101 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

WARNING: OPINION PIECE

Edited to be less hurtful. 5/2/16 Derv

PGI appears to mostly care about (1 bringing in enough money to pay their bills and 2) maintaining control of the Mechwarrior license so they can continue to squeeze the blood from the turnip as long as it stays profitable. Listening to and asking for help from the community appears as a distant third.

They're a business. Staying fiscally solvent should be their primary goal. However right now the way they're going about it is like when you're playing an RTS and are clearly going to lose but you keep pumping out cheap mechs units to delay the inevitable.

PGI could solve a lot of their gaming and financial problems by bringing in volunteers from the community who would do stuff for free. Yes the initial hassle of integrating the community seems like a big hurdle. Still it would be worth it if things such as map design, community interaction/management (Tina is clearly overwhelmed or doesn't care), playtesting, etc. could all easily be done by the talented members of this community that have been doing this stuff for years. It could potentially free up PGI to work on more core features while providing a sense of belonging to the rest of us.

Yet right now they clearly have concerns about control and don't appear to understand or appreciate how this community got by with a game from 2001 (for over a decade) with little to no help from the original developer. This is a small but closely bound group with many people going back to the original games for old people computers. This is the same group that created 3 different mods for Mechwarrior 4 Mercs simply because Microsoft left the IP blowing in the wind. And now it appears we're approaching this moment again. Different song, same tune.

Still... I can't blame PGI members for avoiding this community sometimes, this forum especially. SOME OF YOU (myself included) who dwell here act like, by and large, awful human beings. 50% of you make your points by throwing out insults (great way to persuade someone to your side btw) and the other half suffer from OCD and type... way too much. Hmm (note to self: type less). Hence why we have filter systems for the community like NGNG.

Nonetheless if PGI wishes to continue this game they should feel they have an obligation to interact with us mech fanatics. That they're appearing to choose not to be part of the community (how they're being perceived is what matters most) is saying more about their intentions than words ever could to a lot of former diehards.

Extend a hand PGI. You might be surprised that it won't be bitten. It likely will increase your profits, improve your infrastructure, and help your standing in the video game industry. Include us. Because in the end this community will survive. At the rate you are going; you may not.

Edited by dervishx5, 02 May 2016 - 06:33 AM.

[Lily from animove]

PGI isn't avoiding us much, in fact PGI does quite a good job interacting and listening with the community. You don't find tha many other devs doing this outside the Indy dev market.

Sure MWO isn't free of issues, but most things we rant about are on quite a high level.

[dervishx5]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

PGI isn't avoiding us much, in fact PGI does quite a good job interacting and listening with the community. You don't find tha many other devs doing this outside the Indy dev market.

Sure MWO isn't free of issues, but most things we rant about are on quite a high level.

If by "interacting and listening with" you mean "have NGNG lob softball questions at so-called townhall meetings" then yes I suppose you're right.

[Bud Crue]

dervish,

The slight edits to your OP totally changed its tone in my view. I retract my comments.

Edited by Bud Crue, 02 May 2016 - 03:42 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

On this Lily you and I must disagree.

PGI has proven over the years that its their way or no way. I can accept that some ideas from the community are just to complex to program or they have a different vision.

But things like community map design come to mind. Rather than discuss this in a town hall meeting it gets ignored. I have heard the calls of it costs 250k to make a map, it would take too much time for devs to check the maps. Those concerns where also discussed by the community. Put them on the test server, let the community play them for a month. Vote for the best and then let PGI review that single map to be added.

Again I understand PGI needs to make money. They are a business. But excluding the population and hiding behind twitch only causes more players, both old and new to shrug and move on.

[Lily from animove]

Tom Sawyer, on 02 May 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

On this Lily you and I must disagree.

PGI has proven over the years that its their way or no way. I can accept that some ideas from the community are just to complex to program or they have a different vision.

But things like community map design come to mind. Rather than discuss this in a town hall meeting it gets ignored. I have heard the calls of it costs 250k to make a map, it would take too much time for devs to check the maps. Those concerns where also discussed by the community. Put them on the test server, let the community play them for a month. Vote for the best and then let PGI review that single map to be added.

Again I understand PGI needs to make money. They are a business. But excluding the population and hiding behind twitch only causes more players, both old and new to shrug and move on.

Hardly any MMO lets the community deisgn maps, this isn't Counterstrike with private hosted gaming servers.
IPG was doing it's own thing, PGI did a lot of what palyers wanted. but surely not only what players wanted.
The calls of making a map costing 250k was done by IGP.

So you are messing up a lot stuff which comes from the old IGP world.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

Hardly any MMO lets the community deisgn maps, this isn't Counterstrike with private hosted gaming servers.
IPG was doing it's own thing, PGI did a lot of what palyers wanted. but surely not only what players wanted.
The calls of making a map costing 250k was done by IGP.

So you are messing up a lot stuff which comes from the old IGP world.

The original starcraft ran on community made maps.

I remember there were maps where if you completed the end game objective it would show nude images of Emma Watson as a reward.

Makes me feel old but damn those were the days.

[Lugh]

Tom Sawyer, on 02 May 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

On this Lily you and I must disagree.

PGI has proven over the years that its their way or no way. I can accept that some ideas from the community are just to complex to program or they have a different vision.

But things like community map design come to mind. Rather than discuss this in a town hall meeting it gets ignored. I have heard the calls of it costs 250k to make a map, it would take too much time for devs to check the maps. Those concerns where also discussed by the community. Put them on the test server, let the community play them for a month. Vote for the best and then let PGI review that single map to be added.

Again I understand PGI needs to make money. They are a business. But excluding the population and hiding behind twitch only causes more players, both old and new to shrug and move on.

I cannot accept that some of the ideas are too complex to program. They were already programmed in 1998 and in other games since.

There is nothing keeping PGI from putting all the best of the past parts of this franchise in to this game, except for PGI's unwillingness to acknowledge that someone else may have done something better.

It CAN be done. PGI just CAN'T be bothered.

Edited by Lugh, 02 May 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[Lily from animove]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

The original starcraft ran on community made maps.

I remember there were maps where if you completed the end game objective it would show nude images of Emma Watson as a reward.

Makes me feel old but damn those were the days.

becaue starcraft is totally an MMO. dude? rly?

Lugh, on 02 May 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

I cannot accept that some of the ideas are too complex to program. They were already programmed in 1998 and in other games since.

There is nothing keeping PGI from putting all the best of the past parts of this franchise in to this game, except for PGI's unwillingness to acknowledge that someone else may have done something better.

It CAN be done. PGI just CAN'T be bothered.

care to explain these "bests" of the past? The old MW games were good for their times, but their pointless broken AI wouldn't find any acceptance today. many things of the 90's were great fo the 90's but horribly fail today.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

becaue starcraft is totally an MMO. dude? rly?

Its not an MMO? *My whole world implodes*

What is it then?

[dervishx5]

The "massive" part in MMO is pretty subjective here.

[Paigan]

dervishx5, on 02 May 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

... assumptions ...
... assumptions ...
Truth about a company being a company (who would have thought!)
... assumptions ...
... spite ...
... arrogance ...
... assumptions ...

Thread done.
Next.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

dervishx5, on 02 May 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

The "massive" part in MMO is pretty subjective here.

Hahaha. Made me laugh.

[dervishx5]

Paigan, on 02 May 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

Thread done.
Next.

Edit: actually, no. This doesn't warrant a meme.

But thank you for proving my point about the forum.

Edited by dervishx5, 02 May 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Noesis]

PGI had a low budget to start with as they are a more smaller independant studio that some of the more larger players in the gaming industry (but perhaps more free as a result), likely with having or have had contraints to pay monies back to investors and "the bank", but gave huge expectations to the fanbase of what the vision was that they had for MWO initially.

They lost traction with the playerbase when it became and remains apparent that selling Mechs is the main priority and they failed to deliver on some of the initial hype they presented that would have made MWO better today had they delivered on it.

I still am capable of admiring what PGI has done and are continuing to do with their presentation of MWO (which is still an enjoyable game to play and a good interpretation of the Battletech universe) and this whilst understanding that there will be real contraints on them with what they can achieve and how much they trust to place into their game as perhaps a result of this apparent MWO "history".

I'm still investing in the game with purchases as I still value doing this at the moment, but left with thoughts at times of "what could have been". This especially with wanting to see more persistant elements and more gameplay options to the strategical impact of Faction play. So economy, espionage, planet base buidling, overheads, logistics etc. In others words fleshing out some of the realities of the battletech universe from a perspective of not being in the cockpit of a battlemech and providing a more meaningful impact to wanting to get into one. These kind of elements described as likely features in the initial sales pitch for Factional Warfare.

I'm also starting to ask myself how much longevity MWO has and wether or how it will exist when the license review comes up.

[-Natural Selection-]

I am surprised they had not been willing to accept community maps.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

If it is true that game developers would be better served creating development tools for their communities and modders to use, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If that were true the only thing that would mean is there is room for innovation and improvement in terms of business models and development cycles.

At some point someone will do it, and eventually it'll become a de facto industry standard.

I think its a good idea but considering game devs don't do it and opt for a more proprietary approach, there could be a reason for it.

[dervishx5]

Noesis, on 02 May 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

I'm also starting to ask myself how much longevity MWO has and wether or how it will exist when the license review comes up.

Well regarding the license, I have a feeling that the upcoming Battletech game will be a sleeper hit like much of the other stuff that those guys have made. That will probably add a few more players to MWO. However when (not if) PGI fails to capitalize on yet another opportunity like they've done so many times before it likely wont make a difference. Other more successful studios/companies may take a second look at the Battletech franchise if the turn based game works out and choose to acquire the license instead.

But that's merely speculation.

Edited by dervishx5, 02 May 2016 - 05:32 AM.

[MechWarrior319348]

Only to the first part of your thread, where you say they only care about money.

Edited by Gigliowanananacom, 02 May 2016 - 05:39 AM.

[Paigan]

dervishx5, on 02 May 2016 - 05:21 AM, said:

Edit: actually, no. This doesn't warrant a meme.

But thank you for proving my point about the forum.

No. Wait.

What my post expressed was:
You waltz in with absolute arrogance like you are god almighty in person and you alone know the definite truth (which, tbh, is a really simplistic one. And simplistic absolute truths are only expressed by people who ... you know ...).
So if there was any proof about low a intellectual level on the forum, it was my post about you :-).
I'm sorry if it was too subtle. Hope it's clearer now.

On a more constructive note:

I'm a software developer myself and let my tell a little from my experience:
- There are ALWAYS delays due to unforseeable details and/or minor human error. Things get late, are shipped unfinished, not properly tested. It's ALWAYS the case.
- One (meaning PGI as well) has to build upon a stack of third-party tools (e.g. engine) with their own problems, causing more problems for the actual development and it's not even the developer's fault.
- Yes, corps have to earn money. Yes, sometimes it's a little "minimum viability" in one corner or another. But that does NOT mean that corps are those evil monsters who don't care about their product or their customers. Things are just VERY complicated. And if one can't accept that, one is nothing more than a child.

I listened to the recent town hall a little bit.

My impression:
- Again, things are just much more complicated than we players (me included) perceive or think and Russ seems to be very motivated to find good solutions in the grand scheme
- I also had SOME (little) doubts if the decisions made are always the best (e.g. he said something like FW was meant to be some occasional commando mission between quick play matches or something like that. Well, then they should have done it differently and not in the way they did)


I have my frustration moments as well, but given my experience with such complicated matters, I settle with:
- If I did it, I had the same problems and would make just as many mistakes. I would do 1-2 things better, but 1-2 things worse, so in the end ... meh. It is what it is
- I'm happy that someone else does it for me and I can just login any play after 8 hours of similar problems. If some things are not as good as they could be, I'm okay with that.


But you my friend, are nothing but spewing spite and arrogant assumptions.

So again:
Nonsense thread. Next.

Edited by Paigan, 02 May 2016 - 05:48 AM.