190 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

Quote

Title is obviously a bit on the obnoxious side but I don't intend it to be that way, I'm absolutely serious. I apologize if it seems rude but it's the honest truth and if we're going to improve FW, we have acknowledge what the actual issues are.

I play almost entirely solo. I have a unit, but that's just to run the merc path (it's only me in it). In the previous incarnation I got up to rank 10 Ghost Bear and rank 2 everything else (mech bays) and ran into a good number of premades.

What I learned was that yes, sometimes you'll see one that absolutely destroys you like the better guys in MS, you can still do well and make them earn it. I see all these complaints about how the 12 mans are just crushing everyone but most of them just aren't that good, it's that the PUGs are just that bad. Pulling less than 1500 damage for me almost never happens and under 1k NEVER happens, against anyone, yet I see games where half of my team has 400 or less. Fighting MercStar doesn't make you do 400 damage with four 'mechs, being bad does.

Does it suck to fight against a whole 12-man from a good unit? Absolutely. Could you make it suck less by sucking less? Also absolutely. There really aren't that many full groups out there that are both coordinated and skilled enough to just wipe the floor with you. Most of the time, the roflstomps happen because the PUGs either give up or are just incredibly bad to begin with. I saw a hilarious thing today where someone tried to kill himself by shooting at a wall with override on and his weapon side blew up first, so he even failed at suicide.

So be bold, fight hard, and get better. There's a pretty low skill cap in this game due to how most 'mechs don't avoid damage, they just spread it. It's not like Starcraft where a pro can take on 5 average players and win with ease. If you kill them they will die of it just like anyone else.

Hey Mr. Obnoxious got any videos of your Mech piloting greatness because I would sure like to see it?

Maybe we scrubs can learn something

[MischiefSC]

Lazor Sharp, on 06 May 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Nah, CLW is just a casual merc unit with some good guys Havin Fun, kicking butt some, and getting our butt kicked some.....

But there are some here that think that casuals can't ever have Fun in this game...............

Yes you can. Absolutely. I'm all for it. There is a world of difference between people who show up to have fun and recognize that sometimes you're going to drop against a tryhard 12man and get rolled ans that's okay.

The problem is people who drop casual, don't event try to coordinate and then get rolled, then demand the game change instead of them.

Not kidding about Marik though. Drunken rednecks *are* their pro team.

[102_devill]

Copy the CW system from WoT into MWO FP.

pros:
no waiting time for drops
more challenging and interesting games
no ghost drops

cons:
cant farm pugs
no excuse "pugs lost the planet" when you lose

I guess the cons are too much for some people in this "community".

[IQcreditscore]

JaxRiot, on 06 May 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Here you go- http://mwomercs.com/...action-rewards/ . Pinned right on this very forum.

Also for some build ideas you can try https://www.mechspecs.com/ , and http://metamechs.com/ .

You can also tinker with building your own here- http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

The problem isnt finding good guides and resources. There are plenty of people (many of which I disagree with on many things) that are really good at providing resources for new players.

The problem is that those resources wont prepare a new player trying to pug CW for the wrath that comes down upon them when facing a Premade/Unit.

It can be very discouraging for many, and many just leave CW behind and stick to quickplay unless an event comes up, and some of those get bored with quickplay and just leave the game entirely.

The ones who do decide to participate in CW have their work cut out for them because Trial Mechs are frowned upon in CW. Which means they either have to buy Mechs with real money or farm QuickPlay at least enough to buy a basic drop deck.

So we then end up with a CW that is too big for the people actually participating in it which makes it struggle as a game mode.

Most of the discussion happening about CW are how to either make it more solo/new player friendly or how to make it more feasible for ones already playing it.

Everyone seems to have their own opinions on how to do those things and PGI doesnt seem to know what to do either.

Like I said it's not near enough to make pugs helpful in much other than what mech they should take and some real basic things. The actual maps with some pointers of this is an ok place to be on this map if you are defending, watch for a gen rush, this is the crows nest and people use it to poke/spot, This is a video of an assault on a few different maps etc.

IF they actually come to the forums (pretty sure most don't), it's an ok resource. It should be pinned in the new player and general sections above also though as a lot of people wont find it. I think videos of "this is how it is and how you should aspire to do things" is a needed addition. It's serviceable if you can translate from another game and spend the time walking the maps in training. Most people wont do that, so make it easier. I am a little more persistent than most so spent a lot of time figuring what I needed to do to end up competitive at some point. Improving it and getting it into sections it technically doesn't belong but does in a way is needed. Links to some old twitch videos or something at least. It will help those that want the help.

[MischiefSC]

RokerSaMoravu, on 06 May 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Copy the CW system from WoT into MWO FP.

pros:
no waiting time for drops
more challenging and interesting games
no ghost drops

cons:
cant farm pugs
no excuse "pugs lost the planet" when you lose

I guess the cons are too much for some people in this "community".

Never played wot. Couldn't say.

I want a system where it's not just a single combined queue is vs Clan.

No matchmaker.

Can pug with teams if you want to.

You want to beat a faction you play whoever is defending. You can't beat Liao by only fighting Liao pugs.

A few other things.

[slide]

Commander A9, on 06 May 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Lemme ask ya'll this.

When your favorite sports teams gets a perfect season and wins the championship game...does the commissioner of that sport radically revolutionize the rules of the game to "level the playing field?"

When the Patriots swept the NFL in 2007, did the NFL commissioner revamp the entire game?

How about when the Yankees won 27 World Series rings? Did the MLB commissioner change dozens and dozens of rules?

So why would you ask PGI to change up all the rules simply because the better players have banded together to win their matches on a more frequent basis?

Actually there are plenty of sports that exhibit this exact behavior in a effort to even the playing field. Sports which have one dominant team tend not to attract large crowds which affects revenues.

Most team sports have a salary cap and a draft process. Teams that finish lower in the rankings get higher draft picks and better teams some times have their salary caps reduced, this is to try and even the skills between teams.

Just about every form of motor sport has rules so restrictive that most teams can't get much of an advantage. In F1 if a team get a significant advantage through some technology you can almost guarantee it will be written into the rules next season.

Horse racing, a particularly good horse will get a heavier jockey.

Boxing, Heavy weight v Bantam, never going to happen.

The only exception to the above would be single player sports like tennis. But even tennis tournament organizers try to seed better players so they go against each other as nobody wants to watch the world number 1 smash no. 200.

All sports have rules which encourage competition and improve player retention and skill. CW has none and it directly translates to player retention and enjoyment at any level of the game.

[IQcreditscore]

RokerSaMoravu, on 06 May 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Copy the CW system from WoT into MWO FP.

pros:
no waiting time for drops
more challenging and interesting games
no ghost drops

cons:
cant farm pugs
no excuse "pugs lost the planet" when you lose

I guess the cons are too much for some people in this "community".

You forgot the back breaking con: Scheduling clanwars to be at x time will preclude tons of players and drive a too low pop as it is FW into the ground.

I think a real solution has been posted here and there in pieces.

Separate the organized for the most part from the unorganized?
1-4 man groups(clanned or not), loyalists and solo goes in one que. 5-12 mans in another.

Didn't work before?
SPLIT the houses into the traditional 2 sides for IS vs IS AND have IS vs CLan. Scrap the multiple attack lanes at a time/voting crap for the moment (pop is too low). Change to a different planet every hour or 2 or 4. Whoever won the most in the previous period owns that planet. No more only the last match counts crap. You only have to fill 2 ques at once. It satisfies the lore guys to a degree and guarantees there is not 50 people in 50 different ques all by themselves.

I guarantee if there were only 4 teams TOTAL to fill for each solo and 5+ group players the separation works. Right now it might make some people happy that liao can attack kurita or somesuch but with the low pop it makes no sense. Hence you have everyone lumped together.

[MischiefSC]

slide, on 06 May 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Actually there are plenty of sports that exhibit this exact behavior in a effort to even the playing field. Sports which have one dominant team tend not to attract large crowds which affects revenues.

Most team sports have a salary cap and a draft process. Teams that finish lower in the rankings get higher draft picks and better teams some times have their salary caps reduced, this is to try and even the skills between teams.

Just about every form of motor sport has rules so restrictive that most teams can't get much of an advantage. In F1 if a team get a significant advantage through some technology you can almost guarantee it will be written into the rules next season.

Horse racing, a particularly good horse will get a heavier jockey.

Boxing, Heavy weight v Bantam, never going to happen.

The only exception to the above would be single player sports like tennis. But even tennis tournament organizers try to seed better players so they go against each other as nobody wants to watch the world number 1 smash no. 200.

All sports have rules which encourage competition and improve player retention and skill. CW has none and it directly translates to player retention and enjoyment at any level of the game.

And in managed divisions in MWO this is also the case.

That's not what FW is though. I'm sure Solaris will have an e-sports balancing system, leagues, etc.

FW however is and has always been a bloody, brutal FFA for control of the Inner Sphere. Any sort of matchmaking eliminates the point of FW entirely - you didn't beat Clan Wolf, you just never had to play their Div A or B teams but won a couple matchesagainst their casual pugs and Div E team. You didn'tbeat their faction - you just won a curated match against a team balanced to yours that happened to have a Wolf tag on at the time.

[IQcreditscore]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

And in managed divisions in MWO this is also the case.

That's not what FW is though. I'm sure Solaris will have an e-sports balancing system, leagues, etc.

FW however is and has always been a bloody, brutal FFA for control of the Inner Sphere. Any sort of matchmaking eliminates the point of FW entirely - you didn't beat Clan Wolf, you just never had to play their Div A or B teams but won a couple matchesagainst their casual pugs and Div E team. You didn'tbeat their faction - you just won a curated match against a team balanced to yours that happened to have a Wolf tag on at the time.

Happens. The entire USA military is not made up of SEALS, and neither could elite units win a war alone (although their actions in the right places can influence the outcome).

I hope solaris has some of the things that will actually balance it for esports yet draw people into the game (it's true function).
Restrict how many of each type mech a side can bring (more shiny toys to show people and diversity). Have full skilled dropdecks available so it is not run what ya brung, but balanced. That's actually very important for balance. They are only available when you run in a solaris esports tourney. More people would buy more shiny toys if they played with them also.

Bracketing is tough for esports, especially since clan affiliation should have nothing to do with what esports team you can play in. This is very important and helps with parity. It keeps the talent pool slightly more mixed as otherwise one clan might grab the top 400 players and the rest is history. Even at WOT's height there were only 3-4 100 man clans that were dominant. Then 5-20 were decent and could beat a 1-4 on occasion but almost never in a protracted war. Their population on the na server is and was far larger. There just is never enough true 1% callers and players to go around.

Have a lore tourney with stock layout mechs and restrictions on how many of each type you can run. That would be interesting and the ttk would go up slightly. The bt lore guys would have their own tourney and it might bring back more old lore players. We need the population yo.

[slide]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

And in managed divisions in MWO this is also the case.

That's not what FW is though. I'm sure Solaris will have an e-sports balancing system, leagues, etc.

FW however is and has always been a bloody, brutal FFA for control of the Inner Sphere. Any sort of matchmaking eliminates the point of FW entirely - you didn't beat Clan Wolf, you just never had to play their Div A or B teams but won a couple matchesagainst their casual pugs and Div E team. You didn'tbeat their faction - you just won a curated match against a team balanced to yours that happened to have a Wolf tag on at the time.

Which was not what he was arguing.

At the end of the day CW will not survive with a few high caliber teams. It will not survive with it's current (non event) population levels. Exclusion at any level good, bad, skill, not skilled is not going to help make the mode either better or viable. I have never come to the forums and asked for x weapon to be nerfed or y chassis to be buffed ( I might have agreed occasionally).

But when I do see people asking for others to be banned or to not play because those people don't live up to some artificially inflated ego's level of play, I will say something because it is not good for the long term prospects for the game.

I have seen first hand how this type of behavior can ruin groups. There is just no way I can fathom that it can be good for a gaming community. I have no issue with people playing at a high level, but at the same time those same people cannot expect lesser skilled players to fill a queue, just so they can get a game.

The closest analogy to CW in MWO history was the 12 v 12 only queue. It died because there were a few elite teams who basically stomped all the casual players out of the mode and then got sick to death of playing against each other all the time. 12 man teams were rolled back into the group queue because that queue was un-viable and then severely handicapped to give other smaller groups a chance. The exact same thing has been happening in CW for the last year and a half, it is only the enticement of some of the rewards that keep casual players coming into the mode before they quit it forever for QP only.

I don't know what the solution is, I thought the solo queue would help, but frankly, I think that was sabotaged by design before it could even be given a fair chance. I do know that giving people the opportunity to play, maybe learn some skills, see teamwork first hand etc, etc has a better chance of increasing the overall level of skill in the players than just flat out telling them they can't play or "git gud" ever will.

Hours or weeks of work by dedicated players and units, who encourage people to get on TS and group up, is undone every time one of these obnoxious threads comes up because some tryhard is butt hurt because a random pug has ruined his match. It is no more constructive than the random pug coming here and complaining that the 12 man touched me in a bad place. The difference is the new random pug doesn't know any better.

[MischiefSC]

slide, on 06 May 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Which was not what he was arguing.

At the end of the day CW will not survive with a few high caliber teams. It will not survive with it's current (non event) population levels. Exclusion at any level good, bad, skill, not skilled is not going to help make the mode either better or viable. I have never come to the forums and asked for x weapon to be nerfed or y chassis to be buffed ( I might have agreed occasionally).

But when I do see people asking for others to be banned or to not play because those people don't live up to some artificially inflated ego's level of play, I will say something because it is not good for the long term prospects for the game.

I have seen first hand how this type of behavior can ruin groups. There is just no way I can fathom that it can be good for a gaming community. I have no issue with people playing at a high level, but at the same time those same people cannot expect lesser skilled players to fill a queue, just so they can get a game.

The closest analogy to CW in MWO history was the 12 v 12 only queue. It died because there were a few elite teams who basically stomped all the casual players out of the mode and then got sick to death of playing against each other all the time. 12 man teams were rolled back into the group queue because that queue was un-viable and then severely handicapped to give other smaller groups a chance. The exact same thing has been happening in CW for the last year and a half, it is only the enticement of some of the rewards that keep casual players coming into the mode before they quit it forever for QP only.

I don't know what the solution is, I thought the solo queue would help, but frankly, I think that was sabotaged by design before it could even be given a fair chance. I do know that giving people the opportunity to play, maybe learn some skills, see teamwork first hand etc, etc has a better chance of increasing the overall level of skill in the players than just flat out telling them they can't play or "git gud" ever will.

Hours or weeks of work by dedicated players and units, who encourage people to get on TS and group up, is undone every time one of these obnoxious threads comes up because some tryhard is butt hurt because a random pug has ruined his match. It is no more constructive than the random pug coming here and complaining that the 12 man touched me in a bad place. The difference is the new random pug doesn't know any better.

The solution is FW maps/modes in QP to effectively train everyone before they get in the deep end. Second you adjust payouts based on who you're playing - similar to how matches are balanced in qp. So if you're a 228 12man you get **** pay stomping pugs but big money playing against MS.

Give rewards for flipped planets based on total winning drops by player, not tags. So if you're pugging on Wazan and you're in 10 winning matches and it flips you get a cbill bonus, 10 MC and 1 MC a day that Wazan stays or whatever the bonus is. This way you're hugely rewarded to play WITH teams- winning the match > your personal end of round score and playing with big units benefits you greatly.

This also stacks big with the prior payout by enemy. You're an average player pugging and you end up dropping with a 228 8man against an MS 12man. Because you're sandbagging your teams "Elo value" vs the other if you knuckle under and help them win you'll walk out of that match with 2 million cbills.

Finally, 1 planet per front. No split attack/defend queue. This eliminates a ton of issues with pug vs premades creates by attack vs defend queue. So if you're fighting on Marik border and Davion wins, we get the world, next cycle is a Marik world up. They win, they keep the world, next cycle is a Davion world. Solves a LOT of issues.

You build the game to reward teamwork and reward hard matches vs easy matches. You reward performance player by player, match by match not all or nothing based on team tags. That would draw more teams, better enable solo and newer players to get into FW, have QP to train on the modes, motivate teamplay, etc.

Boom. Better FW all around without nuking what makes FW better than QP.