232 replies to this topic

[Rocket2Uranus]

Alaric Hasek, on 29 April 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Russ finally said it: the player base needs to stop thinking that it knows better than PGI how to develop this game. They don't. If you _can_, let me know when you finish your perfect game and I'll come play it. Until then, put up or shut up.

That's the dumbest thing any dev can say about their players.
The most successful games has always listened to their players.

For example look at DayZ mod. Was started by a dev Dean Hall then it was picked up by the modding community afterwards and still the main reason Arma 2 and Arma 3 sells for Bohemia Interactive. DayZ Standalone by the devs are tanking. Because they don't know what they are doing. Clearly the community is pretty damn good aren't they?

Russ is smart I'm pretty sure, but he sounds arrogant as well. MWO isn't a hit. MWO is just doing okay. They spent more manpower/time on making new mechs to sell, than actually focus on fixes/balances (probably because they want to break even with the money they are losing on servers and staff). The tournament was funded by players (thats hilarious that some people can say MWO is doing well, when they can't even offer up prize money on their own, but had to get the community to foot the prize money). They overprice mechs to the point where its a RIP off only making sales to die hard MechWarrior fans. (dont' tell me I need to shut up because I'm a free player. I've already dropped over $60 into the game that entitles me to judge it as much as I want).

Their marketing is horrid and instead of trying to sell mechs overpriced, they should really think about lowering costs of MC and Mechs in general. They should really try to reach out to new players to get them to spend $30-40 off the bat by offering more mechs than they offer for the price. The average player will come to MWO with INTEREST. Seeing that they get 1 set of mechs for $20-60 dollars, they will compare it to the fact that they can buy a triple A title twhich will offer free multiplayer with countless weapons,class and maps to play. They won't see this as a deal, but a rip off. Honestly they should just package 1 of each old IS mechs into a bundle for 40 dollars that includes 2 light mechs, 2 medium mechs and 2 heavies and call it a "starter pack" for $40 dollars. It will keep the new players interested and it will keep them coming back to the point of leveling their 6 mechs and perhaps even spend more money. It's not like anyone actually spends real money on old mechs since they are so underpowered and newer mechs are being released with better quirks and better hardpoints (we all know this is true and it's a marketing tactic for all F2P games. Newer is better so give us your $$$$$$).

Anyways, saying "I am the boss I am the awesomesauce" (thats how I read his remark about telling everyone to shut up). That's like the standard response horrible boss would say to his employees when they approach him with fresh/new ideas. (yes some people have horrible ideas, but trust me there are also really good ones that employees can come up with as well). Seriously sounds like the kind of boss who tells his employees he's way is the best way and not to question his "authoritah".

I bet you statistically new players drop in and play for 5-10 matches they think about buying a new mech. See the prices and uninstall. Pretty sure this is why they got the "most successfull MWO series" claim by people making IDs/Accounts. But I'd like to see the statistics of players continually playing this game. I bet you it's not that high. (no one from PGI will confirm this out front because, that would scare away any real investors). Even regulars here get tired of the game and take 4-6 month breaks.

I like the game, but the game is really in this weird limbo where it can go become GREAT but its not. And we all know bosses will blame the workers and their underlings (can't figure out the scripting/programming. seriously get a freelance programmer to figure it out then). But when it come to a business, no matter how well the business is doing the boss that takes credit. And the wisest thing to do if the staff can't do it, is hiring the right people to take it toward the right direction. And clearly.... MWO is still not going in the going back and forth since 2012.

So.... when someone who has the means to be great, tells people to shut up when they are coming to them with ideas and suggestions. We clearly can see where the blame lies.

Edited by Rocket2Uranus, 30 April 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Mcgral18]

And I go ahead and say Long Tom is pretty stupid in the current iteration?

A 542M instant death zone every two minutes isn't very healthy for the game.



It's also an easy fix: NON-linear falloff (or be lazy and 100 damage linear, for a 99M insta-face popping kill zone)

[Trashhead]

I am still waiting for the Townhall to make it to youtube, but apparently NGNG is busy right now.
(Probably hesitating because of this issue here ?)

Anyway:
If Russ' statement was aimed at the player's who not only complain about the current state of the game, but doing this in a rather disrespectful way, I totally back him.
If it was aimed at players who simply point out the flaws, then I don't back him.

That being said, I really think the general communication PGI <-> Players could use some improvement.
(In case someone missed it: I am pointing at both sides here.)



But this is a problem with most games.
I am playing Elite:Dangerous at them moment, and although it has vastly more customers, people are complaining just as well.

Heck, even in the company I am working for communication between the departments is... how should I put it... "less the optimal".

We should also not forget how much, or rather how little, money MWO is making.
Given how few customers PGI has, the game is not that bad.
And it's free to play (and PGI does not exploit this in order to make you pay to win... at least not nearly as much as other F2P-Titles do, afaik.)


On that topic, SideStrafe has made an interview with Mitch Gitelman (Studio Manager at Harebrained Schemes, currently developing the BattleTech turn based strategy game) about a variety of game development topics.
It gave me quite some insights into the topic of game development, and I highly recommend watching it.

-> The Strafing Run - Battletech Interview, ft Mitch Gitelman
P.S.: I am still addressing both players and PGI here.

[Ted Wayz]

Alaric Hasek, on 29 April 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Russ finally said it: the player base needs to stop thinking that it knows better than PGI how to develop this game. They don't. If you _can_, let me know when you finish your perfect game and I'll come play it. Until then, put up or shut up.

Can you not listen to the player base then tell them that you don't need to listen to them?

Is he looking for a "thank you"? Especially after the Sith lord move off saying "Give me money to give you a excellent CW experience" and then says "Surprise Buttsex! E-sports!".

Keep in mind, MWO is their track record for free to play MMO's. Do people think PGI is doing a good job monetizing this game?

Why so defensive Russ? Need a hug?

[RedDragon]

Just to chime in here: I think it's pretty obvious that without the MW license, Russ and his team would be literally nothing.
The only thing that keeps this game going are the whales who are die-hard BT fans and who obviously (no insult intended) would buy anything BT-related.
Not only did PGI take 4 years to build an at best mediocre game, they also managed to chase away countless fans of the franchise who would have rejoiced to spend more money on this game if it was worth it.

So no, the argument that they as game devs are more successful and thus right in what they say doesn't hold water. They just had the luck (and obviously the funds) to stumble upon the license. For that, kudos. For everything else: a history of failure.

[ScarecrowES]

Ted Wayz, on 30 April 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

Can you not listen to the player base then tell them that you don't need to listen to them?

Is he looking for a "thank you"? Especially after the Sith lord move off saying "Give me money to give you a excellent CW experience" and then says "Surprise Buttsex! E-sports!".

Keep in mind, MWO is their track record for free to play MMO's. Do people think PGI is doing a good job monetizing this game?

Why so defensive Russ? Need a hug?

The issue is, and you can see this all over MWO's development...

We get a small vocal minority that INSIST that PGI takes action on a certain topic. Stomps their feet and threaten to pull their monetary investment of the game until they get their way. So PGI, having to keep the light on, listens to those players. They make changes to the game, and those changes tank. So not only have you wasted all that time and energy on implementing features or "fixes" the community asked for, but now you're wasting more time and energy correcting them.

A good example is splitting the CW queue in such a way that solo players never had to play units. A handful of players stomped their feet and swore up and down they would never play CW if they had to play against "seal-clubbing 12-mans." So PGI gives us separate queues... players need never play against units ever again. And yet, these same players then started creating 1-man units so they could play against units in the unit queue.

You know what... that's a slap in the face not only to PGI, who listened to players' concerns and implemented a change at their request, at the cost of time and energy that could have gone into other sorely needed features - but also a slap in the face of other players in the community who would have greatly benefited from those other features.

Classic example of a feature that PGI was working on but didn't make the cut? Saved drop decks. This is a feature CW players have been asking for for years, and PGI was set to include in the phase 3 changes, but simply didn't have the time or energy to implement. Maybe if they weren't invested in splitting the queues, and establishing background systems for freelancers to keep them separate from unit players but still in the game... then likely we would have gotten pre-set drop decks instead.

Another example of wasted time and effort? 2 full rounds of major quirk passes some members of the community insisted on. You know... insisted on INSTEAD of a rescale project, knowing full well (as many of the smarter ones in the community did) that you couldn't get proper feeling for which mechs were underperforming until they were at least the correct effing size first. So once this rescale project is done, we'll have to go through yet another round of quirk passes for the newly size mechs. The time wasted on 2 full quirk passes could have been better spent on REAL balancing issues.

So yeah... I'm in favor of Russ ignoring the vocal minority and just developing the damn game.

I'm in favor of him blocking every single person who fills his inbox asking for the Mad Cat MkII or the Mackie for the millionth time. Or any of the other completely inane things I saw in the chat box over the last 4 townhalls. Because the second PGI doesn't have to listen to that nonsense anymore, we can get down to the matter of fixing things that actually need fixing.

[Y E O N N E]

You know, I think there is some merit to the idea that if they ignored certain things that a minority are vocal over, we could have a nicer game.

For example, PvE. I don't think they should be spending any time at all on that. I would much rather they ignore that and the people clamoring for it to make the core of their game, the multiplayer, better.

[ScarecrowES]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 April 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

You know, I think there is some merit to the idea that if they ignored certain things that a minority are vocal over, we could have a nicer game.

For example, PvE. I don't think they should be spending any time at all on that. I would much rather they ignore that and the people clamoring for it to make the core of their game, the multiplayer, better.

I actually agree with this. PvE is a massive resource suck. While I would personally LOVE another Mechwarrior PvE game... and honestly I would probably actually PREFER that to a multiplayer-only game, if given the option... for what MWO is, it's one of the worst thing PGI could be investing on.

Now, parts of what is needed to make PvE work... AI development, inclusion of vehicle and infantry, and those sorts of things... larger scale maps... event scripting and map state changes... all of THOSE things would actually make for a better multiplayer game too. You can't have dynamic game modes in multiplayer - things that MWO needs, really - without a lot of those things. So not ALL of that work would lack benefit to the multiplayer system of MWO... but a lot would.

[FupDup]

The Silent Majority™ apparently knows best.

Unfortunately, they can't share what they know because, you know, they're silent and stuff.

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

The Silent Majority™ apparently knows best.

Unfortunately, they can't share what they know because, you know, they're silent and stuff.

It's like it is in just about anything... In politics, you NEVER hear from the happy middle than makes up the majority of a populations. Those people are always too busy happily enjoying life to whine about anything that's inconsequential to them. The people who are contented with something never rally together in protest shouting, "We're actually pretty much happy with all of this, thanks!"

No, you only ever really hear from nutjobs on either end of the spectrum that have a strong negative opinion about something. Those are the people who always yell loudest. In fact, now that we have the internet - and nutjobs who used to be unable to spew their bile far enough for it to influence anything can send their craziness to the far reaches of the Earth and find other nutjobs to rally to their cause - modern political systems of any type (be they governments or video games) are just full of a minority of extremists pushing nonsense onto a majority of the population that, you know, is just pretty much ok with small improvements on the status quo.

I'll point to the recent argument on the size of the Phoenix Hawk. Russ actually brought this up in the townhall. People see a pic taken from a texture artist's computer and say, "holy cow, that mech is so BIG." Comparing it to the mechs next to it. But as I said, other people said, and now RUSS has said... how can you compare the size of a mech if you don't even have a properly-sized reference standing next to it to compare it to. The mechs standing on either side of that Phoenix Hawk were undergoing rescale, and yet people are screaming DOA based on size without having any way of seeing how large it is?

Your happy, well-reasoned middle... the normally silent majority does come out and speak on these issues... but is usually drowned out in a deluge of unintelligible moron-vomit.

[Mcgral18]

ScarecrowES, on 30 April 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

A good example is splitting the CW queue in such a way that solo players never had to play units. A handful of players stomped their feet and swore up and down they would never play CW if they had to play against "seal-clubbing 12-mans." So PGI gives us separate queues... players need never play against units ever again. And yet, these same players then started creating 1-man units so they could play against units in the unit queue.

This was also a PGI mistake.

There wasn't the population to support so many separate Queues, and PGI dun goofed.
It should have been just 2 planets, one Clam, one Spheroid, and ignore factions altogether (aside from IS VS Clam) in the Solo Queue CW.

That way you combine the many tiny queues into one possibly sustainable queue.
These matches not contributing to the planet capture, but counting for events and full (Cbill) rewards...loyalty points as well (for whatever faction they chose)

[FupDup]

ScarecrowES, on 30 April 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

It's like it is in just about anything... In politics, you NEVER hear from the happy middle than makes up the majority of a populations. Those people are always too busy happily enjoying life to whine about anything that's inconsequential to them. The people who are contented with something never rally together in protest shouting, "We're actually pretty much happy with all of this, thanks!"

No, you only ever really hear from nutjobs on either end of the spectrum that have a strong negative opinion about something. Those are the people who always yell loudest. In fact, now that we have the internet - and nutjobs who used to be unable to spew their bile far enough for it to influence anything can send their craziness to the far reaches of the Earth and find other nutjobs to rally to their cause - modern political systems of any type (be they governments or video games) are just full of a minority of extremists pushing nonsense onto a majority of the population that, you know, is just pretty much ok with small improvements on the status quo.

I'll point to the recent argument on the size of the Phoenix Hawk. Russ actually brought this up in the townhall. People see a pic taken from a texture artist's computer and say, "holy cow, that mech is so BIG." Comparing it to the mechs next to it. But as I said, other people said, and now RUSS has said... how can you compare the size of a mech if you don't even have a properly-sized reference standing next to it to compare it to. The mechs standing on either side of that Phoenix Hawk were undergoing rescale, and yet people are screaming DOA based on size without having any way of seeing how large it is?

Your happy, well-reasoned middle... the normally silent majority does come out and speak on these issues... but is usually drowned out in a deluge of unintelligible moron-vomit.

The PGI-defenders are the opposite "political party" who yell just as loudly as the bittervets.

Pot, say hello to kettle for me.

[ScarecrowES]

Mcgral18, on 30 April 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

This was also a PGI mistake.

There wasn't the population to support so many separate Queues, and PGI dun goofed.
It should have been just 2 planets, one Clam, one Spheroid, and ignore factions altogether (aside from IS VS Clam) in the Solo Queue CW.

That way you combine the many tiny queues into one possibly sustainable queue.
These matches not contributing to the planet capture, but counting for events and full (Cbill) rewards...loyalty points as well (for whatever faction they chose)

I saw several suggestions last night about pure IS vs Clan combat for FW, ignoring factions... it was the first time I've been exposed to those suggenstions, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. It seems like your suggestion is an amalgam of two different ones I saw suggested last night.

I'm completely NOT in favor of any change that removes the importance of factions from the FW system. Doing that basically invalidates every premise the mode is based on. Why have it at all, at that point?

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

The PGI-defenders are the opposite "political party" who yell just as loudly as the bittervets.

Pot, say hello to kettle for me.

Sometimes PGI needs to be defended, and sometimes condemned. Like I said, there are nutjobs at both ends of the spectrum who will refuse to see a situation as anything other than what THEY want - regardless of whether it's good for the community as a whole. Neither represents the majority. Occasionally one or the other will be right on a given topic. A broken clock still tells the right time twice a day.

[Lazor Sharp]

ScarecrowES, on 30 April 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

I actually agree with this. PvE is a massive resource suck. While I would personally LOVE another Mechwarrior PvE game... and honestly I would probably actually PREFER that to a multiplayer-only game, if given the option... for what MWO is, it's one of the worst thing PGI could be investing on.

Now, parts of what is needed to make PvE work... AI development, inclusion of vehicle and infantry, and those sorts of things... larger scale maps... event scripting and map state changes... all of THOSE things would actually make for a better multiplayer game too. You can't have dynamic game modes in multiplayer - things that MWO needs, really - without a lot of those things. So not ALL of that work would lack benefit to the multiplayer system of MWO... but a lot would.

SO MUCH THIS^^^^^

Single Player PvE Campaign / Missions / Maps with 4 man CooP is sorely needed for all of the solo / 2-4 friends that need a Throw the Ball around in the Back Yard once a week level of game play that a very high % of MWO's player base would play vs. MWO PvP.......

great training ground for new players.....

All SP PvE Assets created can be used in PvP modes of play....

I personally would buy a Kick Starter of a Pack of 6-12 PvE Campaign / Mission / Maps, for early play, with the first 3-6 coming open for public play 3 mo later, than the next 3-6 6 mo later.....

Then just sell Campaign / Missions / maps, along with a few new Mech's every Quarter......

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 30 April 2016 - 12:52 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Lazor Sharp, on 30 April 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

All SP PvE Assets can be used in PvP modes of play....

Except the AI and UI elements.

I'll give you one guess on which parts are going to consume the most in terms of time and resources for implementing PvE.

[ScarecrowES]

Lazor Sharp, on 30 April 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

SO MUCH THIS^^^^^

Single Player PvE Campaign / Missions / Maps with 4 man CooP is sorely needed for all of the solo / 2-4 friends that need a Throw the Ball around in the Back Yard once a week level of game play that a very high % of MWO's player base would play vs. MWO PvP.......

great training ground for new players.....

All SP PvE Assets can be used in PvP modes of play....

I personally would buy a Kick Starter of a Pack of 6 PvE Campaign / Mission / Maps, for early play, with the first 3 coming open for public play 3 mo later, than the next 3 6 mo later.....

than just sell Campaign / Missions / maps, along with a few new Mech's every Quarter......

Ummm... you got the part about me saying that, as much as I'd love PvE, it's exactly the WRONG use of resources for PGI if we ever hope for MWO to work?

[Khobai]

Quote

And I go ahead and say Long Tom is pretty stupid in the current iteration?

nah its fine

if you dont want to get crushed by it, win the scout matches

its that simple. if your team loses the scout matches you SHOULD be seriously disadvantaged in invasion.

Quote

Ummm... you got the part about me saying that, as much as I'd love PvE, it's exactly the WRONG use of resources for PGI if we ever hope for MWO to work?

Not if its coop.

[Mcgral18]

ScarecrowES, on 30 April 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

I saw several suggestions last night about pure IS vs Clan combat for FW, ignoring factions... it was the first time I've been exposed to those suggenstions, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. It seems like your suggestion is an amalgam of two different ones I saw suggested last night.

I'm completely NOT in favor of any change that removes the importance of factions from the FW system. Doing that basically invalidates every premise the mode is based on. Why have it at all, at that point?

It gives the new players a test of what CW is, without the PUG Stomping.

That's it. No long term investment or changes in the faction map, but can still give them a mechbay or two


Not referring to anything, that's just what my idea of a Solo CW Queue would be. Something with such a small playerbase doesn't need 20 planets, where the majority of the players are locked out from ever seeing each other.

[ScarecrowES]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 April 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

Except the AI and UI elements.

I'll give you one guess on which parts are going to consume the most in terms of time and resources for implementing PvE.

Honestly, the AI and event coding would be of great benefit to multiplayer... the systems, not the implementation, mind you. Right now, one of the primary reasons we're stuck on with such simple symmetrical game modes is a lack of AI and event programming. PGI has almost no capacity to have anything dymanic happen during matches and on their maps in the current game state.

So game modes which would be very interesting for MWO are ruled out by virtue of a lack of coding for these events. Conquest is a pretty easy mode to code for, but it's really fun for a game based around big stompy robots of destruction. A Rush-style game mode is impossible without dynamic drop zones and map sectioning... not to mention all the individual goals on different sections of the map. Escort missions wouldn't be possible without AI. And so on.

If you want something more than just modes that are based on "kill everything with a red dorito over its head" or "stand in a specific place for a specific amount of time," we'll at least need AI and dynamic event systems. PvE needs those too, but so much more. PvE is largely a significant investment into game assets, more than hard coding.