173 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 08 May 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

yes and what you say would make the difference in w/l between is and clan smaller then realy is tnx for pointing it out..

You are completely missing every point I have made...please drop the discussion.

[Aresye]

L3mming2, on 08 May 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

yes and what you say would make the difference in w/l between is and clan smaller then realy is tnx for pointing it out..

Considering that MercStar and KCom are currently Clan, and have been for this entire event, any IS freelance pilots are more likely to drop against a premade of them than they are to drop against anything else, leading to a lower WLR.

On the other side, any Clan freelance pilots are more likely to have groups/players from MS and KCom on their own team, leading to a higher WLR.

Your "evidence" ceases to have any weight until you can account for and eliminate this as a factor.

[L3mming2]

Aresye, on 08 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Considering that MercStar and KCom are currently Clan, and have been for this entire event, any IS freelance pilots are more likely to drop against a premade of them than they are to drop against anything else, leading to a lower WLR.

On the other side, any Clan freelance pilots are more likely to have groups/players from MS and KCom on their own team, leading to a higher WLR.

Your "evidence" ceases to have any weight until you can account for and eliminate this as a factor.

true, but to see if this inpact is that gr8 i would have to see on both sides how manny good units there are and how much of the drop % they do weighted by there respective w/l rates ect... i can do that buts a load of work do.. i inffact think actual ballance between is and clan in invasion is prety close, with a slight advantage for clan in scouting... the data i have seen seem to confirm that. but its ofc not a perfect picture. but atleast it gives a way better view then anecdotal evidence and theory crafting

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 08 May 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

but atleast it gives a way better view then anecdotal evidence and theory crafting

You provide anecdotal evidence and theory crafting...and then say that you are providing something different than that??

[L3mming2]

Gyrok, on 08 May 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

You provide anecdotal evidence and theory crafting...and then say that you are providing something different than that??

sinds when are (global)stats and math anecdotal ore theory crafting?

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 08 May 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

sinds when are (global)stats and math anecdotal ore theory crafting?

Global stats from Community Warfare, and math was provided in this thread by Aresye to prove the point about duration being a bigger difference for IS mechs than range.

Since when is math based on accurate information from the game files, rather than anecdotal evidence from a game mode with no relevance, less valuable?

[Lightfoot]

Because MWO's mechs are too fragile.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

simply put, if you can 2 shot an atlas with a black knight, theres a problem

and 50+ alpha, 112 or so CT front max in an atlas

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 08 May 2016 - 09:03 PM.

[JediPanther]

77 alpha cat laughs at high alpha crying;<a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=13&l=f989cb8bb7c29d3653aff207cf44b0f9efecf55f">CPLT-A1</a>

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 08 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Considering that MercStar and KCom are currently Clan, and have been for this entire event, any IS freelance pilots are more likely to drop against a premade of them than they are to drop against anything else, leading to a lower WLR.

On the other side, any Clan freelance pilots are more likely to have groups/players from MS and KCom on their own team, leading to a higher WLR.

Your "evidence" ceases to have any weight until you can account for and eliminate this as a factor.

Highest win/matchs played among loyalist or merc units are universally, Clan teams.

That says far more about this stupid event and how bad people are at playing IS vs Clan than any actual Clan/IS balance though. Scrow is OP vs bad pilots. Most pilots are bad pilots, ergo stacked wins.

However this fact is a balance issue fundamentally divorced from actual Clan/IS balance - all the 'this one mech is amazing' arguments are. A balance failure in a specific mechs design or quirking can't be used to indicate a balance issue with the tech bases.

The big stupid problem is that IS vs Clan balance is still off. Has been for years, in Clans favor. This is just pasted over with a completely neurotic schizophrenic quirking system. It also makes it even more difficult to counter-quirk bad Clan mechs up like IS mechs are.

Remove IS quirks, have small mobility/structure quirks on mechs with bad hitboxes/hardpoints and do that across the board - Clan or IS. Set minimum standards for hardpoints, enabling hardpoint inflation for everything from Spiders to Warhawks to meet minimum standards. Establish a baseline relative value for range/heat/damage/DPS/weight/spaces and start balancing weapons in that way with Clans having more range, higher damage, higher heat, longer cooldown. Abso-*******-lutely do NOT use duration as a balance factor between weapons of the same type - If it's a laser it's 1 second. Pulse, regular, etc.

For Clan/IS ballistics Clans have more UAC options but give them a small reduction in jam chance and higher velocity. This offsets the ability to boat more and carry more ammo compared to similar tonnage mechs. I'm game with significant increases in velocity to offset this - like 20-30% stuff.

For engines leave the CXL penalties and give IS XL engines a flat ST structure buff of 20% or something similar. Still death on ST loss but there's your final offset for survival vs death on ST loss.


Whoops. Sorry. Didn't mean to go off on fixes - hard not to do after a while. Just so frustrating. Balance has been broken for over 2 years now. 2 years. Most the fixes at this point feel like someone had a deadline to have 'some sort of fix ready by the next patch' so they just knock something out in 6 hours, test it and say they've been working on it all month.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The real issue is that overheating is not enough of a genuine threat in this game and decent pilots play with the override button duct taped down. I would suggest PGI starts by upping the amount of heat an engine produces based on size then go from there. That way if you want mobility AND huge vomit alphas, the risk feels more appropriate.

[H I A S]

For me Alphsstrikes and TTK is fine.
But im realy tired of the point and click hitscan bs in quickplay.
That is realy boring as hell.

I think its time for a metaswitch. Jumpsniping should come back. That was so much fun to have midair to midair fights with hit or miss weapons

Edited by arivio, 09 May 2016 - 02:35 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Aresye, on 08 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Considering that MercStar and KCom are currently Clan, and have been for this entire event, any IS freelance pilots are more likely to drop against a premade of them than they are to drop against anything else, leading to a lower WLR.

On the other side, any Clan freelance pilots are more likely to have groups/players from MS and KCom on their own team, leading to a higher WLR.

Your "evidence" ceases to have any weight until you can account for and eliminate this as a factor.

From personal experience it hardly matters who is on a team if they're mostly PUGs, any half decent organized group will stomp them regardless. One or two players from MS, Kcom, 228 or any other unit you care to mention will not carry a match unless the opposing team is equally disorganized. Notice how the clan with the worst win/loss ratio is also the one with few competent teams at the moment?

[Karl Streiger]

arivio, on 09 May 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

I think its time for a metaswitch. Jumpsniping should come back. That was so much fun to have midair to midair fights with hit or miss weapons

at last the SRM hit detection works adequate and this was the only issue with hip hoping snipers (ok maybe we can't have working jumpjets and working SRMs at the same time)

[Curccu]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 May 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

simply put, if you can 2 shot an atlas with a black knight, theres a problem

and 50+ alpha, 112 or so CT front max in an atlas

Well you can't 2-shot an Atlas from front CT with a Black Knight.
124 total armor CT, most people have ~5-20 in the back.. so lets say 100 armor in front CT which is less than it really usually is.
Then we add Internal Structure which is 62 + quirk bonus which is 31 and add them up (Yes I know internals are not 1:1 to armor because of the crits but it's pretty close) =193 hitpoints total.
Most common black knight 7-KNT-L alpha is 58 (3xLPL + 5xML) and with my crappy math it requires ~3.3 alphas to the CT to kill an atlas, that is if you can keep 100% of the beam duration in that CT, which isn't easy if Atlas pilot tries to tank even a little.

JediPanther, on 08 May 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

77 alpha cat laughs at high alpha crying;<a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=13&l=f989cb8bb7c29d3653aff207cf44b0f9efecf55f">CPLT-A1</a>

I laugh at your build and linking skillz .
+ SRM6 launchers (specially without artemis) are not pinpoint damage so you cannot put that whole alpha into one location

arivio, on 09 May 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

For me Alphsstrikes and TTK is fine.
But im realy tired of the point and click hitscan bs in quickplay.
That is realy boring as hell.

I think its time for a metaswitch. Jumpsniping should come back. That was so much fun to have midair to midair fights with hit or miss weapons

I'm in!
Ahh those all might 35 dmg alphas that everyone are still scared off

[MischiefSC]

arivio, on 09 May 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

For me Alphsstrikes and TTK is fine.
But im realy tired of the point and click hitscan bs in quickplay.
That is realy boring as hell.

I think its time for a metaswitch. Jumpsniping should come back. That was so much fun to have midair to midair fights with hit or miss weapons

With other weapons being more viable (SRMs actually hit now for example) I'm all for putting JJs back.

However I don't think the poptart meta would come back - that was back in the day when at 35pt alpha was plenty. We got Ghost Heat right after Jags came out because 2xAC20 2MLs was a 50 pt alpha and it was JUST TOO HIGH.

Then Clans came out and now?

You need to be over 40. If you're bigger than 25 tons and have a 35pt alpha or less you'd better be a Mauler or hardcore dakka boat.

Currently a 50 pt alpha gets you 'huh. Not bad. Probably viable, is it all hitscan? Is it heat efficient enough?' A Boomjag? Why waste 65 tons? Ain't nobody scared of that.

Edited by MischiefSC, 09 May 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

Alphastrikes wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't that pretty dump easy to use lasers. For alle other weapons u need aiming skills but not for lasers. That's why most guys use them. Change laser shots to salvos like clan uacs and I think the game would get much more enjoyable.



(just skip to 1:04)

[Widowmaker1981]

MischiefSC, on 07 May 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Well, for players who have good twist reflexes and can exploit a .4 seconds advantage on burntime for twisting to win that trade.

For perspective the players who can consistently do that could all road trip on the same tour bus.

David Bowie has, without question, banged more people than that includes.

are you trying to say there are less than millions of people in the world who could take advantage of an extra 0.4 seconds of burntime? Are you an idiot?

almost everyone on the planet can react in under 0.8 seconds. a MUCH SMALLER subset of people can react in 0.4s - see my point?

I think you are getting confused with the fact that its almost impossible to react to things which take a total of ~0.5s

Edit: To elaborate, lets say Bill the happy mech shooter is happily stomping along in his mech. Hes kinda old and doesnt have the best reactions ever, so it takes him on average 0.6 seconds to realise hes getting shot at and begin to twist. Vs BK 0.77s laser fire he now has 0.17 seconds to twist before the end of the beam. against clan 1.15s laser fire he has 0.55s, or over three times as long to spread that damage about. See why the extra 0.4s matters, now?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 May 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

Alpha strikes are not a current problem, they have always been a problem.

There seems to be 2 main reasons for this:

Heat scale: most stock mechs were designed to have enough heat sinks to almost cover the heat generated by firing an alpha, let alone run (2 heat) and jump (jump distance in heat).
In MWO you get the same +30 Heat scale but no penalties.
e.g. A 15 HS mech with 17 heat of weapons could fire an alpha and walk with no penalty ONCE the next time you slow down after that the penalties increase.
in MWO you fire your 17 heat Alpha and your heat scale goes to just above 1/3 fire a second about 2/3 the way up and with cool down you can probably fire a 3rd without any penalty.

Armour: although doubled armour is still based off of TT values, and that’s fine if you are rolling 2d6 to see where you hit (with each weapon).
In a FPS (manual targeting) with pinpoint accuracy of all weapons hitting where aimed, this system just does not work.
Not only is armour not enough, it is also too much, because we also need the Gauss Rifle and AC20 to be scary weapons and not just a little bit bigger than the others.

It only seems a current issue because the power creep since the clan introduction has been huge. (Mostly by boosting Inner Sphere mechs & weapons to be competitive)

And these topics have been covered multiple times with zero effect.

[nehebkau]

L3mming2, on 08 May 2016 - 02:59 AM, said:

here the clan w/l ratio is 0.62889 and the is w/l ratio is 0.56307.

so when there is no units involved the clans still have a significantly higher win rate...

Using facts and logic is a banable offense in these forums -- you have been warned.