173 replies to this topic

[SmoothCriminal]

Lower the heat-cap, increase dissipation?

[Ultimax]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 May 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

simply put, if you can 2 shot an atlas with a black knight, theres a problem

and 50+ alpha, 112 or so CT front max in an atlas

2 shot an Atlas? What game are you playing, because it certainly isn't this one.

[CDLord HHGD]

My problem, and we've gone rounds on this, specifically to Alpha Strikes, is that they are used ALL THE TIME.

In the lore, they are risky, last ditch, hail mary, attacks.

As for how to counter them in MWO? I am not sure you can. With the weapon grouping dynamic and so may hardpoints, it's easy to work around.

One suggestion I made a while ago was to tie ghost heat to potential damage output of any particular attack or sets of attacks within 0.5 seconds. It was met with the usual, IMHO, "don't touch my meta" responses.

I am curiously awaiting this new mechanic of PGI's then. Should be interesting if nothing else. Like most of PGI's counters though, I am expecting it to miss the mark.

[Lightfoot]

The mechs just are not armored enough. They die more than twice as fast as in previous MechWarrior games. 2xGauss in MWO is like 4xGauss in MechWarrior 4 (if you could do that). So MWO ends up nerfing everything but lasers to try to fix it, but that just skews the balancing that Battle Tech tries to provide with Weight, Size, and Heat and makes Lasers best.

Not going to say lasers are over-powered or alphas are over-powered because that is not the actual problem. MWO's mechs play like they don't have enough armor and that is the problem.

Edited by Lightfoot, 09 May 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Curccu, on 09 May 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

Most common black knight 7-KNT-L alpha is 58 (3xLPL + 5xML) and with my crappy math it requires ~3.3 alphas to the CT to kill an atlas, that is if you can keep 100% of the beam duration in that CT, which isn't easy if Atlas pilot tries to tank even a little.

ok three shot. my bad I was one off -.-

But still, you can one shot most other mechs that are far heavier than you in one shot. Thats kinda bad for TTK

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 09 May 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Gyrok]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 May 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

ok three shot. my bad I was one off -.-

But still, you can one shot most other mechs that are far heavier than you in one shot. Thats kinda bad for TTK

That is an Atlas with structure quirks, as well...if we were talking about a DW, the third shot would outright kill it without question.

[L3mming2]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 May 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

ok three shot. my bad I was one off -.-

But still, you can one shot most other mechs that are far heavier than you in one shot. Thats kinda bad for TTK

those high alpha laser builds usualy cant fire 3 alphas in a row..

TTK in 1 vs 1 is fine, the high alpha builds cant core out a atlass without cooling down. and those few that can (assaults like BNC 3M's with 6 lpl's in 2 groeps ore 4 uac10 dires) need to make sure that every point of damage gets in to the CT 3 alphas in a row.. unless your oponent is overheated/ ********/ afk thats not easy to do..

the insta gibs of assaults happen when they get alphad by 3 ore 4 ennemy's at the same time...

it sucks to be on the resiving end, but i highly doubt focus fire will go away by limiting alphas ore implementing a other heat scale..

Edited by L3mming2, 09 May 2016 - 08:35 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

L3mming2, on 09 May 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

those high alpha laser builds usualy cant fire 3 alphas in a row..

Yeah thats why youre not sitting belly to belly with said atlas... you alpha, move, alpha, move, then alpha again and shutdown knowing you just killed a mech double your tonnage almost, solo.

cause thats not an issue lol

[Alan Davion]

Lightfoot, on 09 May 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The mechs just are not armored enough. They die more than twice as fast as in previous MechWarrior games. 2xGauss in MWO is like 4xGauss in MechWarrior 4 (if you could do that). So MWO ends up nerfing everything but lasers to try to fix it, but that just skews the balancing that Battle Tech tries to provide with Weight, Size, and Heat and makes Lasers best.

Not going to say lasers are over-powered or alphas are over-powered because that is not the actual problem. MWO's mechs play like they don't have enough armor and that is the problem.

And yet mechs in MWO have double the armor/structure values compared to all previous MW titles as well as TT values.

[H I A S]

Lightfoot, on 09 May 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The mechs just are not armored enough. They die more than twice as fast as in previous MechWarrior games. 2xGauss in MWO is like 4xGauss in MechWarrior 4 (if you could do that). So MWO ends up nerfing everything but lasers to try to fix it, but that just skews the balancing that Battle Tech tries to provide with Weight, Size, and Heat and makes Lasers best.

Not going to say lasers are over-powered or alphas are over-powered because that is not the actual problem. MWO's mechs play like they don't have enough armor and that is the problem.

Search in youtube: novacat a battle (nbt-hc)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alan Davion, on 09 May 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

And yet mechs in MWO have double the armor/structure values compared to all previous MW titles as well as TT values.

This is false, armor was 30 points per ton in MW4 (with around BT armor tonnages for standard armor) and internals were half the the max armor amount just as it is here.

So no, MWO is not double there, at least not without quirks.

arivio, on 09 May 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Search in youtube: novacat a battle (nbt-hc)

Man I miss that mod/league

I also forgot how hot 4 ERLL at 10 damage and 12 heat were in that mod (and that's with some of the heat spread out after firing), damn.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 May 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[L3mming2]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 May 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Yeah thats why youre not sitting belly to belly with said atlas... you alpha, move, alpha, move, then alpha again and shutdown knowing you just killed a mech double your tonnage almost, solo.

cause thats not an issue lol

if the attlas stays out of cover during the time it takes you to cool down and fire the alphas, wile he douse not torso twist ore simply shield his ct wile he backs of... but yes assaults tend to get screwd as they need to much time to get in to cover when they are cought out of position...

ps imo more weight should not neseseraly mean better mech..

Edited by L3mming2, 09 May 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[GreenHell]

With the way the C-LPL works, you really can't compare it to the IS-LPL anymore. You have to compare it to the IS-ERLL instead. They have similar ranges and burn times, making them play and feel more similar.

Basically, 3xIS-ERLL = 2xC-LPL

As for a better match for the IS-LPL on clan side? Grouped MPL's with a huge TC is probably the closest option with its .85s burn time. Range module and the TC combine to reach 396m optimal so it's pretty close in performance, plus the other benefits from the TC. At 500m though? I dunno. Would ERML's with a big TC reach 500? I can bear the 1s burn if they do since that matches the IS-LL pretty well actually. Someone do the math on that since I'm at work right now lol.

[Alan Davion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 May 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

This is false, armor was 30 points per ton in MW4 (with around BT armor tonnages for standard armor) and internals were half the the max armor amount just as it is here.

So no, MWO is not double there, at least not without quirks.

Uh-huh... Then why does the Locust 1V in my 3025 TRO have armor stats like this...

Head: 8
CT: 10/2
RT/LT: 8/2
RA/LA: 4
RL/LL: 8

And the Locust 1V in MWO has armor stats like this...

Head: 16
CT: 20/4
RT/LT: 16/4
RA/LA: 8
RL/LL: 16

Gee... Seems like that's doubled armor right there. And those are the absolute baseline stats.

Now we get into the quirks.

LCT-1V has +6 armor RA/LA, +16 armor RL/LL, +10 structure RT/LT, +12 structure CT.

So... Literally every mech in MWO has... Say it with me now... Doubled armor... BEFORE quirks even some into play.

MWO unfortunately does not list the mechs internal structure numbers in the mechlab, but I'd be willing to bet real money that those numbers got doubled too. So, just for shites and giggles, the LCT-1V has the following structure values in the TRO.

Head: 3
CT: 6
RT/LT: 5
RA/LA: 3
RL/LL: 4

So assuming doubled structure values we would get...

Head: 6
CT: 12
RT/LT: 10
RA/LA: 6
RL/LL: 8

And that's before the quirks come into play, provided we are operating with doubled structure as well, which would require digging into the actual game files and I don't have a bloody clue how to do that, nor do I really want to.

So I don't know where your comment about internals being half the max armor value came from, because the numbers I just gave here don't support that point of view.

[Scout Derek]

Alan Davion, on 09 May 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

Uh-huh... Then why does the Locust 1V in my 3025 TRO have armor stats like this...

Head: 8
CT: 10/2
RT/LT: 8/2
RA/LA: 4
RL/LL: 8

And the Locust 1V in MWO has armor stats like this...

Head: 16
CT: 20/4
RT/LT: 16/4
RA/LA: 8
RL/LL: 16

Gee... Seems like that's doubled armor right there. And those are the absolute baseline stats.

Now we get into the quirks.

LCT-1V has +6 armor RA/LA, +16 armor RL/LL, +10 structure RT/LT, +12 structure CT.

So... Literally every mech in MWO has... Say it with me now... Doubled armor... BEFORE quirks even some into play.

MWO unfortunately does not list the mechs internal structure numbers in the mechlab, but I'd be willing to bet real money that those numbers got doubled too. So, just for shites and giggles, the LCT-1V has the following structure values in the TRO.

Head: 3
CT: 6
RT/LT: 5
RA/LA: 3
RL/LL: 4

So assuming doubled structure values we would get...

Head: 6
CT: 12
RT/LT: 10
RA/LA: 6
RL/LL: 8

And that's before the quirks come into play, provided we are operating with doubled structure as well, which would require digging into the actual game files and I don't have a bloody clue how to do that, nor do I really want to.

So I don't know where your comment about internals being half the max armor value came from, because the numbers I just gave here don't support that point of view.

I'll have to agree with Alan here, as it's been explained before.

CaveMan, on 31 October 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Trying to figure out what the internal structure values for each chassis are (how much damage a section can take after its armor is destroyed).

In BattleTech, it's normally half the maximum amount of armor points in a location. But in MWO it seems to be considerably more than this. IE, hitting a Raven with 5 medium pulse lasers in the leg twice should chew the leg clean off, but that doesn't happen.

Anyone have answers on this one?

3rdworld, on 31 October 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Doubled armor & IS. Heads are actually more,

MustrumRidcully, on 22 January 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

It seems this is still a topic with no known answer. I presume the stats can't be found in the itemstats.xml or similar files...

EDIT: There is a post by Bryan Ekman in the archive that seems to suggest it's twice internal and double armour. But it's from May, it could be obsolete. But I would now erring on assuming both values have been doubled.

I'll be looking for Bryan's post in the archive.

Edited by Scout Derek, 09 May 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Scout Derek, on 09 May 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'll have to agree with Alan here, as it's been explained before. EDIT: quote button is messing with me.

It's not just the quote button, but I see what you mean now. I clicked quote and it brought me into the full post editor, not the quick post at the bottom of the thread.

The "Go To First Unread Post" button is borked too. Just brings you to the top of the last page of the thread.

[Scout Derek]

Alan Davion, on 09 May 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

It's not just the quote button, but I see what you mean now. I clicked quote and it brought me into the full post editor, not the quick post at the bottom of the thread.

The "Go To First Unread Post" button is borked too. Just brings you to the top of the last page of the thread.

Actually, it wasn't that, when quoting the old post, it didn't place another /quote.

However, back on topic, I dug a bit, and in fact everything has been doubled, hell, there was even a big argument as to not double the values. Crazy peeps back then, but, hey, that was when they were relatively new to making new mechs and such.

Wow, haha, actually, here's the quotes thread that they were talking about, read through a bit, and you'll find Bryan's posts.

http://mwomercs.com/...g/page__st__300

Edited by Scout Derek, 09 May 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Scout Derek, on 09 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Actually, it wasn't that, when quoting the old post, it didn't place another /quote.

However, back on topic, I dug a bit, and in fact everything has been doubled, hell, there was even a big argument as to not double the values. Crazy peeps back then, but, hey, that was when they were relatively new to making new mechs and such.

Wow, haha, actually, here's the quotes thread that they were talking about, read through a bit, and you'll find Bryan's posts.

http://mwomercs.com/...g/page__st__300

Ah, well the quote button and the go to unread post button seem to be working properly now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alan Davion, on 09 May 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

So I don't know where your comment about internals being half the max armor value came from, because the numbers I just gave here don't support that point of view.

Maybe my post wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about prior MW titles, NOT TT. It is very much double the amount in TT, I'm clearly aware of that, but it is NOT double prior titles, at least all of them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 May 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[davoodoo]

Alphas are an issue because youre not firing your 50+ alpha at atlas with 612 points of armor, you hit exactly his ct with at best 124 points of armor.
If your shots were somewhat spread accros armor then you would simply overheat before you can actually do significant dmg where mechs with sustained fire would whittle you down.

Pinpoint accuracy is pretty terrible, have heat actually affect accuracy.

Edited by davoodoo, 09 May 2016 - 11:42 AM.