28 replies to this topic

[maniacos]

Last FP session I had a Long Tom for my team and we been fighting against clans. This is rather seldom since all planets we attacked we had one or two scouting lances keeping the TL away from us which succeeded. This time however we dropped against a random pug team on a planet that just got over 90% in scouting and 2 minutes in the match, the LT already killed 2 of our opponents in a single strike before they could even target one of us or been targeted. Next strike hit us in the brawl, killing another 2 of our opponents and 2 from our team via headshot or something. At this time, less than 5 minutes in the match the LT already had 6 kills on it's account. It didn't kill more on our side but continued taking out an enemy single shot. In a counter-attack this can give a huge advantage, when the LT gives you the kill-lead almost for free (if the teams are equally good or close game). The game was already easy running premade 10er+2 against a complete random match but the LT made it even more easy for us.

That thing is way too overpowered and single-shoting a mech that was at 100% health is just ridiculous and I understand everyone who refuses to drop on a planet that has LT active.

PS: Wasn't it the case that air strikes were able to single shot kill mechs and that this was patched after complains? Why is PGI doing the same mistake twice? I mean a LT should be stronger than an airstrike, of course, but from a gameplay perspective this is just overdone.

[Tarl Cabot]

http://mwomercs.com/...ong-tom-damage/

[nehebkau]

maniacos, on 04 May 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

Last FP session I had a Long Tom for my team and we been fighting against clans. This is rather seldom since all planets we attacked we had one or two scouting lances keeping the TL away from us which succeeded. This time however we dropped against a random pug team on a planet that just got over 90% in scouting and 2 minutes in the match, the LT already killed 2 of our opponents in a single strike before they could even target one of us or been targeted.

Some of us on the FRR have been practicing Long-tom tactics and have gotten pretty good and using it against our enemies... 2x 150kph lights running into the middle of the enemy just as long-tom is about to fire = a lot of dead enemies. But I agree with you about long-tom and I think it should be removed from the game and something else put in its place. Why would you want a mechanic that robs your of kills/damage/match-score/cbills?

[Lily from animove]

nehebkau, on 04 May 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

Why would you want a mechanic that robs your of kills/damage/match-score/cbills?

because invasion is made for conquereing a planet, if you need kills and stuff go to quickplay.

[Bud Crue]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

because invasion is made for conquereing a planet, if you need kills and stuff go to quickplay.

Don't think it a question of personal "need". Rather it is an issue that as mechanic in FP the long tom is seen by some (many) as a mechanic that takes away some of the potential rewards of a FP match. I think we all agree that faction play needs all the players it can get, so any mechanism that might cause some of the population to avoid it simply because their rewards are potentially reduced might not be a good thing.

[nehebkau]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

because invasion is made for conquereing a planet, if you need kills and stuff go to quickplay.

So can I assume that you like Ghost-dropping then? If FP is just about taking planets then Ghost-dropping should be something that you really like? Could there be more to it then just taking planets?

Edited by nehebkau, 04 May 2016 - 07:40 AM.

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 04 May 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Don't think it a question of personal "need". Rather it is an issue that as mechanic in FP the long tom is seen by some (many) as a mechanic that takes away some of the potential rewards of a FP match. I think we all agree that faction play needs all the players it can get, so any mechanism that might cause some of the population to avoid it simply because their rewards are potentially reduced might not be a good thing.

If people are playing CW primarily for the c-bills, I say they're doing it wrong. It does not even have any economy in it.

If all people want are c-bills, then get Richer Than Blake in QP.

[Lily from animove]

Bud Crue, on 04 May 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Don't think it a question of personal "need". Rather it is an issue that as mechanic in FP the long tom is seen by some (many) as a mechanic that takes away some of the potential rewards of a FP match. I think we all agree that faction play needs all the players it can get, so any mechanism that might cause some of the population to avoid it simply because their rewards are potentially reduced might not be a good thing.

rewards are a personal thing and nothing else. And its only seen as "taking away" rewards for rather short sighted individuals. Taking the planet is a reward and the MC it grants for the Unit owning it. Thats more important than soem C-bilsl which come faster in QP anyways.
Long Tom is also the reward for the scouting efforts, wouldn't there be an efficient reward influencing Invasion, no one would scout and just do invasion.

Also, serious FW interestedplayers are not the ones that go off FW because of the LT "stealing" their rewards. Serious palyers don't care about the rewards, because if rewards would matter you simply skimrish out all games endign with around 1500damage and lots of rewards. But Quick play is Cbill wise more efficient when it comes to C-bills. So FW is only good for LP and MC's form conquering a planet. And no FW does not need all the players it can get. Some things in FW are bad because of exactly those players, not palying the modes as intended screwing the entire effort of people playing the mode for what it was intended. if you play in scouting the entire evening and you gather around 10 intel per match intel gathering and lose only 1 of 9 intel defendings and still see the scouting % drop because of some trolls enjoying the 4vs4 deathmatches - THAT is ruining the FW experience. And similar stuff happens with Invasio when hordes of killgreedy guys brawl attack modes out and don't try to conquer a planet.

nehebkau, on 04 May 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

So can I assume that you like Ghost-dropping then? If FP is just about taking planets then Ghost-dropping should be something that you really like? Could there be more to it then just taking planets?

No, because ghost drops are time inefficient due to how long you need to wait at all to get the drop. But yes at the end of a cycle or een inbetween every ghostdrop is helping the goal. May not be exciting but when you play to win the planet for your faction instead of your personal rewars then yes, Ghost drops are not a bad thing. And no what else should there be more than taking planets? Thats the entire core of FW. conquering and defendign planets for your faction.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 May 2016 - 08:17 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Mystere, on 04 May 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

If people are playing CW primarily for the c-bills, I say they're doing it wrong. It does not even have any economy in it.

If all people want are c-bills, then get Richer Than Blake in QP.

Again, I don't think the issue raised above is one of "need" or even playing "primarily" for c-bills, etc. Rather, it is just that the long tom is unquestionably a mechanism that reduces the opportunity to interact with the enemy in ways that would otherwise have gotten you some c-bills. If you buy the MANY previous arguments that have appeared in the forums along the lines of "I don't play CW because the rewards suck" etc. any such mechanism that reduces c-bill farming potential is going to continue to keep some percentage of players from playing CW. Maybe the attitude is "good riddance", but many also seem to think that low CW population is a problem. Perhaps the joy that the long tom mechanism brings to the game play out weighs that? Not my concern, I am just trying to recognize the issue.

[Lily from animove]

Bud Crue, on 04 May 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Again, I don't think the issue raised above is one of "need" or even playing "primarily" for c-bills, etc. Rather, it is just that the long tom is unquestionably a mechanism that reduces the opportunity to interact with the enemy in ways that would otherwise have gotten you some c-bills. If you buy the MANY previous arguments that have appeared in the forums along the lines of "I don't play CW because the rewards suck" etc. any such mechanism that reduces c-bill farming potential is going to continue to keep some percentage of players from playing CW. Maybe the attitude is "good riddance", but many also seem to think that low CW population is a problem. Perhaps the joy that the long tom mechanism brings to the game play out weighs that? Not my concern, I am just trying to recognize the issue.

CW population is a problem because people do 400damage in 4 mechs not havign any idea what they do. Because these people cry and flame the team for "losing" when they don't keep with the team. Yes for these players, rewards will be bad. And rewards in FP are high enough, you cna get around 1 mio cbills per match, given you don't paly like a derp. LT isn't like takign you away 50% Cbill rewards. Such claim is just nonsense.

[Bud Crue]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

CW population is a problem because people do 400damage in 4 mechs not havign any idea what they do. Because these people cry and flame the team for "losing" when they don't keep with the team. Yes for these players, rewards will be bad. And rewards in FP are high enough, you cna get around 1 mio cbills per match, given you don't paly like a derp. LT isn't like takign you away 50% Cbill rewards. Such claim is just nonsense.

I hear you. No one is saying that LT has destroyed all incentive or even "50%" merely that is has reduced the potential for some rewards that in the past would have been available but for the use of long tom. You don't see that as an issue or concern. Understood.

[Mystere]

nehebkau, on 04 May 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

So can I assume that you like Ghost-dropping then? If FP is just about taking planets then Ghost-dropping should be something that you really like? Could there be more to it then just taking planets?

Ghost drops can be mitigated by something like this instead of the current "take majority of N slices before ceasefire to own planet" system we have:




In other words, use some kind of directed graph or tree structure to represent a planet instead of this silly majority-based N-slice system we have.

Allow ghost drops only on a1, b1, c1, and the central node (i.e. capital city) while leaving all other nodes (i.e. minor cities or installations) instantly capturable (or AI defended -- preferably just by turrets, tanks, and infantry ) in the absence of an enemy.

If you want to see more, go here.

Edited by Mystere, 04 May 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[nehebkau]

Mystere, on 04 May 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Ghost drops can be mitigated by something like this instead of the current "take majority of N slices before ceasefire to own planet" system we have:
...
If you want to see more, go here.

Our exchange, where I mentioned ghost drops, came from Lily stating that s/he places the highest reward on getting the zone and taking the planet and anything that helps that is good (including long-tom). I took the standpoint that my whole reason for dropping is to do battle and accrue the rewards (rewards include the entertainment from fighting another mech) and long-tom reduces those rewards.

My statement on ghost drops was an attempt to get lily to admit that actually playing the game (shooting others) had some intrinsic value in and above actually taking a planet since ghost-dropping is quite boring. However, lily believes that the only value comes from taking the planet and as such ghost-drops are great because they further that end. Given that we have distinctly different values (I place a higher value on the game-play and Lily the end-goal), we are at an impasse.

Edited by nehebkau, 04 May 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[MischiefSC]

LT makes the game less fun. With or against. The end result is less total people dropping. There is no argument for why that's a good thing or "makes scouting worthwhile" is silly.

People play scouting because 4v4. That's it. They'd play it if it had 0 impact on Invasion. All that LT does, the only overall impact it has, is getting people to not drop in invasion queue. That's the impact it has on the game. That's it. Less people dropping in Invasion queue and less playing overall.

I don't care what the rational for LT is, the result is bad. That makes it a bad mechanic.

[Chuck Jager]

Our attack group had LTs and nobody was in Q against us. Almost better to not farm em and take the drops.

[feeWAIVER]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

because invasion is made for conquereing a planet, if you need kills and stuff go to quickplay.

Some people just like good fights.

[BoseMensch]

I only started playing this game fairly recently, as I didn't know it existed until it came out on Steam. That being said, I'm nowhere near the elite players and meta players. I'm not terrible, but I'm not great either. I'm tier 3, so I suppose that means that I understand the basics.

I got bored pretty quick with QP and joined a unit because FW looked like a lot of fun. Organized teams fighting each other on larger, more tactical and complicated maps? Sign me up! I thoroughly enjoyed CW, and learned a LOT playing in that game mode. It is a completely different mode than QP, and frankly more fun. Even when we lost at FW, I had fun.

Then comes Phase III and the ridiculous insta-death LT. I played a LOT of the skirmish matches, because they are fun in their own way, and then made the mistake of answering one of the call to arms invasion drops when there was nobody online from my unit. Got stuck on a plant where opposing team was defending and had LT. Rush to the gates, and before I can even get there, insta death in my 100% untouched black knight. Fine. Drop again in my second black knight. Before I get to the gate, insta death from the long tom. Finally got to the gate in my blackjack and get slaughtered right before the nuke hits because theres just a firing line set up scragging us as we come in because we cant group up to counter it. Last drop in my wolfhound, same thing.

You want to talk about a game mode that will absolutely destroy a new person's interest in this game? The Long Tom is it. I haven't dropped invasion again since, and most likely wont again until the LT is removed. I'll keep doing scouting missions, because its fun and I like to think that my games have an impact on something. But the stupid LT is a game wrecker. I would bet that many people who sign up, play for a few months and get to the point where they want to try CW/FW would just quit if thats the game they get.

Games like this depend on one thing: player base. If the player base drops, everyone suffers. The players and PGI. Doing things like this makes a new player come in and say "Why the hell should I play this game if I get instantly dead because of something completely random determined by the play of others?" And sure, you experts can say "learn to play around it! Get gud! Stop sucking! Play more scout mode!" But guess what: newer players don't want to do that. We are already facing a huge learning curve just to play the game in a reasonable manner. To make it so that we don't even get to PLAY the game because uber artillery instantly kills us as we are trying to get to one of the (at most) three (??!!) entrances to where we can shoot the other team? Nope. Not going to put up with it. I wanted a game where teamwork actually meant something, tactics were important and skill was useful. I don't want to play F'ing CoD or Battlefield #whatever. I want cohesive unit play, where working together gets better results than one super-player going off on his own. Now I can't even play the game mode that I like the most because some other game mode results in instant death without even seeing an enemy. And that's AFTER spending 5 or more minutes just WAITING for the opportunity to die to the Jurassic Meteor that appears every 2 minutes. If someone asked me how to kill interest in this game, I couldn't think of a better way. Instant death for untouched mechs every 2 minutes? Absolutely great idea! Unless you happen to be running the lightest, fastest mechs available, which are utterly useless in a game mode specifically designed to force people into two fatal funnel entrances that will absolutely be guarded by at least 4 heavier mechs. And sure, you can kamakazi into them. Great. That's the game I want to play. Run into the enemy and let them kill you or hope that they also die when you get nuked! Super fun mega awesome time!

I'll bet anything you want that most people, other than the super elite "get gud!" crowd will just look and see the LT and skip it. Why waste 30-45 minutes of your time to just die randomly without even getting a shot off? Just drop skirmish or quick play. They arent as much fun as invasion used to be, but at least I get to actually PLAY THE F'ING GAME!

[TyphonCh]

BoseMensch, on 04 May 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

I only started playing this game fairly recently, as I didn't know it existed until it came out on Steam. That being said, I'm nowhere near the elite players and meta players. I'm not terrible, but I'm not great either. I'm tier 3, so I suppose that means that I understand the basics.

I got bored pretty quick with QP and joined a unit because FW looked like a lot of fun. Organized teams fighting each other on larger, more tactical and complicated maps? Sign me up! I thoroughly enjoyed CW, and learned a LOT playing in that game mode. It is a completely different mode than QP, and frankly more fun. Even when we lost at FW, I had fun.

Then comes Phase III and the ridiculous insta-death LT. I played a LOT of the skirmish matches, because they are fun in their own way, and then made the mistake of answering one of the call to arms invasion drops when there was nobody online from my unit. Got stuck on a plant where opposing team was defending and had LT. Rush to the gates, and before I can even get there, insta death in my 100% untouched black knight. Fine. Drop again in my second black knight. Before I get to the gate, insta death from the long tom. Finally got to the gate in my blackjack and get slaughtered right before the nuke hits because theres just a firing line set up scragging us as we come in because we cant group up to counter it. Last drop in my wolfhound, same thing.

You want to talk about a game mode that will absolutely destroy a new person's interest in this game? The Long Tom is it. I haven't dropped invasion again since, and most likely wont again until the LT is removed. I'll keep doing scouting missions, because its fun and I like to think that my games have an impact on something. But the stupid LT is a game wrecker. I would bet that many people who sign up, play for a few months and get to the point where they want to try CW/FW would just quit if thats the game they get.

Games like this depend on one thing: player base. If the player base drops, everyone suffers. The players and PGI. Doing things like this makes a new player come in and say "Why the hell should I play this game if I get instantly dead because of something completely random determined by the play of others?" And sure, you experts can say "learn to play around it! Get gud! Stop sucking! Play more scout mode!" But guess what: newer players don't want to do that. We are already facing a huge learning curve just to play the game in a reasonable manner. To make it so that we don't even get to PLAY the game because uber artillery instantly kills us as we are trying to get to one of the (at most) three (??!!) entrances to where we can shoot the other team? Nope. Not going to put up with it. I wanted a game where teamwork actually meant something, tactics were important and skill was useful. I don't want to play F'ing CoD or Battlefield #whatever. I want cohesive unit play, where working together gets better results than one super-player going off on his own. Now I can't even play the game mode that I like the most because some other game mode results in instant death without even seeing an enemy. And that's AFTER spending 5 or more minutes just WAITING for the opportunity to die to the Jurassic Meteor that appears every 2 minutes. If someone asked me how to kill interest in this game, I couldn't think of a better way. Instant death for untouched mechs every 2 minutes? Absolutely great idea! Unless you happen to be running the lightest, fastest mechs available, which are utterly useless in a game mode specifically designed to force people into two fatal funnel entrances that will absolutely be guarded by at least 4 heavier mechs. And sure, you can kamakazi into them. Great. That's the game I want to play. Run into the enemy and let them kill you or hope that they also die when you get nuked! Super fun mega awesome time!

I'll bet anything you want that most people, other than the super elite "get gud!" crowd will just look and see the LT and skip it. Why waste 30-45 minutes of your time to just die randomly without even getting a shot off? Just drop skirmish or quick play. They arent as much fun as invasion used to be, but at least I get to actually PLAY THE F'ING GAME!

QFT. This literally sums up invasion phase 3. I laughed

I wanted to shorten his post, but I won't. This is it. You want people to stop playing? Long Tom. It's waaaaaay too strong. Remove the headshots. %90 scouting should give you an ADVANTAGE, not clear whole planets and avoid invasion altogether. It's counter productive.

Edited by Team Chevy86, 05 May 2016 - 01:11 AM.

[MischiefSC]

BoseMensch, on 04 May 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

I only started playing this game fairly recently, as I didn't know it existed until it came out on Steam. That being said, I'm nowhere near the elite players and meta players. I'm not terrible, but I'm not great either. I'm tier 3, so I suppose that means that I understand the basics.

I got bored pretty quick with QP and joined a unit because FW looked like a lot of fun. Organized teams fighting each other on larger, more tactical and complicated maps? Sign me up! I thoroughly enjoyed CW, and learned a LOT playing in that game mode. It is a completely different mode than QP, and frankly more fun. Even when we lost at FW, I had fun.

Then comes Phase III and the ridiculous insta-death LT. I played a LOT of the skirmish matches, because they are fun in their own way, and then made the mistake of answering one of the call to arms invasion drops when there was nobody online from my unit. Got stuck on a plant where opposing team was defending and had LT. Rush to the gates, and before I can even get there, insta death in my 100% untouched black knight. Fine. Drop again in my second black knight. Before I get to the gate, insta death from the long tom. Finally got to the gate in my blackjack and get slaughtered right before the nuke hits because theres just a firing line set up scragging us as we come in because we cant group up to counter it. Last drop in my wolfhound, same thing.

You want to talk about a game mode that will absolutely destroy a new person's interest in this game? The Long Tom is it. I haven't dropped invasion again since, and most likely wont again until the LT is removed. I'll keep doing scouting missions, because its fun and I like to think that my games have an impact on something. But the stupid LT is a game wrecker. I would bet that many people who sign up, play for a few months and get to the point where they want to try CW/FW would just quit if thats the game they get.

Games like this depend on one thing: player base. If the player base drops, everyone suffers. The players and PGI. Doing things like this makes a new player come in and say "Why the hell should I play this game if I get instantly dead because of something completely random determined by the play of others?" And sure, you experts can say "learn to play around it! Get gud! Stop sucking! Play more scout mode!" But guess what: newer players don't want to do that. We are already facing a huge learning curve just to play the game in a reasonable manner. To make it so that we don't even get to PLAY the game because uber artillery instantly kills us as we are trying to get to one of the (at most) three (??!!) entrances to where we can shoot the other team? Nope. Not going to put up with it. I wanted a game where teamwork actually meant something, tactics were important and skill was useful. I don't want to play F'ing CoD or Battlefield #whatever. I want cohesive unit play, where working together gets better results than one super-player going off on his own. Now I can't even play the game mode that I like the most because some other game mode results in instant death without even seeing an enemy. And that's AFTER spending 5 or more minutes just WAITING for the opportunity to die to the Jurassic Meteor that appears every 2 minutes. If someone asked me how to kill interest in this game, I couldn't think of a better way. Instant death for untouched mechs every 2 minutes? Absolutely great idea! Unless you happen to be running the lightest, fastest mechs available, which are utterly useless in a game mode specifically designed to force people into two fatal funnel entrances that will absolutely be guarded by at least 4 heavier mechs. And sure, you can kamakazi into them. Great. That's the game I want to play. Run into the enemy and let them kill you or hope that they also die when you get nuked! Super fun mega awesome time!

I'll bet anything you want that most people, other than the super elite "get gud!" crowd will just look and see the LT and skip it. Why waste 30-45 minutes of your time to just die randomly without even getting a shot off? Just drop skirmish or quick play. They arent as much fun as invasion used to be, but at least I get to actually PLAY THE F'ING GAME!

Yes, but the solution is to make the rest of your faction decide they enjoy and want to all play scouting and go spam the scout queue - unless the other faction outnumbers you of course. Just... you know. Win scouting. Just DO IT. And then you can play invasion, until you lose scouting.

It might work as an ideal if factions were like the actual military and everyone in a faction was functioning as a single cohesive whole with a single chain of command. Since we're not and this is a game the only thing LT does, the absolute only thing that LT actually accomplishes, is getting people to play the game less. That's it. That's the one and only thing that it does consistently and effectively.

Of course you could always join a comp team and get good at the light rush to use LT against the other team. So completely throw out all the stuff you enjoyed about playing Invasion and play the whole game around using LT to kill the enemy, also join a comp team who can pull it off consistently. That's another great solution that I'm certain will appeal to the majority of players. Why, then every single player and every single unit will consist of elite comp tier players and teams! It's like magic! Of course that'll happen instead of people just not playing! Why didn't we think of this solution before! Add magic AI insta-kill for 1 team at random unless your team is very good, very coordinated and built their drop deck around dealing with it! It'll just force everyone to get amazing at the game! It's brilliant!

Or recognize that the idea of LT in the game is a failure and get rid of it. Because as much as you hate it there's plenty of people on the other side who find it literally worse than running a coordinated 12man vs new players in trials. I didn't even need to show up - it was a waste of time. You could have replaced me with a sack of sand because LT won the match via auto-kill mechanics.

Edited by MischiefSC, 05 May 2016 - 01:42 AM.

[maniacos]

Mystere, on 04 May 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

If people are playing CW primarily for the c-bills, I say they're doing it wrong. It does not even have any economy in it.

If all people want are c-bills, then get Richer Than Blake in QP.

People play FW for C-Bills. Other play it for fun.Maybe someone wants C-Bills but some variance from the boring, dull repetitive random QP drops, some different tactics, 4 mechs per game and so on. Some units may play it for taking planets (you won't take a planet solo anyhow) but what everyone seeks is entertainment. The LT looks good the first two times, but then this entertainment is void as well. Of course rewards are an important part of the entertainment. The reward for units is their planet tag and income from hold planets, for players it's the payout. So it's a total legit motivation to try to get as much rewards as you can, and therefore it's also legit if someone is annoyed when he didn't lose his reward to another player who happened to be better, do more damage and/or kills, but to an automated supergun mechanic (especially when a challenge is running like now).

Edited by maniacos, 05 May 2016 - 03:14 AM.