50 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

How do you figure it's not possible? It's just a different engine rating, it's entirely possible.

Because it's an Omnimech, not a Battlemech. Omnimechs don't get to change engines without being first changed into a Battlemech, because that's how the construction rules work.

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Whether a 325 is flat out better or not is subjective. I refer again to my timberwolf comment: is the timberwolf simply better due to its 375?

And by "better" do you mean "better for current meta builds" or "simply better, always?"

It's not a P2W issue, as its just a different engine size, and not a particularly large difference.

The Mad Cat reaches the point of having "too much of a good thing."

But seriously, take a look at most of the "meta" builds on mechs like the Grasshopper, BK, etc. You're going to see that they always have a considerably larger engine than a 300, and an XL. Even the mighty Banshee tends to go for big engines, such as the legendary Wubshee build. I don't think I even have to mention the trend for lights, and we see decently big engines in mechs like the Griffin and Stormcrow. Clans have the Executioner as a good big-engine assault, etc.

Meanwhile, small engine mechs are often left in the dust. The once king Dire Whale has been overtaken by the skill tree nerf and a degree of power creep. We already know the state of many Clan lights. The Marauder hero had to have its engine cap increased because of community complaints about it not being viable at such a low stock level. Several Vindicator variants are made that much worse because of having sub-250 engines. Etc.

While there does come a point when you have too much engine (usually past the 350s or so outside of 95 tonners), there is also a point when you have too little. Many mechs that have too little "just so happen" to be sub-par as a result. Lower speed, lower agility (meaning lower durability since it's harder to spread damage or avoid damage), fewer critslots (engine DHS), and sometimes inferior heat efficiency (Poordubs).


Back the NG, its core mechlab weaknesses (we don't know hitboxes yet) are:
1. Having somewhat low speed and agility for its class
2. Running out of critslots before running out of tonnage.

What does the larger engine change?
1. Increases speed and agility (also increases durability since it can spread and avoid damage more easily)
2. Eats up some of that tonnage without spending any critslots

It still ends up with around 33-34 tons of pod space with the bigger engine factored in, which is still more than sufficient for a Clan heavy.

Unless you did something like remove its ability to use Omnipods and just give it a set of mediocre hardwired hardpoints (like a real Battlemech), it would easily be the best NG variant.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2016 - 06:25 PM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Because it's an Omnimech, not a Battlemech. Omnimechs don't get to change engines without being first changed into a Battlemech, because that's how the construction rules work.

Those construction rules don't exist. A hero mech can have anything, in the same way a specific single mech in a novel can have anything.

It's a one off special variant.

Quote

Unless you did something like remove its ability to use Omnipods and just give it a set of mediocre hardwired hardpoints (like a real Battlemech), it would easily be the best NG variant.

Without quirks, the Misery is easily the best Stalker variant. It's also the only Stalker able to mount ballistics. At Dragonslayer release date, it was easily the best Victor variant.

So?

Having +25 engine rating may make the Hero the best variant, but not by a huge margin. As I said earlier, this would apply to basically ANY unique CT feature or for that matter to ANY unique omnipods feature that makes a specific omnipod desirable.

Edited by Wintersdark, 30 April 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Those construction rules don't exist. A hero mech can have anything, in the same way a specific single mech in a novel can have anything.

It's a one off special variant.

Omnimechs don't have "one off variants." They technically aren't supposed to have variants period, you're supposed to just have one single base chassis that you stick pods in. MWO only made Omni variants to continue the "3 mechs to elite" grinding paradigm.

If you take an Omnimech and give it a different engine, you have to go through refit and turn it into a Battlemech.

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Without quirks, the Misery is easily the best Stalker variant. It's also the only Stalker able to mount ballistics. At Dragonslayer release date, it was easily the best Victor variant.

So?

You don't see any issue with the most powerful variant being exclusively available for real money? Alternatively, you don't see any issue with C-Bill mechs having lower combat effectiveness than MC or $$ mechs?

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Having +25 engine rating may make the Hero the best variant, but not by a huge margin. As I said earlier, this would apply to basically ANY unique CT feature or for that matter to ANY unique omnipods feature that makes a specific omnipod desirable.

And thus you've encountered the intrinsic balancing issue that comes with exclusive mechs having altered combat abilities, because sometimes those "different" combat stats end up being either superior or inferior. MWO has seen plenty of both outcomes, and both of them suck.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Omnimechs don't have "one off variants." They technically aren't supposed to have variants period, you're supposed to just have one single base chassis that you stick pods in. MWO only made Omni variants to continue the "3 mechs to elite" grinding paradigm.

If you take an Omnimech and give it a different engine, you have to go through refit and turn it into a Battlemech.

Except this is MWO, and we already have CT's that are unique. PGI doesn't "have to" to anything. PGI gets to decide exactly how this works.

Quote

You don't see any issue with the most powerful variant being exclusively available for real money? Alternatively, you don't see any issue with C-Bill mechs having lower combat effectiveness than MC or $$ mechs?

for a specific chassis? No, not really. I have an issue if the OBJECTIVELY best mechs in the game are paywalled (p2w concerns) but I didn't care when the Dragonslayer was the best Victor, I didn't care when the Misery was the best Stalker, and I don't care that the Oxide is the best Jenner.

Balance shifts around anyways. Even if the Hero Night Gyr wasn't the best right now, with unique omnipods it could well end up being the best after some random balance change in the future.

Maybe next we'll see a heavy ballistics meta and the 300 engined variants will be better. Maybe Night Gyrs will be victored and go from being awesome to garbage.

I just don't care. It's unavoidable, if the Hero mech has ANYTHING unique, it may well end up being "required" for the best Night Gyr builds. It's actually likely that'll happen, and is so totally u avoidable it's not worth mentioning.

Quote

And thus you've encountered the intrinsic balancing issue that comes with exclusive mechs having altered combat abilities, because sometimes those "different" combat stats end up being either superior or inferior. MWO has seen plenty of both outcomes, and both of them suck.

Inevitable, and again as long as there's free mechs that are as good or better, I don't care. Maybe you've got to pay to get the very best Jenner. So? You don't have to pay to be fully competitive. Good enough.

Hero's are here and going to stay.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Except this is MWO, and we already have CT's that are unique. PGI doesn't "have to" to anything. PGI gets to decide exactly how this works.

The "uniqueness" of the CT's is just in the form of hardpoints for the most part. The engine, heatsinks, armor/structure locations, etc. are the same across the board. They don't even have unique quirks anymore since the most recent quirk update.

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

for a specific chassis? No, not really. I have an issue if the OBJECTIVELY best mechs in the game are paywalled (p2w concerns) but I didn't care when the Dragonslayer was the best Victor, I didn't care when the Misery was the best Stalker, and I don't care that the Oxide is the best Jenner.

Balance shifts around anyways. Even if the Hero Night Gyr wasn't the best right now, with unique omnipods it could well end up being the best after some random balance change in the future.

Maybe next we'll see a heavy ballistics meta and the 300 engined variants will be better. Maybe Night Gyrs will be victored and go from being awesome to garbage.

I just don't care. It's unavoidable, if the Hero mech has ANYTHING unique, it may well end up being "required" for the best Night Gyr builds. It's actually likely that'll happen, and is so totally u avoidable it's not worth mentioning.


Inevitable, and again as long as there's free mechs that are as good or better, I don't care. Maybe you've got to pay to get the very best Jenner. So? You don't have to pay to be fully competitive. Good enough.

Hero's are here and going to stay.

It's not about removing heroes so much as allowing people to somehow access the same combat stats (e.g. hardpoints & quirks) without spending real money.

That doesn't have to mean the actual hero itself can be bought with C-Bills so much as a Poor Man's version. The Poor Man's version would have the same hardpoints/quirks/etc, but it would lack the C-Bill booster and special paint job of the "real" hero. Thus, the dreaded P2W is no longer possible no matter how strong the hero would be, because people could achieve the same combat power without MC or $$.

But then why would people buy heroes? The primary use is the convenience factor of earning money at a faster rate. If we have to, we can even crank up that booster if 30% isn't enough. Maybe add an XP booster as well to grind GXP faster. You also get to have the fancy looking camo pattern of the hero. There you go, there are your incentives to buy hero mechs other than altered combat performance.

Will this ever change? I'm 100% certain that it will never change, just as many other things in this game won't. However, just because it won't change doesn't eliminate the issues involved.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2016 - 02:42 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I don't disagree. It's just something that has always been that way and always will be. *shrugs* I totally get your point, but... We've got tons of unique heroes, and will continue to get unique heroes. May as well get interesting ones.

[CK16]

The mech coloring kinda reminds me of Diamond Shark colors. But we will see, most likely it being a big Jade Falcon Mech, it is related to them.

[Pariah Devalis]

To those saying there are no one-off Clan mechs, I could mention Vlad's Executioner, that had a slightly beefed up engine, its MASC removed, and a totally custom loadout including two Gauss Rifles and gobs of lasers but...

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 30 April 2016 - 03:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Pariah Devalis, on 30 April 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

To those saying there are no one-off Clan mechs, I could mention Vlad's Executioner, that had a slightly beefed up engine, its MASC removed, and a totally custom loadout including two Gauss Rifles and gobs of lasers but...

Vlad's Executioner loadout literally breaks the construction rules. There is no possible way he could find enough tonnage to mount all of the weapons he had unless he ripped out all of the Jump Jets and downsized the engine.

His loadout was designed as a result of bad writing for novels, it was never designed in the actual BT game itself.

[Pariah Devalis]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

Vlad's Executioner loadout literally breaks the construction rules. There is no possible way he could find enough tonnage to mount all of the weapons he had unless he ripped out all of the Jump Jets and downsized the engine.

His loadout was designed as a result of bad writing for novels, it was never designed in the actual BT game itself.

All the same, that is irrelevant. It is a clear example of a highly modified, beyond normal restrictions, "hero" omnimech. While it is illegal to build, it still sets a precedent as far as the theory of it is concerned.

[Gas Guzzler]

CK16, on 30 April 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

The mech coloring kinda reminds me of Diamond Shark colors. But we will see, most likely it being a big Jade Falcon Mech, it is related to them.

The giant falcon with blood everywhere and green and yellow colors tells me it is definitely a CJF hero.

[CK16]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 April 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

The giant falcon with blood everywhere and green and yellow colors tells me it is definitely a CJF hero.

It is not though, that is one of the Keshik paint schemes. similar to the White and red Kodiak.

[Intrepid]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Omnimechs don't have "one off variants."

Yes they do. While mechanically rules trump Lore for the board-game, the facts are that Omnimech variants do exist in Lore and MWO is not the board-game.

Continuing to say that Omni variants do not exist when you have been informed otherwise is deceitful and seriously hurts your credibility.

[FupDup]

Intrepid, on 30 April 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Yes they do. While mechanically rules trump Lore for the board-game, the facts are that Omnimech variants do exist in Lore and MWO is not the board-game.

Continuing to say that Omni variants do not exist when you have been informed otherwise is deceitful and seriously hurts your credibility.

I probably should have phrased it differently...

Omnimech "variants" work completely different than Battlemech variants.

For Battlemechs, the variant is a completely separate manufactured unit, often with core changes made to its design. To use a car analogy, one BM variant might be a Toyota year 2015 truck while another variant might be a Toyota year 2016 truck.

For Omnimechs, all "variants" use the same "blank slate" modular base chassis as the starting point. All Timber Wolves are built off of the Timber Wolf Base. All Novas are built off of the Nova Base Config. Etc. The only difference between Omnimech variants are the Omnipods and guns stuffed inside of them. The internal structure remains the same. The armor type stays the same. The engine stays the same. Any hardwired equipment such as Jump Jets (e.g. Summoner) or heatsinks (e.g. Warhawk) stay the same. No Omnimech variant ever changes the internal base chassis, they just add additional items on top of the base.

As a result of this, you can take any Omnimech base chassis and turn it into any variant you want. You can make a TBR-Base into a TBR-Prime, and then you can rip out the pods and turn it into a TBR-C or TBR-D or whatever else you want.

The idea that a TBR-Prime has a different body from the TBR-A is something PGI made up because of their "3 mechs for elite" grinding rule to make people spend more C-Bills and time. Technically, Omnis should be able to swap CT Omnipods just like any other body part.

There are some cases where there are Battlemechs based off of Omnimechs. For example, the Cougar-XR takes Cougar's design and then makes very significant changes to it, such as adding a Partial Wing, Small Cockpit, and Glazed Armor. In order to use all of these fancy items, the Cougar-XR had to be heavily rebuilt and thus cannot use Omnipods anymore. It's a Battlemech now just like any other IS mech or IIC mech in MWO.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

CK16, on 30 April 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

It is not though, that is one of the Keshik paint schemes. similar to the White and red Kodiak.

Wait which one are you talking about? The green and yellow one with the bird?

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Back the NG, its core mechlab weaknesses (we don't know hitboxes yet) are:
1. Having somewhat low speed and agility for its class
2. Running out of tonnage before using all of its critslots

Pretty sure you meant running out of critslots before using all tonnage.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 30 April 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hero mechs aren't production variants. They are unique mechs, one of a kind. Less so because game, but they're not variants like TBR-B or STK-3F.

You know what, this is silly.

Since when do you of all people argue things from a perspective of Battletech rules?

Would you be arguing this at all if this wasn't a MC mech? I bet not.

Fine, I'll change gears a bit..


If you want to have Omnipod customization, you have to give up customization somewhere else. I'm not saying the current system is perfect, but if you want to change your engine then you should have to give up some other changeability in that process...like perhaps losing your ability to change pods.

There is some sense in this idea even if it's not executed perfectly right now.

Ultimax, on 30 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

Pretty sure you meant running out of critslots before using all tonnage.

Derp, I have to edit that now. :\

[FupDup]

I'll even give my own hero NG ideas just as an academic exercise. Of course, we have yet to see what PGI already has pre-planned, which could either have the best hardpoints or the worst, or something in-between. My goal is to try to differentiate its role while trying to avoid making it clearly better than its peers.

For reference, I will post the C-Bill variant hardpoints.


Head: Nearly all of them have a head laser, so the hero doesn't need to have another head energy. Ballistic would be useless since it could only be an MG. I'll suggest a missile here, which could be used in conjuction with other missile pods to boat small missile launchers.

CT: We already have a laser CT variant so I'll avoid that. Ballistic could only be used on a UAC/2, so that's a no-go. To copy the head, I'll suggest 1-2 missile hardpoints here.

Side Torsos: These are hard to figure out since every weapon type is already covered. I don't want to give doubles of any weapon type, either. I'd avoid giving ECM to a mech that has the potential that this one has, and I'm not sure if something crazy like 2-3 AMS would be worth it. Maybe just shove a ballistic in each side or something, I dunno.

Arms: These also cover all weapon types. However, as far as I know they lack lower arm actuators. Thus, I will suggest 1 energy hardpoint and LAA enabled for both arms. You get to have better arm flex in exchange for only 1 hardpoint each.

Stock build: Probably 2 UAC/10 or 2 UAC/5, along with several (S)SRM4. Arm lasers will be something like MPL I guess.


The arm flexing and small-missile boating would probably make this variant most used for brawling, such as using several stacked SRM4 (or even SSRM4) and some energy backups along with them. The free variants will be better for direct fire, particularly at longer ranges.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Intrepid]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

I probably should have phrased it differently...

Omnimech "variants" work completely different than Battlemech variants.

No Omnimech variant ever changes the internal base chassis, they just add additional items on top of the base.

You know perfectly well what is being said. Continuing to obfuscate this issue is incredibly disingenuous.

By the Battletech Rules, one cannot modify the base chassis of an Omnimech (without reverting that particular individual mech to a regular Battlemech).

Nevertheless in Lore, there are multiple examples of customized base chassis Omnimechs that have remained Omnimechs.

Given that MWO does not follow the BT rules and that PGI (gives lip service to) loving the lore, it is entirely possible & appropriate that they consider a Hero Omni with a different sized (fixed) Engine.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'll even give my own hero NG ideas just as an academic exercise. Of course, we have yet to see what PGI already has pre-planned, which could either have the best hardpoints or the worst, or something in-between. My goal is to try to differentiate its role while trying to avoid making it clearly better than its peers.

For reference, I will post the C-Bill variant hardpoints.


Head: Nearly all of them have a head laser, so the hero doesn't need to have another head energy. Ballistic would be useless since it could only be an MG. I'll suggest a missile here, which could be used in conjuction with other missile pods to boat small missile launchers.

CT: We already have a laser CT variant so I'll avoid that. Ballistic could only be used on a UAC/2, so that's a no-go. To copy the head, I'll suggest 1-2 missile hardpoints here.

Side Torsos: These are hard to figure out since every weapon type is already covered. I don't want to give doubles of any weapon type, either. I'd avoid giving ECM to a mech that has the potential that this one has, and I'm not sure if something crazy like 2-3 AMS would be worth it. Maybe just shove a ballistic in each side or something, I dunno.

Arms: These also cover all weapon types. However, as far as I know they lack lower arm actuators. Thus, I will suggest 1 energy hardpoint and LAA enabled for both arms. You get to have better arm flex in exchange for only 1 hardpoint each.

Stock build: Probably 2 UAC/10 or 2 UAC/5, along with several (S)SRM4. Arm lasers will be something like MPL I guess.


The arm flexing and small-missile boating would probably make this variant most used for brawling, such as using several stacked SRM4 (or even SSRM4) and some energy backups along with them. The free variants will be better for direct fire, particularly at longer ranges.

Regarding the CT, I would actually love to have a CT energy Night Gyr with a 30% C-bill boast so I can run my dual gauss build on it.