173 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 07 May 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

Then the game would descend into long range battles with LRMs becoming the new super weapon.

Increasing cooldowns would affect LRMs too you know. Plus, LRMs are currently just about the worst weapons in the game, with the exception being LRM5s which allow for more effective chain firing, and less wasted missiles when they actually hit the target compared to 10s/15s/20s.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why do you think alpha strikes are currently an issue?

What makes Alpha's currently an issue is that there is little penalty for using them.. You shut down and get "minor" CT damage, big deal, in exchange you essentially have an "I win" button. PGI needs to implement what has always been a part of Battletech/Mechwarrior for using an Alpha... Destruction. Many mechs "Can" Alpha without consequence because the weapons merely generate enough heat to bring it to near heat sink capacity. Mech Loadouts that Exceed that capacity shouldn't have he same benefit. There's a reason Clan mechs, like the Nova and Supernova, don't fire Alphas, Their engines cannot contain that much heat at once, causing the mech to explode. PGI "NEEDS" to implement this, in CBT and previous MW titles, attempting to "Alpha" with boated weapon loadouts was a death sentence.. for you, and needs to be in the game.

Now, in CBT, a Mech can Safely alpha "If" and only if the total heat of the weapons does not exceed the Heat Sinks heat Dissipation +10, exceeding that means death, anything underneath is safe, but still has risks, such as cooking your ammo (if you have any). For Example, You have 18 DBL HS (36 Heat Absorption), You can "Safely" Fire 2 ER PPC's, an Awesome, with 3 ERR PPC's could fire 2 Safely simultaneously, followed by the 3rd as the heat dropped off. Firing all 3 At once however would shut the mech down. Now, as Awesomes typically carry a SM laser and assuming you were in range, and fired all 4 Weapons, Would Explode.. 3 ER PPC's is 45 Heat, +4 from the SM Laser =49 Heat, Exceeding the heat threshold by 1, meaning, you may kill the target, but you would explode as well, as your engine could only have sustained 48 Absorption.

This was a mechanic that made you balance your build and prevented you from killing yourself. Hence why the Nova, and Supernova rarely fired more than 1/2 of their weapons (Primary Configuration) at once. 12 ER ML at once on a Nova, Or 6 ER LL at once on either of them was a death sentence.

People in MWO should play Smarter.. Not boat as many lasers as possible... Not that I don't have a few boats myself, but I usually fire in groups of 3-4 or chainfire, limiting my heat, and alpha only as a last resort, which is as it should be.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 07 May 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

Then the game would descend into long range battles with LRMs becoming the new super weapon.

If every single weapon had it's cooldown lengthened by the same %, every weapon would still be exactly how they are now in relation to each other......

You just couldn't shoot as often.....leading to longer TTK.

Assuming that's their only goal that is.

[MischiefSC]

Except you just create a more hide and poke game.

Reduce damage/shot instead.

Ideally reduce damage/shot, increase rof and reduce armor. Longer TTK without slower gameplay.

[Celtic Warrior IS]

Because this is not a mech simulator game this is Call of Duty online!! If MWO was as good as MW3 which was more a simulator game than a shooter game then alpha strikes make less sense because you have more time and range to change weapons.

MWO is fun but don't make the mistake thinking this is more then just a brainless shooter!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Celtic Warrior IS, on 07 May 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

MWO is fun but don't make the mistake thinking this is more then just a brainless shooter!!

Lawl.

Enjoy the underhive then.

[LordNothing]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 May 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

Lawl.

Enjoy the underhive then.

i dont know. if thinking is another word for sitting down and doing nothing, then most of the player base belongs in the underhive. granted in an organized team there is a time to sit back and club seals, but the average player usually doesn't have the situational awareness to know when that is. it just leads to not fun gameplay. lots of players will camp till they get run down by an angry pack of squirrels. its really been ruining the game for me.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 May 2016 - 10:46 PM.

[Aresye]

Celtic Warrior IS, on 07 May 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

Because this is not a mech simulator game this is Call of Duty online!! If MWO was as good as MW3 which was more a simulator game than a shooter game then alpha strikes make less sense because you have more time and range to change weapons.

MW3 had perfect convergence. MW3 had boating. It was just as much a regular FPS as MWO is.

It DID have more information displays you could toggle though, and it had things like active/passive radar, but the core mechanics were nothing more than an FPS with tanks on legs, just like MW2, MW4, and MWO.

Once you learned how to lag shoot (which wasn't very hard to do), all you did was load up on lasers and pulse lasers (the latter being exceptionally useful for lag shooting) and went to town.

Mechs didn't have structure quirks, and Clan tech was extremely OP, so online play was generally nothing more than a matter of, "Sweep the legs with pulse lasers, watch them fall over, shoot everything into their face as they tried to stand up, and laugh when they complain about you breaking the 'no-legging' rules."

MWO may not have as many features, but it has way better balance, higher TTK, and no lag shooting required. All of which contribute to a much better online game.

Take off the rose-tinted glasses. I played MW3 a lot (was my first online gaming experience), and even played in competitive leagues for it. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that garbage.

Single player was pretty dope though.

[monk]

Alpha strikes are an issue because we can aim. In TT you rolled dice. A mouse (or your input device of choice) is simply a more accurate tool. While some effort was made to mitigate this, the measures were not sufficient in the current power growth. The problem is the incentive to shoot anything besides the CT is in most cases very small. (Sure, sometimes legs, sometimes a specific part of a mech based on the core design of the mechs' hard points, etc.) Additionally, to date, most of the suggestions have been either outright disregarded as too complicated for the game populace or viewed as technically non-viable. So here's something simple that in theory would help improve the reason to shoot something other than just the CT, while naturally increasing TTK, tactical options in a battle, and mitigate the value of the insane alphas that currently exist. Specific numbers would probably need tweaking, but the core functionality should remain viable.

- Double the max armor for each mech, but assign these new possible points as follows: CT max armor increases 50% and each of the side torso max armor values increase 25%. Each point of armor still weighs the same as in the current system (32 points of armor per ton). Using max torso armor will potentially give incentive to shoot other parts of a mech before eliminating it from the field. Taking off an arm or weapon system may be a better tactic than simply dumping alpha after alpha into the CT. Additionally, mechs with many torso based weapons will become further differentiated from those with arm based weaponry while not becoming outright superior.

- Double ammo per ton for all ammo based weapons. Because an increase in armor affects ammo based weaponry uniquely, there will need more ammunition per ton for those systems to stay viable.

- Increase burn times or cooldown of all weaponry by 30%. This will allow for players to rotate and spread damage more effectively and increase the options a player has when engaging. Lasers will require longer time for max damage. Pulse lasers will make sense in that they are extra hot for more immediate and less spread damage. Ammo based weapons will provide quick burst, but will have longer cooldowns between shots. Weapon systems are further differentiated while no system becomes the clear go to winner. Lasers = Damage over time (DOT) with ability to adjust aim. Pulse lasers = Hotter but faster DOT which can still be aim corrected. AC = burst with longer cooldowns and no target correction. Clan AC = dot burst with longer cooldowns and moderate target correction. Missiles remain mostly the same (they need their own specific fixes).

Edited by monk, 07 May 2016 - 11:43 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

alpha is not an issue at all,
the lasers are short duration yes but if you roll your torso at the exact rythm they cannot hurt you. (your components are affected with 1 dmg each)
you can get this rythm down it's like a fighting game (1vs1 street fighter, you block then punch)
it's easy to beat laser mechs like this with srm shotgun blasts but i die if they get many shots before i come in

this is similar to how shotgun weapons work vs full auto weapons in other games, it's intuitive and it makes a nice balance in the gameplay.

nothing needs to be changed.

if you want your duration to compete with quirked LL then go for pulses and walk inside their range, or is it impossible? it might be impossible 10% of the time but you still got 90% of matches where you haven't lost by default. why cry? how is it unfair?i


in fact laser is currently the only weapon that you kinda always want quirks for, unless it's "for poking"
because a large laser on it's own is pretty lackluster

Edited by Mazzyplz, 07 May 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Michael Kail]

Hello! I'm new to the forum discussions, but an old-time BT player and I love MWO. I've played MWO for two years now, but I don't think I've ever used an alpha strike. Am I missing out on a knockout-punch maneuver?

I guess my question is this: What's the difference between using the alpha strike key and firing all of my weapon groups at the same time?

For instance, take my part-time scout 'mech, the Cicada 2AC with 6 medium lasers. I have three on FG1 and the other three on FG2. Is there any benefit to using the Alpha Strike key over just pushing both mouse buttons at the same time?

In another instance, I have a Highlander 733C with an AC20, 2 MPLs, a NARC, and 2 SRM6s. (I'm considering some changes to this one's weapon loadout). What if I just pushed all of my FG buttons at the same time? Is that any different than using the alpha strike key?

In a last instance, my Highlander 733P has 4 LPLs, and an LRM20. What are the permutations of Alpha Strike key versus just pushing all my FG buttons at once?

Don't hurt me!

[Mazzyplz]

there's literally no difference, except sometimes you can't press all your buttons at once because they are on keyboard.
i have only used alpha maneuver to overheat myself on a desperate shots to kill ac40 jagermechs when they didn't have ghost heat.

for laser boat mechs it is a common strategy to boat low heat low cycle time lasers and "alpha"

but this is only one choice players have. i like to get 3 big large pulses instead and then the other 3 hardpoints can be small lasers for all i care tbh


even still. i once turned a corner with a banshee who shot me with 7 large pulses for 77 dmg. but my front armor is 96. so he overheated for nothing and i chain fired and killed him.
his build was not realistic, i have run a banshee and you can realistically do 5 pulses for 55 dmg. but it's not exactly easy to kill stuff with that either, at least not imo. it won't turn you into a direstar.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 May 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[Pjwned]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 07 May 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I don't understand by PGI doesn't simply increase cool down times across the board?

I know I for one, would spend less time spraying whenever I could for free damage, and only shooting when I knew the shot would count.

Probably because that's a really bad and forced solution that doesn't really address any underlying problems.

Nyte Kitsune, on 07 May 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

What makes Alpha's currently an issue is that there is little penalty for using them.. You shut down and get "minor" CT damage, big deal, in exchange you essentially have an "I win" button. PGI needs to implement what has always been a part of Battletech/Mechwarrior for using an Alpha... Destruction. Many mechs "Can" Alpha without consequence because the weapons merely generate enough heat to bring it to near heat sink capacity. Mech Loadouts that Exceed that capacity shouldn't have he same benefit. There's a reason Clan mechs, like the Nova and Supernova, don't fire Alphas, Their engines cannot contain that much heat at once, causing the mech to explode. PGI "NEEDS" to implement this, in CBT and previous MW titles, attempting to "Alpha" with boated weapon loadouts was a death sentence.. for you, and needs to be in the game.

Now, in CBT, a Mech can Safely alpha "If" and only if the total heat of the weapons does not exceed the Heat Sinks heat Dissipation +10, exceeding that means death, anything underneath is safe, but still has risks, such as cooking your ammo (if you have any). For Example, You have 18 DBL HS (36 Heat Absorption), You can "Safely" Fire 2 ER PPC's, an Awesome, with 3 ERR PPC's could fire 2 Safely simultaneously, followed by the 3rd as the heat dropped off. Firing all 3 At once however would shut the mech down. Now, as Awesomes typically carry a SM laser and assuming you were in range, and fired all 4 Weapons, Would Explode.. 3 ER PPC's is 45 Heat, +4 from the SM Laser =49 Heat, Exceeding the heat threshold by 1, meaning, you may kill the target, but you would explode as well, as your engine could only have sustained 48 Absorption.

This was a mechanic that made you balance your build and prevented you from killing yourself. Hence why the Nova, and Supernova rarely fired more than 1/2 of their weapons (Primary Configuration) at once. 12 ER ML at once on a Nova, Or 6 ER LL at once on either of them was a death sentence.

People in MWO should play Smarter.. Not boat as many lasers as possible... Not that I don't have a few boats myself, but I usually fire in groups of 3-4 or chainfire, limiting my heat, and alpha only as a last resort, which is as it should be.

That wouldn't do much except limit the highest possible heat laser alphas, which tend to be featured in builds that aren't very good in the first place anyways.

It's also dumb to act like shutting down is no big deal when it kind of is, you're a sitting duck and an easy target for anybody to come along and core out your torso/legs.

You also seem to ignore that players don't fire off a 12 laser alpha anyways because of massive ghost heat.

Edited by Pjwned, 08 May 2016 - 12:58 AM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Pjwned, on 08 May 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

Probably because that's a really bad and forced solution that doesn't really address any underlying problems.

Literally nothing but throwing away half the mechs they've released and starting over without the constant power creep is going to address the "underlying problems".

[Pjwned]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 08 May 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

Literally nothing but throwing away half the mechs they've released and starting over without the constant power creep is going to address the "underlying problems".

Wouldn't need to throw out mechs (other than clan battlemechs maybe) to fix most if not all of the problems, but yes it would require a lot of crap getting overhauled.

[Seraph6]

It should be easy to identify the unbalanced aspects of the game.

If you look at all the tier 1 players and what mech/loadouts they mostly use.

I'm making the assumption getting to tier 1 means you understand the game mechanics, therefore which loadouts will give you greatest advantage in the most scenarios (I understand ballistics being better on hot maps .. But most meta loadouts are 3xLPL/LL plus 5-6xMPL/ML). This highlights the unbalanced mechs and weapons. People are going to use the tools at their disposal that give them the edge competitively.

You'd know if you got the balance right as you'd see a lot of variety in terms of mech choice/loadout in games with the top players instead of just Black Knights and Timberwolves(with a few others that have laser perks/hard points).

They did introduce Ghost heat to balance alpha strikes. It just needs a tweak again to moderate the laser vomit builds that are dominant at the moment.

[Satan n stuff]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

OP

Is there any topic you won't use to cry "nerf IS"? Clans have high alpha low facetime mechs too, in case you're not aware.

[xe N on]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

My thoughts run to the issue being with the extremely short duration of IS lasers meaning mechs can put 58 damage onto a single component faster than someone can twist to spread that damage.

In my opinion, alpha strikes don't generally reduce the TTK, but can result even in an increased TTK. The reason is, that between two alpha strike you can spread incoming damage. In continuous DPS based combat (e.g. dakka builds) you need to face your target and thus cannot spread damage.

So, allowing some sort of alpha strike is not generally bad. But, as you already stated, there is a nimble balance. High damage alpha strikes delivered in short time are bad for the overall gameplay.

IS autocannon alphas are limited by the comparable low damage to weight ratio and Clan ultra-autocannons have a "burn time".

SRMs generally have a short range, spread and some sort of velocity limitation.

LRMs ... are simply bad.

Laser, on the other hand, are currently over the top. The can be easily boated because of low weight and give high damage (at low DPS and high heat). In addition, they are "point'n'hit" weapons, in combination with quirks almost pinpoint. Either, their damage needs to be decreased (while keeping the DPS) or the burn time needs to be increased.

And that is not a IS vs. Clan but a generally problem.

Edited by xe N on, 08 May 2016 - 02:48 AM.

[L3mming2]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

Really....the fact that they are second overall to CJF must be a misprint. That similar K/D and W/L must have been a figment of my imagination as well.

Additionally, most of the mercs probably went clans finally because they had all been IS side for so long their clan mechs had started to get dry rot in the mech bays. Expect that to change soon.



Actually...they are not. We have math for that, I know math is hard...but them's the breaks.

lol


FFR (1,11) are if you look at win ratio behind CJF (1,67) and behind CSJ (1,44) aaaaaand behind house liao (1.13)...

so 4th =/= 2nd

so much sarcasm wile being so wrong when the numbers are in front of your eyes...

and now the stats of the 1st 20 freelance pilots (so no units merc ore otherwise to dilute the results)





here the clan w/l ratio is 0.62889 and the is w/l ratio is 0.56307.

so when there is no units involved the clans still have a significantly higher win rate...

Edited by L3mming2, 08 May 2016 - 03:55 AM.

[Onuris]

Two/three possible ideas for change for mitigating group fired lasers:-

1) Lasers to not start cooldown until heat scale back down to some designated low level

and/or

2) Laser damage reduced directly in proportion to heat scale level (eg heat scale at 30%, damage reduced by 30%) above a designated heat scale level

I suppose they could also change group fired lasers to have a charge up time like the Gauss Rifle (charge time increased proportional to number of lasers grouped) ..... just not the loss of fire capacity like the Gauss Rifle.

<Apologies if these ideas have been passed around already>