C10

not really, I.S destroyed most of its own industrial assets therefore crippling its ability to really do anything but decline in technological advancements. also doesnt help the I.S having a fanatical rreligious group roaming the galaxy with an abundance of advanced technology assassinateing scientists that are outside there order.

its not until the rediscovery of the Helm Memory core and the clan invasion that the I.S started to get back on its feet with advanced technology, the ability was always there it was just lost due to destruction or comstars greed, power huner w.e you want to call it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 10 December 2011 - 03:32 PM.

[Brakkyn]

Recently I've been thinking of the Clans as a whole as the "sixth House" of the Inner Sphere.

After the dissolution of the Star League, each House sought to destroy and inevitably conquer the others, basically, forming a new "Star League" (simply a convenient term used to represent all of humanity united) under the banner of whichever House conquered the other four.

Then the Clans came along, and basically, want to do the same thing: restore a Star League/United Humanity under the Clan banner. Different peoples, different agendas, different methods, identical goal.

[Nicolai Deadfield]

I entered the game post clan, and I always liked them better than IS anyways. More my style...