45 replies to this topic

[thehiddenedge]

Dingo Red, on 06 May 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

As hologames go, MW:O is strictly intended for the average Solaris enthusiast rather than 'Mech jocks themselves, steering away from the simulator nature of other hologames and military grade holosims.

Yup, unfortunately sounds pretty accurate right there.

[oldradagast]

Adler, on 05 May 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

4. Clans do not have significant technological advantages.

I always love listening to this whine. "Clans should kick everyone's butt!"

Ok, sure - so who's going to play the IS cannon-fodder that dies all the time to embiggen the [ego] of the Clan players?

"Somebody else."

That works fine in PvE, but fails completely in a game where people are piloting all the mechs and thus must each have a fair chance to have fun.

Let's not forget that Clans were meant to be the BAD guys in the game. Every time I hear people complaining about how Clans NEED to be overpowered - which is always followed up by them wanting to play Clans, of course - I just think of people in Dungeons and Dragons games who NEED to play a Vampire or a Drow or some other over-powered thing in a party full of normal character races.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 06 May 2016 - 03:50 PM.
Language

[Gyrok]

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

I always love listening to this whine. "Clans should kick everyone's butt!"

Ok, sure - so who's going to play the IS cannon-fodder that dies all the time to embiggen the [ego] of the Clan players?

"Somebody else."

That works fine in PvE, but fails completely in a game where people are piloting all the mechs and thus must each have a fair chance to have fun.

Let's not forget that Clans were meant to be the BAD guys in the game. Every time I hear people complaining about how Clans NEED to be overpowered - which is always followed up by them wanting to play Clans, of course - I just think of people in Dungeons and Dragons games who NEED to play a Vampire or a Drow or some other over-powered thing in a party full of normal character races.

[Surat]! This whole thread is a meme, and you come in here playing blowhard about [stuff] that has no bearing in this thread because you take so many things out of context.

Seriously...the same [stuff] in every thread gets old man.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 06 May 2016 - 03:51 PM.
Language and language in quote

[Destro1000]

PGI You Maniacs! You Blew it Up! Ah, damn you! God Damn you all to Hell!

Edited by Destro1000, 06 May 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[thehiddenedge]

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

Let's not forget that Clans were meant to be the BAD guys in the game.

They're not necessarily bad. They're just like a bunch of horny teenage virgins who don't know any better and all they can focus on and all they want is that sweet, sweet Terra pie and they won't stop until they get some, even if that means beating up a few chumps along the way.


So... Antagonists.

[oldradagast]

Gyrok, on 06 May 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

[Surat]! This whole thread is a meme, and you come in here playing blowhard about [stuff] that has no bearing in this thread because you take so many things out of context.

Seriously...the same [stuff] in every thread gets old man.

Do you have anything to say that addresses the topic or are you just going to pick a fight with me that impresses nobody?

I'm looking forward to hearing your detailed thesis on why having one faction outright better than another is good for a PvP game. You know, a concept I disproved in my response to the OP's suggest of that idea... vs. whatever the heck you posted.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 06 May 2016 - 03:52 PM.
Language in quote

[oldradagast]

thehiddenedge, on 06 May 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

They're not necessarily bad. They're just like a bunch of horny teenage virgins who don't know any better and all they can focus on and all they want is that sweet, sweet Terra pie and they won't stop until they get some, even if that means beating up a few chumps along the way.


So... Antagonists.

True, although the same argument is often used by people wanting to play Drow and Vampires in D&D. I do get that you're joking, though. It's just that so many of those types I've seen over the years are so dead serious about powergaming - it sucks the fun out of everything.

You get my drift, though. PvP games simply can't have one faction that crushes all the other factions since then there's no point in playing anything but that one faction. Every time I hear people grumble about how "clans should crush everyone" it is always followed up by them wanting to play Clan or telling stories from table top about how awesome it was to crush helpless IS targets. But I'm sure they want to play Clan for the roleplaying reasons...

Edited by oldradagast, 06 May 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[oldradagast]

BluefireMW, on 06 May 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

There where things told about how to balance without changing all the things, but PGI was not in the mood to do it like 10/12 or less, or doing a 5 against 8 with superiour clan technology.
It was a decision and not an impossible task.

I'm not convinced it could be done effectively in a PvP game. The only way to win with superior numbers of inferior units in a game like this is with superior teamwork, and any system that assumes teamwork will exist in a PUG queue to keep things balanced is basically a failure - witness Faction Warfare as an example of how badly that idea crashes and burns when PUG's face teams. Could the idea of fewer, better Clan mechs vs. many, inferior IS mechs work, maybe, possibly? Sure - but let's not kid ourselves. If given the choice of playing a "boss" Clan mech that can stand on its own, without teamwork, or a "weaker, teamwork dependent IS mech," everyone will play Clans if they want to win.

That being said, most of the time when I run into folks that want "Clans to be better," it's an open and shut case. They just want to gank lots of "stupid noobs" in IS mechs - it's not about balance, but about power-gaming. That may not have been the case here, but given the vitriolic response to suggesting it... well, one can draw one's own conclusions from that response.

Edited by oldradagast, 06 May 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[cazidin]

Actually. This has potential. What if MechWarrior Online followed a totally different timeline? Technically, in this timeline, the Clans won at Tukayyid (TWICE)! That would have serious implications going forward and it might've made MWO much more interesting while retaining strong ties to Battletech.

[BluefireMW]

cazidin, on 06 May 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Actually. This has potential. What if MechWarrior Online followed a totally different timeline? Technically, in this timeline, the Clans won at Tukayyid (TWICE)! That would have serious implications going forward and it might've made MWO much more interesting while retaining strong ties to Battletech.

i guess the best way in this game.. you take the rules of the battletech board game as a line and try to do the best to make a good game, as close on Battletech as possible...
and there are Solaris VII Rules for a more precise gaming.
But even there the reload times are not as short as at present in the mwo game.

Edited by BluefireMW, 06 May 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[Dread Render]

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:
I always love listening to this whine. "Clans should kick everyone's butt!"

Ok, sure - so who's going to play the IS cannon-fodder that dies all the time to embiggen the [ego] of the Clan players?

Dude, your post has nothing to do with the OP... that is what he is saying...
You are out of line here man.
What you say is correct, just in the wrong thread.

basically he is pissed because you sidetracked the OP, your a [surat]

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 06 May 2016 - 03:53 PM.
Language in quote and insult

[BluefireMW]

Render, on 06 May 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

Dude, your post has nothing to do with the OP... that is what he is saying...
You are out of line here man.
What you say is correct, just in the wrong thread.

basically he is pissed because you sidetracked the OP, your a [surat]

then: there is no need for anything side ways of the original.
no alternativ timeline necessary.. just a better game...

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 06 May 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[oldradagast]

Render, on 06 May 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

Dude, your post has nothing to do with the OP... that is what he is saying...
You are out of line here man.
What you say is correct, just in the wrong thread.

basically he is pissed because you sidetracked the OP, your a troll

Bull - the OP said part of the problem with the game - one of the "paradoxes and absurdities" - is that Clans are not more powerful than the IS. I addressed why having one faction flat-out better than another doesn't work in a PvP game. That is not trolling, and it is not a problem with the game.

If this thread is nothing but "try to explain why MWO is so horrible compared to Lore," fine, but some of us actually like the way Clan balance played out and do not consider it a "paradox or absurdity." If that opinion is not welcome here, enjoy your echo chamber.

Edited by oldradagast, 06 May 2016 - 11:12 AM.

[oldradagast]

To post somewhat more on topic, I think some of what you see actually fits better with reality than Lore.

I never was happy with Clans having "uber tech" - it felt off, somehow, that a warrior-obsessed culture with limited resources would develop better technology than the IS which had more resources even if they were less organized. While having "uber warriors" makes for winning fights, it does not lead to great weapon design. You need engineers and scientists for that. I don't recall any evidence that the Clan valued such classes too heavily, and the IS tended to kill people who knew too much as each faction wanted to maintain an edge over the others.

I think the end result here in MWO, at least regarding Clan and IS mech performance, is somewhat closer to what you'd actually see and doesn't require an alternate universe explanation. Both sides are comparable and their common origin is often evident. Clan mechs tend to be more standardized and easily modified in the field, which makes sense for weapons of war produced by a smaller number of more closely linked nation-states that have limited resources, but that's about it.

Long story short, I actually like the in-game implementation of Clans and IS not only for balance reasons but for roleplaying reasons. Maybe that's just me, and that's fine, but whatever.

[cazidin]

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

To post somewhat more on topic, I think some of what you see actually fits better with reality than Lore.

I never was happy with Clans having "uber tech" - it felt off, somehow, that a warrior-obsessed culture with limited resources would develop better technology than the IS which had more resources even if they were less organized. While having "uber warriors" makes for winning fights, it does not lead to great weapon design. You need engineers and scientists for that. I don't recall any evidence that the Clan valued such classes too heavily, and the IS tended to kill people who knew too much as each faction wanted to maintain an edge over the others.

I think the end result here in MWO, at least regarding Clan and IS mech performance, is somewhat closer to what you'd actually see and doesn't require an alternate universe explanation. Both sides are comparable and their common origin is often evident. Clan mechs tend to be more standardized and easily modified in the field, which makes sense for weapons of war produced by a smaller number of more closely linked nation-states that have limited resources, but that's about it.

Long story short, I actually like the in-game implementation of Clans and IS not only for balance reasons but for roleplaying reasons. Maybe that's just me, and that's fine, but whatever.

While it is true that the Engineering and Science castes were treated as beneath the Warrior caste they weren't totally disregarded either. Their contributions were noted and appreciated, as far as I know. Was it ever explained in the novels how say, the team that developed the UAC/20 were treated after their invention?

[Marvyn Dodgers]

Folks, please try to keep it on topic and leave the rest at the door.

[dervishx5]

Let the forums flow freely

[Mycrus]

Dingo Red, on 06 May 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Nah.

MechWarrior: Online is actually a small hologame developed by Innovative Design Concepts, a design firm based in Solaris City. They produce 'Mechs for use in the arenas and the hologame was part of a promotional campaign for their custom Daedalus Solaris IIV BattleMech.

It ended up quickly taking off on its own and became popular among Solaris fans. You often see it being played by tavern patrons in-between Solaris games, set up on banks of holotanks that allow crowds of enthusiastic spectators to cheer and bet on competitors.

Tournaments are often held between the city districts, although the popularity of such games cannot compare to the Solaris games themselves.

As hologames go, MW:O is strictly intended for the average Solaris enthusiast rather than 'Mech jocks themselves, steering away from the simulator nature of other hologames and military grade holosims.

Yep its a game for wannabees

[Nightshade24]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 06 May 2016 - 02:35 AM, said:

As much as I love Battletech, there are some hugely stupid things... Like the Magistracy of Conopus allying with Liao after the Fedcom Civil War... why the hell would the most humanitarian perphery nation, ally with Space North Korea?!

It isn't a Space North Korea. It's more of a 1950's Japan.

Liao negativity is typically propoganda or the views of the Stiener/ Davion/ FedCom views on them (which are the enemy).
Read the books from Liao perspective. All they ever did was defend their land from invaders and they are considered monsters for that.

Similar to 1950's Japan... sure, WWII is over. But millions of propaganda posters are around and what they did set the thoughts of Americans in stone for the next few decades... people viewed the Japanese as monsters who primarily focus on dirty warfare, torture, cannibalism, etc... Committing mass suicides and have a disregard for their own lives.
That is not what it was truly was, nor was it like that truly 10 years earlier. That is just what the propaganda war machine made.
It'll be easier calling Steiner the North Korea of battletech...
Sabotaging their own allies....mass propaganda... huge class gap and wage gaps... backstabbing... conflict with the other half off the federation commonwealth (fedcom civil war).


Personally I am surprised that people got so mindless on their opinions on Liao and their people by simply the TV saying so... but then again, This is battletech. Liao isn't a 2 hour flight away... it's an expensive 3-5 week 1 way ticket costing extreme amount of money... Visiting what you think is North Korea for that much money and spending the better part of 3+ months there isn't the top thing on peoples mind when they think of a holiday vacation.

[oldradagast]

cazidin, on 06 May 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

While it is true that the Engineering and Science castes were treated as beneath the Warrior caste they weren't totally disregarded either. Their contributions were noted and appreciated, as far as I know. Was it ever explained in the novels how say, the team that developed the UAC/20 were treated after their invention?

That is a very good question.

It's always bugged me in sci-fi (not trying to single out MWO here) when you have the "warrior race / faction" in which being a warrior is all that matters and scientists and engineers are looked down upon as "lowly scum." That mindset can work in the Middle Ages and Dark Ages cultures from which many of the stereotypes or concepts are imported, but it tends to fall flat in a science-fiction setting where you need seriously advanced technology for the warrior class to even be able to put up a fight.

To add another example, as much as I like Star Trek, the Klingons - at least from what we've seen so far from an admittedly mostly Federation perspective - consider non-warriors to be far less than warriors. In a culture like that, it seems hard to believe that they would be able to keep up technologically with cultures that value science and engineering, and yet in the series, the Klingons have achieved parity with other such races and cultures, and even superiority in some cases (cloaking technology, although that may be more simply storyline based - "good guys should be sneaking around" - than anything really science based.")

I'm not trying to derail the thread; I'm just bringing up a point that's always bugged me about warrior races / cultures in fiction that still somehow seem to have great tech despite having no respect for the people who create it. I'm not sure if the Clans are fully like that, and I'm honestly curious if there's an answer. Is there such a thing as an "honored engineer" in Clan society? I know they save the genetic material of their great warriors in the hopes of creating more in the future - do they do the same with their most successful scientists and engineers?

Edited by oldradagast, 06 May 2016 - 06:31 PM.