653 replies to this topic

[Moldur]

180-200m is the sweet spot for brawling with small lasers and lrms

[MovinTarget]

PLCA99, on 13 May 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

All of my LRM boats also pack ER Medium Lasers. All but one of them pack 4 of them. I move with the group mostly, depending on the map. I've had plenty of people compliment the way I play my LRM boats so I will continue to play them in FW and QD. While I don't mind hints and tips, what I don't want is someone who probably doesn't know how to truly pilot a build tell me I shouldn't use it. You are more than welcome to your opinions but so am I

If you can boat responsibly more power to you. Perhaps this thread does not apply. Many people simply can be bothered to bring there own tags and narcs and wind up useless when the enemy is at 500m under ecm cover or left trying to kill lights with lurms

[Zerberus]

Rushin Roulette, on 09 May 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

Yes and no to this topic.

If you play LRMs by hanging far back behind your team and spamming them at random targets using locks from friendlies during a brawl you are a waste of tonnage. There will be obstructions such as buildings, Hills and friendly mechs stopping you dealing damage to the enemy, the teammates are fighting against a larger enemy number because you are not using your own armour for the team effort. In short, you are a waste of tonnage, space and manpower to the team (the same can be said for extreme range snipers imo)

If you play LRMs offensively, pushing together with your team getting your own locks (using NARC, BAP, Tag UAV and shooting blind if you have no other choice), then feel free to bring as many LRMs as you want. They have an effective range of 180m+, that means if you are standing 150 meters behind your team in plain view of everyone, you can see where your LRMs are hitting, stop shooting when the target is behind cover (by changing to a better target) and you can be targeted by the enemy yourself, which in turn means the rest of your team are taking less damage and your whole team survives longer to deal more damage.

Thank you.

The statement someone made of "don´t bring a weapons system that requires the unwitting cooperation of your team" or something along those lines is kind of ridiculous in CW. Cooperation in CW is explicitly preferred, and not really optional.

To properly focus fire, one locks a target and calls it, and everone that is focusing their fire should be locking that target, if nothing else to see where to shoot it.

And that is all a good LRM boat needs to be devastating in CW, a team that actually understands what teamplay means and how to do it effectively. Normally a good LRM Boat will be getting his own locks if possible, anyway, often providing the team with more intel that the team sometimes provides them with.

And even against fast lights LRM spam is often more effective than Streaks if you can do it at 200m+, becasue they usually hit the legs. And guess what, that guy that needs a lock for his streaks? Well guess who´s spotter he is

As a blanket statement, No , absolutely no. They are an underperforming wepons system, but used properly in a correctly functioning team they have their place in CW as well as the rest of the game, just like everything else.

Edited by Zerberus, 13 May 2016 - 04:14 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Zerberus, on 13 May 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Thank you.

The statement someone made of "don´t bring a weapons system that requires the unwitting cooperation of your team" or something along those lines is kind of ridiculous in CW. Cooperation in CW is explicitly preferred, and not really optional.

To properly focus fire, one locks a target and calls it, and everone that is focusing their fire should be locking that target, if nothing else to see where to shoot it.

And that is all a good LRM boat needs to be devastating in CW, a team that actually understands what teamplay means and how to do it effectively. Normally a good LRM Boat will be getting his own locks if possible, anyway, often providing the team with more intel that the team sometimes provides them with.

And even against fast lights LRM spam is often more effective than Streaks if you can do it at 200m+, becasue they usually hit the legs. And guess what, that guy that needs a lock for his streaks? Well guess who´s spotter he is

As a blanket statement, No , absolutely no. They are an underperforming wepons system, but used properly in a correctly functioning team they have their place in CW as well as the rest of the game, just like everything else.

I was the one that made that comment. And what you described was coordinated fire. What happens in reality is more that half the pugs bring lrm boats, there is no drop caller, no coordination and lrms are not as effective as direct fire in those scenarios.

I also stated that if a 12 man decided to bring a wave dedicated to lrm boating they would coordinate all the tools like tags, narcs, spotters and such and do it effectively.

The point of the OP was that to solo drop into FW boating lrms is less likely to be of real help than direct fire weapons. Unless you can get your own locks (because you have no guarantee that anyone will effectively spot for you) and can quickly kill mechs that need to die (even with artemis, you cannot target components to maximize efficient killing)... its just not as effective as a solo player in a team play game. Sure you might get tons of damage, but if you lose b/c you didn't kill the fast enough...

Lrms seldom maximize their effectiveness with a single mech sans coordination where you don't require your teammates to get locks and shoot energy and ballistic weapons.

So perhaps the OP should have stated "don't bring lrms to FP as a solo player", perhaps that would be more applicable.

Edited by MovinTarget, 13 May 2016 - 04:30 PM.

[Deckard Caine Sender]

There is a world of difference between someone who has LRMs as a major component of their loadout but moves with the group and has direct fire backups and someone sitting 1000 meters back raining on targets that they can't see and the target lock is lost 8 seconds before the missiles get there. The first is still an asset for the team, the second... not so much.

[MovinTarget]

Deckard Caine Sender, on 13 May 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

There is a world of difference between someone who has LRMs as a major component of their loadout but moves with the group and has direct fire backups and someone sitting 1000 meters back raining on targets that they can't see and the target lock is lost 8 seconds before the missiles get there. The first is still an asset for the team, the second... not so much.

Right, I am in a unit that runs seriously (most of the time) and we would think of bringing LRMs unless the DC calls for it BEFORE the match. Even if the DC says "bring whatever you want" most of us wouldn't bring LRMs unless a sub-group of us were conspiring shenanigans...

[Fiona Marshe]

Clan account: 2x LRM30 mech with lots of lasers (cMdPulse and cMdLas). Had to drop the ammo a little for more heatsinks as the waves weren't lasting long enough to use it. Bring ammo for 1.5 waves and expend the mech with close range lasers for respawn.

My best damage numbers are when the team works and functions (700+ damage on first mech). If the teams folds in 20 seconds (seen it happen) it doesn't matter what weapons you bring, you just can't support ineptitude.

[MischiefSC]

If LRMs we're effective then effective teams would bring them

They are not, so they don't.

Yes, I get that there's people who play with LRMs and do okay.

Whoever you are, this isn't you. Especially on Clan mechs where mobility is a powerful key as is weapon synergy you'll do more for your team getting good with direct fire weapons and staying in the shuffle.

However bads gonna bad. Going to assume that all those teams that crush you match after match after match, who win competitive tournaments and are demonstratively better at the game "just don't understand how effective LRMs can be".

Yes they do. It's why they don't use them.

If you're in an LRM boat you are almost certainly sandbagging your team. If you're in a 12man and your team is aware and built to support you as part of the strats and your team wins easily 90% of your matches, great. You're on a very short list. Do what you're doing.

The rest of you are vultures, sacrificing your teammates and contributing to your teams failure to artificially pad your stats with ineffective damage. You're poison in the well and in some ways your team would do better if you were a disco - at least then they wouldn't accidentally try to count on you to be useful and be let down.

[MovinTarget]

Fiona Marshe, on 13 May 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Clan account: 2x LRM30 mech with lots of lasers (cMdPulse and cMdLas). Had to drop the ammo a little for more heatsinks as the waves weren't lasting long enough to use it. Bring ammo for 1.5 waves and expend the mech with close range lasers for respawn.

My best damage numbers are when the team works and functions (700+ damage on first mech). If the teams folds in 20 seconds (seen it happen) it doesn't matter what weapons you bring, you just can't support ineptitude.

700+ dmg is great, however how much of that damage contributes to the death of mechs?

I guess my goal and the goal of those that bring direct fire mechs is to take enemy mechs off the field. Not suppress them. KILL them. Dead.

LRMs can sometimes suppress the enemy, maybe buy time for your team to set up, but they don't quickly take mechs off the field. They are great against players that don't know how to use cover, but against seasoned fights? Good luck.

All I'm saying is that depending on heavy LRM usage is limiting your potential. It is limiting to your ability to do what the team needs accomplished. When everything is going right, yes they are great and easy to use. But if your enemies are in your face/under ecm/ moving quickly through cover with radar dep, you are in trouble.

[justcallme A S H]

LRMs essentially only work against a bunch of disorganised players or Tier 4/5 guys that make their way into FP and don't know how to avoid LRM fire.

Edited by R31Nismoid, 13 May 2016 - 07:23 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Lrms are effective proportional to the skill of your enemy. Direct fire way less so.

Putting the effort into getting good at direct fire will make you consistently effective. That's what wins matches,worlds and fw.

[Dee Eight]

As someone who likes LRMs, nothing annoys me more than the whole "leave your LRM mechs at home" whine from some players in CW during the drop deck selecting screen. It of course never occurs to the prima donnas that perhaps the player knows how to run LRMs, or already selected and moduled all the mechs in his drop deck and that its not some simple matter to swap mechs because of a negative stereotype against them. Also usually anytime someone does that speech, at some stage during the drop if it bogs down because everyone is hiding behind cover and poking, someone will go "doesn't anyone have any LRMs ?" Also there's a difference between JUST running LRMs and running it as a support weapon (which is how the LORE intended it to be) along with other weapons. The whole "combined arms" concept seems lost on a lot of players.

During the second half of the CW event, I switched from IS to Clan contracts, and my deck was built around the only clan mechs I owned (I will NOT bring trial mechs to a drop), which in order to get as close to the tonnage limit meant three hellbringers and a shadow cat. All had LRMs, but except for the shadowcat they were not the primary weapon system. One got a single LRM-10, one got a pair of LRM-5s, one got an LRM-15. All got 2 tons of ammo. All were intended primarily to fire indirectly either on locks that appeared, or just at the edge of cover to rain it down on enemies trying to hide behind said cover. The shadow cat was however intended for direct line of sight action, so 2xLRM-10 with Artemis, 4.5 tons of ammo, and TAG gear. All the mechs had other weapons also (the cat had a pair of ERML, the others got autocannons, ERPPC, LPL, ERLL, ERML, ERSL, SPL, MGs). and everything had ECM also. Unfortunately the Hellbringers don't have many missile hardpoint options if you take the ECM torso, so kinda pointless to build around SRMs, not to mention the single missile hardpoint of 2 of the right torsos, is at the top shoulder of the mech, which kinda makes sense as the hellbringer is the clan descendant to a warhammer. I think two of the hellbringers also ran active probes, as did the shadow cat, so if it doesn't have ECM, I can get my own locks if I have line of sight, out to the maximum range, shoot, and then duck behind cover while it cools down to fire again. Once I'm out of LRMs, I close to direct fire range for lasers or whatever else the mech has.

Also it doesn't matter if you get any kills yourself with them or not, damage you do to the enemy that makes it easier for a team mate to deal the killing blow, is still SUPPORTING the team. Before I switched contracts, I ran an LRM hefty deck for a invasion mission on emerald taiga which has a lot of nice ridges you can use to gain views/elevation to clear other terrain. I picked up only 5 kills myself, but also another 39 kill assists and 8 of the total were KMDD and 15 components destroyed. If I recall correctly. That means I hit 44 of the enemy mechs. Because so many people have this anti-LRM attitude, they also of course don't bother installing AMS units, which then makes them more vulnerable to people with them...

However, I also saw the other night a couple players who ONLY had LRMs, including one atlas with a pair of LRM20s and an LRM 15. Great if you have targets, not so good if someone walks up to you with 6 ERSL's and pokes at your left eye with them.

Edited by Dee Eight, 13 May 2016 - 08:19 PM.

[MischiefSC]

When you're consistently crushing MS, KCom, 228, NS and any other top tier teams with your lrms then by all means. Lecture us all on how we don't appreciate the magic of LRMs. Go crank out success with LRMs match after match like the small handful of good LRM pilots who full on carry in wins against good teams with LRMs.

Until then realize that obviously you can bring whatever troll build you want. The only difference though is that when you bring your LRM mechs and people who complain like you're bringing flamers and MGs you are the only one fooled into thinking your LRM boat isn't a largely worthless troll build.

The team is complaining because they actually know it's bad. You're the one who doesn't.

[Dee Eight]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

When you're consistently crushing MS, KCom, 228, NS and any other top tier teams with your lrms then by all means. Lecture us all on how we don't appreciate the magic of LRMs. Go crank out success with LRMs match after match like the small handful of good LRM pilots who full on carry in wins against good teams with LRMs.

Until then realize that obviously you can bring whatever troll build you want. The only difference though is that when you bring your LRM mechs and people who complain like you're bringing flamers and MGs you are the only one fooled into thinking your LRM boat isn't a largely worthless troll build.

The team is complaining because they actually know it's bad. You're the one who doesn't.

And that there is a stunning example of a prima donna attitude that leads to the long wait queue times outside of CW events like are going on right now, because the majority of players can do without such attitudes harshing their mellow.

[MischiefSC]

Dee Eight, on 13 May 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

And that there is a stunning example of a prima donna attitude that leads to the long wait queue times outside of CW events like are going on right now, because the majority of players can do without such attitudes harshing their mellow.

No. The problem is people being so narcissistic they think their being bad is something everyone else should welcome.

When your team is saying 'don't bring LRMs' they are not trying to shaft you.

They are asking you to quit shafting them.

Winning is more fun than losing. People like having fun. When people are not being sabotaged by their teammates they have more fun. There are more complaints about 'my team was terrible' than there are 'I had to wait so long' and that's saying something; long waits suck.

People don't complain as much about a long wait if they drop with a good team and, win or lose, have a good match accordingly. What drives complaints the most is having a long wait and then dropping with people who don't care that they're sandbagging their team and shafting the 11 other people who dropped with them.

Do that in QP. That's what it's there for. FW is more of an investment in time and, for some people, the dots and such matter. Being a selfish sort who doesn't care about throwing matches for their faction there generates a lot of dissatisfaction.

[MovinTarget]

Feel free to post your solo drop screenshots where your team wins, and you get 8+ kills.

Discount damage as it is a false indicator. You can do 2500 worthless damage with solo lrms because you are not killing anything. Or at the very least, not killing fast enough.

I know players that can get 8+ KMD w/ 1000 dmg. That means the avg dmg (ignoring assists) they did per mech is around 110 dmg.

You can't kill squat with only 110 dmg with lrms.

If you care about winning, taking mechs off the field is your focus.

If you don't care about winning... then why play FW??? You will make money faster in QP.

[Dee Eight]

So what you're saying then...is how YOU have fun, is more important than how I have fun ? Mob rules and all that crap ?

[Jzaltheral]

ChaoticUrlond, on 01 May 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

LRMs are not effective against any target no matter how much damage you say you can do against an enemy. SRMS or Streaks please.

I'll bring as many damned LRMs as I like, and if you don't like it, feel free to ignore me raining death down on our enemies.

LRMs have a place in both Quick Play and Faction Play, but it requires the pilot to be able to use them effectively. Your mech can hold an LRM 80? That's awesome - did you remember to bring a weapon to use when you run out of ammo? Because you will. Are you standing off all by yourself where you will be cut off and die to that pair of light mechs skirting around the main fight? Don't do that.

Let me give the advice I give to members of our unit:

• There are certain faction play matches where LRMs are, in fact, wasted tonnage, especially Grim Portico. This is why having multiple mechs ready to go that can be switched out based on the map is important.
  
• While it's nice when you can get locks from your team, DO NOT DEPEND ON IT if you are a solo player.
  
• Learn to play aggressively. Push with your team.
  
• Learn to dumbfire without getting a lock at all (this requires LOS).
  
• Stay with your teammates or you will die to the first light mech that finds you.
  
• For the love of the ilKhan, bring secondary weapons. You are of 0 use to anyone except as a meatshield if you can't hit things closer than 180 meters effectively. Even if you have to bring streaks because you only have missile slots, bring a couple of streaks, At least you can actually put damage on the light mech that's harassing your teammates.
  
• TAG and NARC are less important than actually being able to hit the target.
  
• The more missile slots you have on your mech, the smaller your launchers should be to increase overall DPS (due to cooldown). Six LRM 5s do just as much (potential) damage as two LRM 15s, but they will fire much faster, increasing your overall (potential) DPS.
  
• Bring secondary weapons (did I mention that already? Good, it's important.)

[MovinTarget]

Dee Eight, on 14 May 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

So what you're saying then...is how YOU have fun, is more important than how I have fun ? Mob rules and all that crap ?

Now that is prima donna material right there.

No, not mob rule, team play. There is a difference.

[MovinTarget]

Jzaltheral, on 14 May 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

I'll bring as many damned LRMs as I like, and if you don't like it, feel free to ignore me raining death down on our enemies.

LRMs have a place in both Quick Play and Faction Play, but it requires the pilot to be able to use them effectively. Your mech can hold an LRM 80? That's awesome - did you remember to bring a weapon to use when you run out of ammo? Because you will. Are you standing off all by yourself where you will be cut off and die to that pair of light mechs skirting around the main fight? Don't do that.

Let me give the advice I give to members of our unit:

• There are certain faction play matches where LRMs are, in fact, wasted tonnage, especially Grim Portico. This is why having multiple mechs ready to go that can be switched out based on the map is important.
  
• While it's nice when you can get locks from your team, DO NOT DEPEND ON IT if you are a solo player.
  
• Learn to play aggressively. Push with your team.
  
• Learn to dumbfire without getting a lock at all (this requires LOS).
  
• Stay with your teammates or you will die to the first light mech that finds you.
  
• For the love of the ilKhan, bring secondary weapons. You are of 0 use to anyone except as a meatshield if you can't hit things closer than 180 meters effectively. Even if you have to bring streaks because you only have missile slots, bring a couple of streaks, At least you can actually put damage on the light mech that's harassing your teammates.
  
• TAG and NARC are less important than actually being able to hit the target.
  
• The more missile slots you have on your mech, the smaller your launchers should be to increase overall DPS (due to cooldown). Six LRM 5s do just as much (potential) damage as two LRM 15s, but they will fire much faster, increasing your overall (potential) DPS.
  
• Bring secondary weapons (did I mention that already? Good, it's important.)

You bring up great points, i would add vitric to the mix because smart players don't get cuaght out in open.


You are right on many points however the op's point might have been overreaching so i will make my own statement:

If you can't do what i've quoted from Jthalthera, please don't bring lrms.

I have stated several times in this thread that lrms can be good, but chances are not effective unless you have coordinated teamwork, share armor yadda yadda yadda.

I will still maintain that direct fire is more efficient and (typically) more effective, especially in solo drops.

I think the op was tired of games where there are 6 lrm boats, 2 snipers and 4 unwitting souls expected to brawl and get locks b/c 8 players are sitting in ineffective positions unwilling to move...

If that doesn't describe you then you can relax.