413 replies to this topic

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Realistically the lights should be a fair bit bigger too. Hit reg just doesn't deal with with those tiny *** hit boxes.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 May 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

An M1A2 Abrams tank is 68 tons, roughly the same size as a 46 ton T-90, and smaller than an 18 wheeler truck which is significantly lighter when unloaded.

Good luck finding a consistent point of reference in the real world for how big a 25 ton 'Mech should be.

Well, true dat. The T-90 is still a fair bit smaller then an Abrams. But in this game currently, the Abrams is the size of a Maus, while the T-90 is the size of an M113 and an M113 would be the size of your family sedan. But a Sheridan(medium mech) is the size of a King Tiger....

As for a decent point of reference, perhaps they use the average height of a 6 foot man, who has to fit inside the cockpit. From there you could build the mech around it. Right now, I doubt the man would even fit inside the cockpits of those light mechs, and still have room in there for any equipment.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Pjwned, on 01 May 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

That isn't what MWO is though, and it never will be. Part of that is true in that each mech has (or is supposed to have) a purpose, but unlike Battletech that isn't accomplished by making smaller mechs worse because you can have more of them, since obviously you're only piloting 1 mech at a time in MWO and thus it makes zero sense for smaller mechs to be flat out worse.



That's the thing though, big mechs are not always better in MWO because that's one of few things PGI actually did right, but if you listen to peoples' screeching and whining their goal is to make it so that big mechs are always better.



That's basically how it is in MWO.



What does that have to do with class roles and such? That has everything to do with equipment balance and nothing to do with weight class.



Harebrained Schemes is already working on it with their Battletech game, go play that if that's what you want instead of trying to shove that **** in where it doesn't belong.



Clearly a travesty, obviously the Marauder wasn't good enough if you had to even consider using something lighter since mech variety is blasphemy.

This game was initially marketed as a 4 man coop, mission based ,PVE game. Its what got me into it in the first place. What it is now is just ugh. Plus is was supposed to start in like 3015, which was going to be a nice change, getting away from the Clans for awhile....I was truly looking forward to playing that game.

As for light mechs being worse, that is based on what you want to use it for. If your wanting to compare a light mech's firepower and ability to tank vs an assault, yes its worse. If its the armor, yes, its worse. Likewise, the Assault doesnt have the mobility or agility of a light, which is about their primary reason for even existing, scouting and recon. This game with its meta kinda makes lights superior to bigger mechs since they are faster, insanely small, and are able to pack in some serious firepower, putting them on par with big mechs. This game basically made lights like every game makes small stuff, overall better then the bigger **** in every way but sheer on paper numbers for armor.

How it is in MWO is Lights are the run gun, CoD, ADHD shoot everything, cant be hit, bunny hopping mechs of doom.
Mediums are the slower, oversized, easy targets that dont have the firepower of a heavy, dont have the armor of heavy, dont have the speed of a light and just kinda are pretty meh.
Heavies are the best overall balance
Assaults are big *** slow targets.

When HBS makes thier game, believe me, I will be im sure. If it ends up being more then a turn based TDM game.

Marauder IIC, it moved like 46kph, it was 100 tons, and I had to keep up with convoys...I needed something with more speed/agility, so, the Marauder IIC was out of the question for that mission. MWO, everything is a TDM, so all you need is either a super up gunned light, or a heavy mech. Mediums and Assaults are just for those who havent gotten the memo that lights and assaults are out.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 01 May 2016 - 08:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 May 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

This game was initially marketed as a 4 man coop, mission based ,PVE game. Its what got me into it in the first place. What it is now is just ugh. Plus is was supposed to start in like 3015, which was going to be a nice change, getting away from the Clans for awhile....I was truly looking forward to playing that game.

That was MW5, a completely different item.

This is MWO, or as I prefer: Shooty Stompy Robots

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 May 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 01 May 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

That was MW5, a completely different item.

This is MWO, or as I prefer: Shooty Stompy Robots

Well, that game became this one, since I didnt have to reregister to this game, it kept my same info from when I first heard about this game.

I call this game: Call of Duty: Robot Wars.

[Pjwned]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 May 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

This game was initially marketed as a 4 man coop, mission based ,PVE game. Its what got me into it in the first place. What it is now is just ugh. Plus is was supposed to start in like 3015, which was going to be a nice change, getting away from the Clans for awhile....I was truly looking forward to playing that game.

Too bad so sad I guess? It should've been clear from the start of actual development on the game that you weren't getting that with MWO.

Again, play HBS Battletech instead.

Quote

As for light mechs being worse, that is based on what you want to use it for. If your wanting to compare a light mech's firepower and ability to tank vs an assault, yes its worse. If its the armor, yes, its worse. Likewise, the Assault doesnt have the mobility or agility of a light, which is about their primary reason for even existing, scouting and recon.

Yes, light mechs being balanced by their small profile and speed is fine.

Quote

This game with its meta kinda makes lights superior to bigger mechs since they are faster, insanely small, and are able to pack in some serious firepower, putting them on par with big mechs. This game basically made lights like every game makes small stuff, overall better then the bigger **** in every way but sheer on paper numbers for armor.

Let's say light mechs being superior is actually true and we just ignore all the drawbacks of light mechs such as short range and low armor and NOT having firepower on par with big mechs.

The answer is to fix the meta, which has far more to do with equipment and overdone quirks, and not just nerf light mechs because asspained morons can't handle smaller mechs being worth something.

Quote

How it is in MWO is Lights are the run gun, CoD, ADHD shoot everything, cant be hit, bunny hopping mechs of doom.
Mediums are the slower, oversized, easy targets that dont have the firepower of a heavy, dont have the armor of heavy, dont have the speed of a light and just kinda are pretty meh.
Heavies are the best overall balance
Assaults are big *** slow targets.

Aside from your exaggerations, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote

When HBS makes thier game, believe me, I will be im sure. If it ends up being more then a turn based TDM game.

Cool, and in the meantime there's no point in trying to make MWO something that it's not.

Quote

Marauder IIC, it moved like 46kph, it was 100 tons, and I had to keep up with convoys...I needed something with more speed/agility, so, the Marauder IIC was out of the question for that mission. MWO, everything is a TDM, so all you need is either a super up gunned light, or a heavy mech. Mediums and Assaults are just for those who havent gotten the memo that lights and assaults are out.

Mhm, very accurate assessment of weight classes there, sure.

[Nightshade24]

Rampage, on 01 May 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

I am curious how you come to the conclusion that these two tanks have the same volume? The KV1 clearly has more volume and you even say it also weighs 3 tons more. In my mind, anything on the tank contributes to its volume (mass). Having a turret that is twice as large as the KV1s means that its volume will be increased by at least the percentage of the larger turret to the smaller turret in ratio to the rest of the tank.

Unless you are defining volume as only the free space inside the tank? Sorry, I do not follow.

I defined the similar (key word 'similar') by most peoples arguments above.
ie: "Look at this 20 tonne mech (Firemoth/ Dasher), it's the same size as the Direwolf!". It obviously isn't. It's volume is probably 700% more smaller (but increased surface area for it's size due to it's more exposed parts and far stretching). But relative to many mechs in BT: The size difference here is much smaller and even comparable to simply variants of a mech and not even the differences between 2 separate chassis. I was demonstrating how a 'minor' increase of turret size (and no. Mathematically that isn't double.).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Pjwned, on 01 May 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

Again, play HBS Battletech instead.

Cool, and in the meantime there's no point in trying to make MWO something that it's not.

When will that game be out?

[Lily from animove]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

Actually, in the "lore" many mechs are sized incredibly dumbly. The famous Clan Omnimech scale chart is the worst example of this.



What are some of the sins here?
-60 ton mech being the same size as a 75 ton mech
-85 ton mech being the same size as a 100 ton mech
-80 ton mech being the same size as a 95 ton mech
-All of the heavies rivaling the 100-ton assault in size
-20 ton mech being almost the same size as a 100 ton mech

Tabletop's scaling is really, really broken beyond any form of salvaging.

it is reasonable, in any way the BT lore has, Why does mroe tonnage mean more size in height? it has not to. It'smostlikely some internal compartments and their strength dictating what a mech can arry. Nothing at this point in the lore is wrong.

But MWO plays like a FPS, when it comes to the no's and go's of choices. And in such a surrounding geometry does matter a lot. Thats why The lore was fine and MWO just needs the adjustments. Compare the WHK and the MDD/TBR in these pics the WHK has way fatter legs and a more boold Torso, that alone is makign up the tonnage difference. it owuld by logic not require more size to add those 20tons ontop of a TBR.

theres just lore, physics and gaming aspecs in conflict. and since we play a game, its the aspect that will be in charge dictating the "why" we do it.

[Lugh]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

When will that game be out?

Next year this time...probably.

[AmazingOnionMan]

Many people agreeing with rescaling being good. Almost all of them saying to use the smaller mechs as benchmarks.
This makes me happy.

PGI doing the opposite...

[Lily from animove]

AmazingOnionMan, on 02 May 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Many people agreeing with rescaling being good. Almost all of them saying to use the smaller mechs as benchmarks.
This makes me happy.

PGI doing the opposite...

its does not matter that much as long as the relative scale between the mechs is ok.

[AmazingOnionMan]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

its does not matter that much as long as the relative scale between the mechs is ok.

Ah, but I beg to differ. The bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. And the last thing we need is mechs that are even quicker to kill, so they'll probably have to to something about that. With the balance of this game being as precarious as it is, chances are that they'll tug on one string here and lose their trousers over there.
And most of the mechs feel oversized to begin with to me.

[Barantor]

AmazingOnionMan, on 02 May 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

Ah, but I beg to differ. The bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. And the last thing we need is mechs that are even quicker to kill, so they'll probably have to to something about that. With the balance of this game being as precarious as it is, chances are that they'll tug on one string here and lose their trousers over there.
And most of the mechs feel oversized to begin with to me.

You do realize though that all the problems and all the balance issues they have had up to this point are because they didn't use a solid base line for a lot of things and went on 'feel' right?

I would rather they base things on math rather than feel, because at least it gives them a base point at which to build off of and we aren't guessing as hard if the next mech is going to micro size or macro size compared to what the other mechs around it are.

There is going to be a lot of turmoil, change does that every time to this game. It is better that they build a foundation on stone rather than the shifting sands which seem to be this game.

Lots of folks I know and have played this game don't like that they don't know if the game is going to be chaos after every patch. The more they can get solid on the foundation, the more little adjustments happen rather than large sweeping ones, but it takes some large sweeping ones to get that foundation right this far into it.

If anyone thinks things are going to be overall better in the short term then they might want to take a break. This move by PGI is a long term thought for once and I am in approval.

[AmazingOnionMan]

You don't really see me disagreeing with their decison to do this rescale, do you?
The only thing I disagree with is PGI's take on the actual scale. And quirks, but that is a whole other discussion

[Catra Lanis]

Wintersdark, on 01 May 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

How do you figure? Thats basically what they did. I'm not sure if an existing mech is the reference or the average density of all mechs is used as a reference but either way, they picked a reference point and are scaling to it.

They are now as far as I understand. What I'm asking is why didn't they (if they used a reference already in the beginning) make sure that every mech they released afterwards was the correct scale even if it meant a delay for each mech?

This sounds like building your house and not installing the plastic pipes for wiring so when the house is done you have to tear up the walls and redo it. It's more work in the long run.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I am a little surprised to see the Blackjack on the list. One of the major components in a mechs size should be the engine. The fusion engine should have a standard density, so as mass goes up volume goes up. This means that mechs with high capacity engines must have larger torsos to accommodate those engines.
The Blackjack with a paltry 235 maximum engine size only needs a torso the size of a Commando to accommodate it. Even if we assume all Blackjacks can mount a 295 rated engine (they cannot), this only puts us at the comparable size of a Firestarter. Although in this case I suppose it is reasonable to assume all the extra room on the 235 maximum variants is filled by those internal structure buffs.

The next thing I would do is normalize maximum engine size for all variants of a chassis so you don’t have a weird issue, like with the CN9-D, with an engine capacity of 390. All Centurions should have an engine cap of 300, the CN9-D just happens to carry the largest engine that will fit it chassis (to me this makes much more sense and should have been the way it was implemented, although that is a horse that has long since died). This same trick works for the Blackjack, maximum engine of 235 all chassis, and massive internal structure quirks to justify its massive size.

[Davers]

Catra Lanis, on 01 May 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Why didn't they pick let's say the Atlas and used it for a reference from the very beginning? Seems to me that they could have saved themselves a lot of time and work if they'd done it properly from the get go.

PGI had a lot of, shall we say ideas, when they first started making mechs. Most of which they seemed to have dropped. For example, why are the Centurion and Trebuchet so tall? It's because they are LRM mechs, and their height was to allow them to see further and over cover.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Davers, on 02 May 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

PGI had a lot of, shall we say ideas, when they first started making mechs. Most of which they seemed to have dropped. For example, why are the Centurion and Trebuchet so tall? It's because they are LRM mechs, and their height was to allow them to see further and over cover.

Seriously? Thats how they designed some of the mechs?

Musta been Warhawk is a PPC sniper mech, so lets hang its guns around its ankles so it cant shoot and stay semi hull down like it should be able to. Lets make hte Dire Wolf the size of your average Victorian house just because its a whale and whales are big.

Light mechs, they are fast, fast things are tiny, light mechs are tiny and fast.

Catapult has big ears, it has LRMs, it should be huge.

Atlas, its the premiere assault mech, it should be massive, like Pacific Rim Jaegar massive.

[Davers]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Seriously? Thats how they designed some of the mechs?

Musta been Warhawk is a PPC sniper mech, so lets hang its guns around its ankles so it cant shoot and stay semi hull down like it should be able to. Lets make hte Dire Wolf the size of your average Victorian house just because its a whale and whales are big.

Light mechs, they are fast, fast things are tiny, light mechs are tiny and fast.

Catapult has big ears, it has LRMs, it should be huge.

Atlas, its the premiere assault mech, it should be massive, like Pacific Rim Jaegar massive.

It was their philosophy at the beginning, but it has changed for the most part. The Nova is reminiscent of it though, since it's size is completely tied to the fact that Clan small and medium lasers were not sharing ghost heat at launch.