653 replies to this topic

[Vincent Quatermain]

Tesunie, on 14 August 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not a competitive player. DO NOT CARE WHAT COMPETITIVE PLAYERS DO. Still.

You can use whatever garbage mech you want. Just realize that you're going to lose more often as a result.

The reason why this debate continues is because people keep trying to assert that LRMs are top tier weapons. They are not. Even comp players sometimes take them just for shits and giggles, but there are no delusions that LRMs are good.

Tesunie, on 14 August 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

BUT WAIT! In the past, it was once 6 PPCs or go home. BUT WAIT! Even father in the past, it was SSRM2s. BUT WAIT! Even farther in the past it was LRMs! You heard right! LRMs was ONCE a competitive weapon!

When the performance of those weapons were different, their relative ranking was higher. When the performance of those weapons was adjusted downward, comp players stopped using them.

Comp players have this annoying habit of weighing new evidence and adapting. Scrubs continue saying "hurr, durr, you don't know how to use lurm."

Tesunie, on 14 August 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

So, if I follow only the competitive players like a lemming... I might as well quit the game because I'd find it boring.

Even comp players drive garbage mechs from time to time, simply to play around. Just don't confuse your taste for variety with actual competency.

[MischiefSC]

Tesunie, on 14 August 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not a competitive player. DO NOT CARE WHAT COMPETITIVE PLAYERS DO. Still.

If I cared only what competitive players did, I'd only be running boated builds of only 4 weapon types (primarily), LPLs, SPLs, UAC10s/5s and possibly SRMs. All other weapons should not exist.

BUT WAIT! In the past, it was once 6 PPCs or go home. BUT WAIT! Even father in the past, it was SSRM2s. BUT WAIT! Even farther in the past it was LRMs! You heard right! LRMs was ONCE a competitive weapon!

So, if I follow only the competitive players like a lemming... I might as well quit the game because I'd find it boring. Why? Because WE ALL ARE NOT COMPETITIVE PLAYERS.

So, I have nothing more to prove to you. I'm not going to bother saying the same thing again, when you all are sticking your fingers in your ears and blaring "Competitive players only". I have taken your advise under consideration, and tested it. I have found your advice lacking, and I will continue to play LRMs in my matches as I wish, if I wish.

So, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove to me that LRMs don't seem to work as well as I've been seeing. So far, you evidence is lacking, as "the competitive players" is not evidence. It is not an argument. It is an invalid excuse to try and get people to shut up when they (politely even) disagree with you.

Leaderboard.

Any and all historical data of what wins out overall.

Your opinion of 'competitive players' (used loosely in FW but still) isn't relevant. What is relevant is -

What wins better than other things.

Just because a particular 6th grader can run faster than the other kids in his class does not mean he's got a commanding style for track and field on par or better than any Olympic athlete. Anecdotal opinion is not relevant to the realities of overall performance. Your opinion and my opinion of what is and is not the best way to run the 200m dash means nothing. Usain Bolt however has an opinion that holds merit. Why? He sets the bar on success on the subject. Same is true for anything.

There is no real 'burden of proof' remaining. There is a leaderboard showing who wins the most, both as teams and as individuals. People from all over the top of the boards have swung in and out confirming the realities of LRM performance relative to direct fire. The only burden of proof would be someone wanting to put forward an idea (like LRMs actually being good in FP) that directly challenges the sum of performance data we currently have.

You're arguing that all the most successful people are wrong about what is most successful in FW. That's a bold statement, the burden of proof is yours to present. I'm not arguing my personal experience or opinion; I'm pointing to the data and the experience and opinion of the most successful people and groups in the game.

Okay, so prove it. You're saying you don't have to, 'you just know'. Okay well all the statistical data and sum experience of all the most successful teams in the game show you to be wrong and, as such, everyone else is absolutely justified in asking you to stop trolling them when you bring LRMs to their team until you can prove such is consistently not the case. 1 good game now and again isn't proof. Top of the leaderboards is proof.

Edited by MischiefSC, 15 August 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[Tesunie]

Okay. Let me help out everyone again...

I have never once implied that LRMs where great weapons, or even the best weapon. I have not implied that they are "the worst" either. They are a moderate mid line weapon with both strengths and weaknesses.

For another point, people want me to prove that LRMs are the "best" weapon in the game (which I already have admitted and agreed it is not) by beating competitive players in every category possible. Funny thing is, that assumes that I have the same skill levels, twitch reactions, etc as said high end competitive players. Are we noticing a problem here? Have I ever once claimed to be anything more than an average to maybe (if I'm lucky) a slightly above average player? I could be pitted against them in LRMs (which I feel I probably would do slightly better in, because I seem to appear to do better in LRMs mechs than non-LRM mechs) or the same exact build as they have. Want to know what probably would be the results? I'd probably still lose to them. Why? Because our skill levels are not the same...

I have also stated numerous times how LRMs can be used in many different ways, only to have repeated references to "boating", "hiding and shooting indirectly", "Spray and Pray", "Not sharing armor", etc. Many of those tactics are only the base line for LRM use, and often the least effective manner in which to use them. (I will NOT go into this again. You can re-read the 23 other pages before this post if you wish to see it all over again.)

I've also mentioned that my unit has used LRM tactics, in bulk and not in bulk, and been fairly successful. So... Yeah. It's been done before. Maybe not against the super competitive and ultra-elite players, but it's been done before successfully.



But, you can all continue to ignore my remarks, stick your fingers in your ears, and continue to shout at the top of your lungs "But the competitive players" all you want. Still doesn't matter to me. As I've stated before, I've taken your (the competitive players) advice under consideration. I have tested it myself by experimentation. I have found the statements to be inaccurate.

See. That is what separates me from "the lemmings" who adhere only to what the competitive players say. I'll actually experiment and test things. I've used Flamers and MGs. I've used LBxs and LRMs. I've actually seen how those weapon systems all work and what they can and can not do. I've done that instead of just blindly following the "competitive players advice" of "ignore those weapons, they are useless". I've come to my own conclusions, and some of it lines up with their advice, and others do not.


PS: Show me what builds does the competitive players use? Tell me what weapons they use? Isn't it LPLs? SPLS? SRMs? UAC10s (Kodiak and Direwolf) or UAC5s (Mauler and King Crab)? Basically, there are many weapon systems that "competitive players" don't use. For the most part, those four weapons on mechs specifically quirked for them are the current running meta. You may still see the MPL builds or SSRM crows, but am I wrong about what the primary/main/typical/strongly used weapons of the competitive crowd is? (But I guess I have no idea what I'm talking about... )


This thread has gone on stupidly long. LRM haters are just going to hate. No matter how reasonable I may be with them. No matter what I may say to them. So... Whatever. Continue to play as you wish. I will do the same, as always. I still wont care what people say about my builds or tactics. I'm here to have fun.

[Stahlherz]

MischiefSC, on 15 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Okay, so prove it. You're saying you don't have to, 'you just know'.

LRM is superior, it is known.

It is known.

[Zoeff]

[mod]Please keep the discussions civilized, I've been seeing quite a few posts here going over the line.

This topic will, for now, remain open. Any further harassment will be moderated.[/mod]

[H I A S]

Quote

Show me what builds does the competitive players use?

depends on map, enemy, playstyle and tactic.

Quote

but am I wrong about what the primary/main/typical/strongly used weapons of the competitive crowd is?

Yes.

Edited by arivio, 15 August 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Tesunie]

arivio, on 15 August 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

depends on map, enemy, playstyle and tactic.



Yes.

Okay... Post some of those builds up than? What weapons are you commonly seeing on mechs? Please, inform me, instead of providing... blank space.

So they do NOT use LPLs than? Or SPLs? Is the Kodiak with quad UAC10s not a meta mech and thus not used by competitive players? Am I wrong here? Because I still see a lot of triple LPL builds. I still also see Arctic Cheetahs/Firestarters (and many more) with boated SPLs on them.

If I am wrong, than what builds are they using? I know you might see some SRMs (Oxides, Huggins and Jenner IICs), or some dual Guass/PPCs (Direwolf, Kodiak, King Crab, etc). I know I see a lot of LPL builds out there...

[H I A S]

Quote

What weapons are you commonly seeing on mechs?

Weapons used in Comp.

IS: ERLL, LL (sometimes), LPL, ML, SPL, Gauss, AC5, UAC5, AC10, AC20, MG, SRM, Flamer.

Clan: ERLL, LPL, ERML, ERSL, SPL, Gauss, ERPPC, UAC10, UAC5, LBX20, SRM, Flamer.

Edited by arivio, 15 August 2016 - 02:42 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Tesunie, on 15 August 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

I have never once implied that LRMs where great weapons, or even the best weapon. I have not implied that they are "the worst" either. They are a moderate mid line weapon with both strengths and weaknesses.

Right, so then, to return to the point of the thread . . . when you get the uncommon opportunity to drop in an FP match, why would you take mediocre weapons and sandbag your team? Given the long wait times for these matches, shouldn't you have the common decency to bring a strong drop deck so that you aren't wasting other people's time?

Tesunie, on 15 August 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

See. That is what separates me from "the lemmings" who adhere only to what the competitive players say. I'll actually experiment and test things. I've used Flamers and MGs. I've used LBxs and LRMs.

Experiment and testing are precisely how comp players arrive at the best build. Do you think they just meditate and become one with the mechlab? Ommmmm . . .

((Also, you should note that there are comp builds with MGs (usually on a fast mech with small lasers), and some teams are using LBX10 in FP (at least for Inner Sphere). Flamers and LRMs are just for troll builds, though.))

Tesunie, on 15 August 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

Continue to play as you wish. I will do the same, as always. I still wont care what people say about my builds or tactics. I'm here to have fun.

Ah, "fun" . . . the universal scrublord mating call.

You know what's not fun? Struggling to win because your teammate is just interested in their own fun, and doesn't care about how they're harming everyone else.

[MovinTarget]

Okay, moderators, this thread can be locked. There is nothing left to say b/c anyone who would be swayed one way or another has long since checked out and what is left is immovable objects and unstoppable forces.

The basic fundamental problem is that there no way to let the comp players go off and fight each other and the guys that want to take it a notch down can face off and the jokers can run off and have their funny builds.

This bigger than the issue of lrms. The bottom line is that each group wants to stake their claim to fp but it has middled for so long without a clear identity or separation that now its not really an option unless they figure out how to bring back the masses... and put them into logical buckets that make the majority happy.

[xX PUG Xx]

Movin' you used the "L" word in a thread on t'Internet...... something will explode, I just know it

[MovinTarget]

Locked?

Left?

Let?

Ooooooooooooh















Long?

[Tesunie]

arivio, on 15 August 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Weapons used in Comp.

IS: ERLL, LL (sometimes), LPL, ML, SPL, Gauss, AC5, UAC5, AC10, AC20, MG, SRM, Flamer.

Clan: ERLL, LPL, ERML, ERSL, SPL, Gauss, ERPPC, UAC10, UAC5, LBX20, SRM, Flamer.

I notice that every weapon is there... except for LRMs.

So, you are telling me the flamer is a better weapon? Show me a comp team that has beaten another comp team and is at the top of the leaderboard boating nothing but flamers.

Doesn't exist, right?

So flamers must be bad. Right?


Really...

Same logic you keep applying to LRMs...

Vincent Quatermain, on 15 August 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

Right, so then, to return to the point of the thread . . . when you get the uncommon opportunity to drop in an FP match, why would you take mediocre weapons and sandbag your team? Given the long wait times for these matches, shouldn't you have the common decency to bring a strong drop deck so that you aren't wasting other people's time?



Experiment and testing are precisely how comp players arrive at the best build. Do you think they just meditate and become one with the mechlab? Ommmmm . . .

((Also, you should note that there are comp builds with MGs (usually on a fast mech with small lasers), and some teams are using LBX10 in FP (at least for Inner Sphere). Flamers and LRMs are just for troll builds, though.))



Ah, "fun" . . . the universal scrublord mating call.

You know what's not fun? Struggling to win because your teammate is just interested in their own fun, and doesn't care about how they're harming everyone else.

1. Taking a few LRMs is not "sandbagging" your team. Taking a mech/dropdeck of pure Flamers, MGs and/or TAGs (12 TAG Hunchback anyone?) would be sandbagging your team. LRMs can do a lot within a team. But. Whatever. I must be wrong and you must be right because "competitive players" something or other...

2. So let me get this right, competitive players test and experiment. I'm not allowed to because I am suppose to take their word for it only. If my results disagree with theirs, I must be wrong because "I'm not a competitive player". Really? That's what you are telling me here.

3. This is a game. What else am I suppose to do with it? Treat it like it's a second, third or maybe even fourth job? No. I play games to have fun. But, continue along with your argument... I guess taking LRMs is the equivalent of damaging teammates intentionally? Well gosh. I guess I'll just have to bring what everyone dictates I'm suppose to bring, because I'm not a tier 1 player, so I can't make my own decisions and I'm not permitted to have fun that doesn't line up with their version of fun...

PS: I just got done playing 5 matchesin a row that resulted in losses with my Nova Prime set up with LPLs. But funny how I got a win on the first match I played with my Nova D, which has 2 LRM15s and 5 sm lasers... Guess I was sandbagging my team so much with my LRM mech we accidentally won...

MovinTarget, on 15 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Okay, moderators, this thread can be locked.

Agreed. Seen as I'm now being told that Flamers are a primary weapon being used in comp play...

[Carl Vickers]

Flamers are in a much better place now than last year, lurms have basically stayed the same.

They are not bagging your rights to bring whatever weapons you want, what they are trying to tell you is,

a/ lurms are not as effective as direct fire
b/ when you bring lurms to an FP match you are not really helping your team, bringing them down cause you think they are good does not make them good and does not endear you to your team.

As a caveat, if you are with a 12man of Seraph, do whatever the hell you want, if you are pugging it, perhaps rethink what you are doing as you will drag your team down.

[xX PUG Xx]

MovinTarget, on 15 August 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Locked?

Left?

Let?

Ooooooooooooh


Long?

Nope, "logical"......



....thar be no logic 'ere!!!

[Tesunie]

Carl Vickers, on 15 August 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

Flamers are in a much better place now than last year, lurms have basically stayed the same.

They are not bagging your rights to bring whatever weapons you want, what they are trying to tell you is,

a/ lurms are not as effective as direct fire
b/ when you bring lurms to an FP match you are not really helping your team, bringing them down cause you think they are good does not make them good and does not endear you to your team.

As a caveat, if you are with a 12man of Seraph, do whatever the hell you want, if you are pugging it, perhaps rethink what you are doing as you will drag your team down.

A. Agreed to some extent. Depends upon the situation.
B. I disagree. If LRMs are used well, they can be a boon to your team. The trick I use is to LRM targets as I close into line of sight for my other weapons. There is a reason I suggest never to boat LRMs. And a single LRM 10 launcher with 1 ton ammo doesn't weigh much (depending upon the mech) and can sometimes be enough to force an opponent back into cover, or open a hole for my allies to use. All while I don't have line of sight (yet).

As I've said, it depends upon what you expect from them. Pure damage? Direct fire is better in most cases, especially being more pin point. Adding some control and teamwork? LRMs can do this task, as I've rarely seen a player just stand still in the LRM rain. They can also assist during times when I can't see or shoot a target otherwise.

As I said. I don't claim them to be the best weapon, but also far from the worst. I don't see them "sandbagging" nor hindering my team. Depending, of course, on how they are being used.

[H I A S]

Tesunie, on 15 August 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

I notice that every weapon is there... except for LRMs.

because LRM are inconsistent.

Quote

So, you are telling me the flamer is a better weapon? Show me a comp team that has beaten another comp team

look at the videosection of MRBC drop1.

Quote

and is at the top of the leaderboard boating nothing but flamers.

What Leaderboard? that from FP? there is no compteam (-KCom).
i never said by only boating flamers. u put a couple on a fast brawldeck.

Quote

So flamers must be bad. Right?

nope, flamers are realy usefull for cc.

i come to the conviction that u have no idea what u are talking about.

Edited by arivio, 16 August 2016 - 02:40 AM.

[Stahlherz]

Tesunie, on 15 August 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

PS: I just got done playing 5 matchesin a row that resulted in losses with my Nova Prime set up with LPLs. But funny how I got a win on the first match I played with my Nova D, which has 2 LRM15s and 5 sm lasers... Guess I was sandbagging my team so much with my LRM mech we accidentally won...

You really correlate the losses to your LPLs and the win to LRMs?
That is a very subjective view.

I'm not using LRM at all and my ratios are very positive.

KCom doesn't use LRM and has a W/L ratio of 12+ in CW and our World Championship team is placed 7th.

[MovinTarget]

Guys really, stop killing brain cells.

Tesunie is not one of the guys advocating bring mechs with nuthin but lrms and without tag/narc/help.

We've been through this before.

If he brings an lrm 10 on a heavy/assault but the rest is direct damage, he's fine. If he is in the lrm hunchie with 2 lrm10s and he knows how to kite, more power to him.

I don't think he's advocating for lrm atlases that go 40kph and need help to get locks.

I personally have come a long way in this thread... not that anyone is going to convince me that pug-lrm-boating s a good thing. That's still bad. I just recognize the gray are where it doesn't matter that much.

I still personally won't take lrms unless i am in a group of 8+ and the DC calls for rain.

I do agree it is not a comp weapon as it can be countered so many ways by smart pilots that know that; "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a lrm."

And Tesunie, individual player data is a bit anecdotal, there are 24 players in a game, one mech seldom dictates the success failure of an entire match... yes this can go the other way too, one boat out of 48 wouldn't make that much of a difference either but... think of the qp matches you've been where you realize your team has 5-6 lrm boats sitting in the back and you catch yourself thinking "we have too many lrms", now multiply that out for 4 waves and that is what people are railing against.

Edited by MovinTarget, 16 August 2016 - 02:42 AM.

[Starwulfe]

BSODomizer, on 13 August 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

Tag lasers, by the way, pinpoint where the LRMs will hit. Tag the CT? They'll hit the CT! Only the CT.

Completely wrong.
If you are getting your own locks, have tag and artemis, LRMs will spread between the three torsos.