173 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why do you think alpha strikes are currently an issue?

What would you do to change them, and why?

My thoughts run to the issue being with the extremely short duration of IS lasers meaning mechs can put 58 damage onto a single component faster than someone can twist to spread that damage.

I think if the egregiously short burn duration was mitigated, it would become less painful to take a laser alpha. They *are* supposed to be DoT...the clan lasers are clearly nearly twice the burn time, why should IS lasers be half the burn for 90% of the damage?

Being able to fire as many weapons as we can with pinpoint accuracy.

There is absolutely no weapon sway, no limit to the weapons we can fire outside of heat generation and hardpoint/tonnage. Don't even start with that "BUT MY SKILL!" crap... because having an unmoving reticule doesn't mean you have more skill, it just means you can push the button when the crosshair is exactly where you want it at all times.

TL;DR -
Too many weapons firing at a single time with pinpoint accuracy possible with weapons that are imbalanced in terms of their DoT values balanced with range, projectile speed (if applicable) and other various factors.

This game hasn't been properly balanced ever, and even then it was getting good pre-clan invasion. But then clans came, people QQ'd, PGI took an excessively large nerf bat to things and tried to keep people interested with hotfixes and random tweaks to smalls parts of the game and the big picture of balance got lost by the wayside in favor of 'flavor of the day' quirk passes and balance bandages.

[GorlockTheDestroyer]

wanderer, on 07 May 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Alpha strikes are an issue because they can and easily do end up punching into a single armor location.

A damage system transplanted from TT that relied on damage scattering across a target for decent TTK, mind you. While truly random damage to target would be absolute crap, there should at least be some locational deconvergence from the center pixel of your crosshairs when firing- something that would reduce how many weapons could hit a single location at the same time considerably without eliminating it entirely.

I dont wanna, but its time to be that "guy".

Keep moving. convergence mitigated.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Convergence is actually not the issue...

Convergence is only an issue if something like a HAG40 comes around, and is basically instant damage (not too likely).

As it stands, about the biggest convergence oriented alpha you have is 50 PPFLD, it takes a 90-100 ton mech to tote it onto the field, and while it stings to a single component, the DPS is atrocious compared to your average DPS build.

Additionally, anything that is not PPFLD can be spread via torso twist, except when the DoT application mechanic is so short that torso twist is no longer a viable mechanism for applying that damage to multiple locations. Which is what we are seeing right now with duration quirked laser vomit in IS mechs, especially when LPLs are involved.

EDIT: I stand corrected, IS can bring 60 PPFLD in a KGC/MAL with Double 20s and Double PPCs.

So...convergence is not the issue, but you bring up torso twisting as a defense against DoT weapons while ignoring that torso twisting is particularly effective because...it counters the converged weapons fire.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Faulty argument. You are looking at the symptoms here and not the cause. I do agree that duration quirks need to go away but the rest of this is about arbitrary nerfs where it's not needed and ignoring the real issue.

Ultimax, on 07 May 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

You will get destroyed in close range by SRM brawlers and they have pretty sizeable spread patterns when moving, how does that fit into your convergence theory?

Those SRMs are still always converged on the same spot, and not having perfect convergence would make them spread out further.

Aside from that, I don't see a problem with SRM brawlers destroying something in short range, so I don't know why you'd bring it up as if it is a problem.

Edited by Pjwned, 07 May 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[Aresye]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 May 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

The ER MLs don't have significant enough range advantage to counteract the laser duration anymore, that is the primary reason.

I guess I'll do some math again, although I'm pretty sure it's a moot point, as most folks will completely ignore the numbers even if it's proven beyond a doubt that the BK can trade more damage against a laser vomit EBJ even at its maximum optimal range.

I do it for folks like you Gas, because you get it. You see and experience it first hand.

Anyway, to the maths...

For this comparison I will be comparing the Black Knight w/ 3 LPL + 5 ML against the Ebon Jaguar w/ 2 CLPL + 5 CERML (has become more popular ever since the DHS changes allowed for faster dissipation). The range used for this comparison is the range at which the EBJ can output it's full 61 damage alpha, which will end up being 446m (405m x 1.1 for Range 5 Module). The BK will have the Range 5 Module as well for its medium lasers.

At 446m the EBJ will spit out 61 damage over 1.15s
At 324m the BK will spit out 58 damage over 0.77s

Looks like the EBJ is the clear winner, right? Hold that thought...

The CERML no longer has x2 optimal for its maximum range anymore, whereas the BK does, and the 10% range quirk + the Range 5 Module doesn't just affect optimal range, but MAX range as well, giving the BK a maximum range of 648m compared to the EBJ's 688m.

To truly figure out a damage/tick value, we need to calculate the EXACT damage that the BK will do at exactly 446m (EBJ's optimal range), and how we're going to do that is we're going to use simple linear interpolation for both the IS LPL and IS ML values on a BK with a Range 5 Module (Note: Only the ML have the R5 Module. This is assuming the BK is running LPL 5 Cooldown Module as recommended by metamechs).

D₁ = Full Damage
D₂ = 0 Damage
R₁ = Optimal Range
R₂ = Maximum Range

Let's do the medium lasers first. The BK has 5 of them, giving us 25 damage (D₁) @ 324m (R₁), and 0 damage (D₂) @ 648m (R₂). We're trying to find D₃, the damage value @ 446m (R₃).

To find the slope, we're going to use (D₂ - D₁) / (R₂ - R₁) = s, which we will then plug in to the equation D₃ = D₁ + s(R₃ - R₁) to find the damage.

(0 - 25) / (648 - 324) = -0.08
D₃ = 25 + -0.08(446 - 324)
D₃ = 15.24

Now that we have the medium lasers, let's add up the 3 LPLs and plug them into the same equation and solve for D₃ once again.

(0 - 33) / (803 - 402) = -0.08
D₃ = 33 + -0.08(446 - 402)
D₃ = 29.48

Add both D₃ values together and we get 44.72, so to make things easier we'll round that up and say that at 446m (EBJ's optimal range for full damage), the BK does ~ 45 damage.

Now we need to calculate laser durations in relation to tick rate.

From what we know, the tick rate for MWO's public servers is 30, based off a dev post from long ago after a hitreg fix went in. PGI said their servers were operating at a lower tick rate than their normal 30 (this post has since been removed).

Overall the tick rate doesn't matter btw. You could use damage per second, damage per 0.1s, etc. The overall ratio will be the same. I just like to use tick rate because it sounds fancier, and I like to be pretentious at times.

Using our 45 damage @ 446m we calculated from earlier, and adding in the -10% laser duration quirk the BK has, we get a total of 45 damage in 0.77s @ 446m.

To convert this to damage/tick, first I'm going to convert the laser duration and tick values into milliseconds:

1000ms / 30 ticks = 33.3333333
0.77s = 770ms

Now it's just simply divide 45 damage by 770ms and multiply by 33.3333333 to get damage per tick.

(45 / 770) x 33.3333333 = 1.948

So the BK does ~ 1.95 damage per tick.

To figure out the EBJ, we'll simply plug in our numbers from wayyyyy earlier, using 1.15s for the full duration to get 61 damage.

(61 / 1,150) x 33.3333333 = 1.768

So the EBJ does ~ 1.77 damage per tick.

Conclusion:
There is absolutely no doubt about it. Despite the EBJ having a higher alpha and greater range on its CERMLs, at its OPTIMAL RANGE, where it does a FULL 61 points of damage, the BK STILL has a higher damage output.

After that range the damage dropoff for the EBJ's CERMLs is much sharper than the BK's, so the BK will trade more favorably until it reaches it's maximum range for its LPLs, at which point the EBJ will then have the advantage in being able to shoot its 2 CLPLs to get some long range scratches in.

Good luck trying to take down a 75t IS mech with structure and torso twist rate quirks with only 2 CLPLs at scratching distance though. There's a very narrow window of a couple hundred meters where the EBJ will hold the advantage. Once the BK closes that range your favorable trades are over.

Honestly if you're wanting to compete against BK's in a laser vomit EBJ you're much better off with either a triple-CLPL or quad-CERLL loadout, and simply staying the f*** away.

[Tristan Winter]

Davers, on 07 May 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

I keep hearing in other threads that the power draw system isn't coming, so any discussion of it is kinda moot.

I doubt that has been confirmed yet. Russ has said that it's delayed and that it's tricky getting it to work, but I haven't seen any real information about it being scrapped.

[GorlockTheDestroyer]

Pjwned, on 07 May 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

So...convergence is not the issue, but you bring up torso twisting as a defense against DoT weapons while ignoring that torso twisting is particularly effective because...it counters the converged weapons fire.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Faulty argument. You are looking at the symptoms here and not the cause.

Please understand this is not a board game.
At its base this is a FPS.
Please start any first person shooter game you may have on your pc or console.
Launch into a multiplayer game.
Walk or Run to an enemy, see enemy, stand still, exchange fire. Tell me how that goes for you.

Deal with the reality of the game you've been given by the developers.
I like that there are so many voices that speak to an issue. This developer dosent. How so,they havent given hide nor hair in terms of convergence. Maybe a mumbled sentence in a town hall or two as of late. In the past it was a hard no or they dont know how.

[MischiefSC]

Because med-assault vs med-assault TTK is 3-6 seconds, 1 v 1. Closer to 3 on average than 6. All that slows this is peeking. When you get focus fire situations it's 2-3 seconds.

The que8is where do we want TTK? Understanding that the higher ttk is the bigger advantage skill and teamwork provide?

I'm in favor of increased TTK for that reason. We have too narrow of a gap. A ladder ranking in MWO would have 20k players, 2.5k players would be incredibly bad. a couple of hundred would have a relative challenge ranking on the top. The remaining 17K would be in a blob of statistically comparable ranks. Everyone's position within a magic of error to the other. Luck and pugging washing above, average and below into the same pool.

Stretch TTK not by increasing cooldowns but a shift away from high alpha to more DoT which shifts success further toward consistency and teamwork.

The problem is people thinking this helps bads - it does not. Longer TTK rewards higher skill more. It stretches that skill curve into an actual curve distributioninstead of the flat topped, sharp edged mesa we have now.

[Gyrok]

Pjwned, on 07 May 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

So...convergence is not the issue, but you bring up torso twisting as a defense against DoT weapons while ignoring that torso twisting is particularly effective because...it counters the converged weapons fire.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Faulty argument. You are looking at the symptoms here and not the cause. I do agree that duration quirks need to go away but the rest of this is about arbitrary nerfs where it's not needed and ignoring the real issue.



Those SRMs are still always converged on the same spot, and not having perfect convergence would make them spread out further.

Aside from that, I don't see a problem with SRM brawlers destroying something in short range, so I don't know why you'd bring it up as if it is a problem.

Convergence is not an issue, if DoT weapons function in a manner that allows them to be DoT.

PPFLD is the only thing where convergence becomes an issue, and IS has that by the ton. I am not really all that concerned about it at the moment though...the bigger issue is a laser DoT alpha that is applied so quickly that by the time your brain takes ~0.3 seconds to recognize the issue, and another ~0.2 seconds to react, you have already been hit with the full alpha to a component.

At that point, it essentially becomes PPFLD.

Edited by Gyrok, 07 May 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[Alan Hicks]

I just think and know that when in closer range, the IS has now the best part with alpha strikes, less damage, but also less of a chance to suffer from shutdown.

[Jman5]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why do you think alpha strikes are currently an issue?

What would you do to change them, and why?

My thoughts run to the issue being with the extremely short duration of IS lasers meaning mechs can put 58 damage onto a single component faster than someone can twist to spread that damage.

I think if the egregiously short burn duration was mitigated, it would become less painful to take a laser alpha. They *are* supposed to be DoT...the clan lasers are clearly nearly twice the burn time, why should IS lasers be half the burn for 90% of the damage?

Damage just got out of control and PGI practically gave up on their Ghost Heat mechanic. If they had continued tweaking ghost heat to take into account different weapon combinations like Medium + large lasers, alpha strikes would not be nearly as substantial.

There are a lot of smaller issues as well:

1. Low Beam Duration combined with beam duration quirks.

2. Double Cool shots giving laserboats 2 Get out of jail free cards when an opponent forces a prolonged fight. Coolshot becomes even more effective with more heatsinks which laserboats always have a lot of.

3. Inconsistent structure quirks. PGI tries to be cute here and make mechs "unique" but all they are doing is complicating everything and making a number of mechs DOA against the high alphastrike meta. They really need a uniform structure. Russ complained about how players are insisting on complexity, but when I suggest an easy to conceptualize and thematic approach to quirks, he dismisses it for the hodgepodge system we have now.

[Gyrok]

Aresye, on 07 May 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

I guess I'll do some math again, although I'm pretty sure it's a moot point, as most folks will completely ignore the numbers even if it's proven beyond a doubt that the BK can trade more damage against a laser vomit EBJ even at its maximum optimal range.

I do it for folks like you Gas, because you get it. You see and experience it first hand.

Anyway, to the maths...

For this comparison I will be comparing the Black Knight w/ 3 LPL + 5 ML against the Ebon Jaguar w/ 2 CLPL + 5 CERML (has become more popular ever since the DHS changes allowed for faster dissipation). The range used for this comparison is the range at which the EBJ can output it's full 61 damage alpha, which will end up being 446m (405m x 1.1 for Range 5 Module). The BK will have the Range 5 Module as well for its medium lasers.

At 446m the EBJ will spit out 61 damage over 1.15s
At 324m the BK will spit out 58 damage over 0.77s

Looks like the EBJ is the clear winner, right? Hold that thought...

The CERML no longer has x2 optimal for its maximum range anymore, whereas the BK does, and the 10% range quirk + the Range 5 Module doesn't just affect optimal range, but MAX range as well, giving the BK a maximum range of 648m compared to the EBJ's 688m.

To truly figure out a damage/tick value, we need to calculate the EXACT damage that the BK will do at exactly 446m (EBJ's optimal range), and how we're going to do that is we're going to use simple linear interpolation for both the IS LPL and IS ML values on a BK with a Range 5 Module (Note: Only the ML have the R5 Module. This is assuming the BK is running LPL 5 Cooldown Module as recommended by metamechs).

D₁ = Full Damage
D₂ = 0 Damage
R₁ = Optimal Range
R₂ = Maximum Range

Let's do the medium lasers first. The BK has 5 of them, giving us 25 damage (D₁) @ 324m (R₁), and 0 damage (D₂) @ 648m (R₂). We're trying to find D₃, the damage value @ 446m (R₃).

To find the slope, we're going to use (D₂ - D₁) / (R₂ - R₁) = s, which we will then plug in to the equation D₃ = D₁ + s(R₃ - R₁) to find the damage.

(0 - 25) / (648 - 324) = -0.08
D₃ = 25 + -0.08(446 - 324)
D₃ = 15.24

Now that we have the medium lasers, let's add up the 3 LPLs and plug them into the same equation and solve for D₃ once again.

(0 - 33) / (803 - 402) = -0.08
D₃ = 33 + -0.08(446 - 402)
D₃ = 29.48

Add both D₃ values together and we get 44.72, so to make things easier we'll round that up and say that at 446m (EBJ's optimal range for full damage), the BK does ~ 45 damage.

Now we need to calculate laser durations in relation to tick rate.

From what we know, the tick rate for MWO's public servers is 30, based off a dev post from long ago after a hitreg fix went in. PGI said their servers were operating at a lower tick rate than their normal 30 (this post has since been removed).

Overall the tick rate doesn't matter btw. You could use damage per second, damage per 0.1s, etc. The overall ratio will be the same. I just like to use tick rate because it sounds fancier, and I like to be pretentious at times.

Using our 45 damage @ 446m we calculated from earlier, and adding in the -10% laser duration quirk the BK has, we get a total of 45 damage in 0.77s @ 446m.

To convert this to damage/tick, first I'm going to convert the laser duration and tick values into milliseconds:

1000ms / 30 ticks = 33.3333333
0.77s = 770ms

Now it's just simply divide 45 damage by 770ms and multiply by 33.3333333 to get damage per tick.

(45 / 770) x 33.3333333 = 1.948

So the BK does ~ 1.95 damage per tick.

To figure out the EBJ, we'll simply plug in our numbers from wayyyyy earlier, using 1.15s for the full duration to get 61 damage.

(61 / 1,150) x 33.3333333 = 1.768

So the EBJ does ~ 1.77 damage per tick.

Conclusion:
There is absolutely no doubt about it. Despite the EBJ having a higher alpha and greater range on its CERMLs, at its OPTIMAL RANGE, where it does a FULL 61 points of damage, the BK STILL has a higher damage output.

After that range the damage dropoff for the EBJ's CERMLs is much sharper than the BK's, so the BK will trade more favorably until it reaches it's maximum range for its LPLs, at which point the EBJ will then have the advantage in being able to shoot its 2 CLPLs to get some long range scratches in.

Good luck trying to take down a 75t IS mech with structure and torso twist rate quirks with only 2 CLPLs at scratching distance though. There's a very narrow window of a couple hundred meters where the EBJ will hold the advantage. Once the BK closes that range your favorable trades are over.

Honestly if you're wanting to compete against BK's in a laser vomit EBJ you're much better off with either a triple-CLPL or quad-CERLL loadout, and simply staying the f*** away.

Awesome post, and discusses the issue clearly.

[L3mming2]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Actually, no...range quirks for IS mechs means that all small and medium class clan lasers are essentially equaled by other weapons that play the same range bracket. The difference is that the IS gets the damage done in half the face time, meaning they can twist away, while clans must wait for full burn or trade at a disadvantage.

Duration has nothing to do with range by the way.





And heavily nerfed DHS that mean less heat cap per DHS.

I am not against the style of play, it is ok to have that be a mechanic. What I think is that the ability to put a single alpha strike to a component larger than about 30-40 damage is a bit much...especially with a weapon like lasers.

In the case of a mech like the DW, well, it pays a heavy cost to run the cheese Gauss/PPC build for 50 pp. As would a KGC/Mauler or anything else really.

Now that IS lasers have become single component weapons...it puts those lasers a class above anything else that is not a single component weapon. Which brings us back to duration has nothing to do with tonnage.

if u look at FW u will see the overall win ratio of the clans is higer then IS

numbers;

[color=#959595]total wins IS 248525[/color]
[color=#959595]total loses IS 242139[/color]
[color=#959595]total w/l ratio IS 1.026[/color]

[color=#959595]total wins clan 177093[/color]
[color=#959595]total loses clan 143720[/color]
[color=#959595]total w/l ratio clan 1.232[/color]



so the poor underpowered clans seem to still do quite good...

so if u insist IS lasers are overpowered, (i dont agrea with that btw) then clearly the rest of the clan tech makes more then up for that...

ps, and if i am not mistaken thats even wile IS has a tonnage advantage..

Edited by L3mming2, 07 May 2016 - 02:49 PM.

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 07 May 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

if u look at FW u will see the overall win ratio of the clans is higer then IS

numbers;

[color=#959595]total wins IS 248525[/color]
[color=#959595]total loses IS 242139[/color]
[color=#959595]total w/l ratio IS 1.026[/color]

[color=#959595]total wins clan 177093[/color]
[color=#959595]total loses clan 143720[/color]
[color=#959595]total w/l ratio clan 1.232[/color]

so the poor underpowerd clans seem to still do quite good...

That is because mercs are in CJF.

Compare CW and CGB that have no mercs to CJF and CSJ that have mercs.

Then compare those stats to the stats of FRR that frequently has many mercs as well.

FW is a mode for big units that love FW.

Faction Warfare is a terrible place to try to hang balance ideas, justification for changes, or anything else really in relation to equipment/mechs/weapons. Respawns, and lack of enthusiasm from the vast majority of the player base for that mode make FW an island that has a separate set of constraints that exacerbate the issues found in mechs in general.

Solid skilled units could take 4 waves of urbies into FW and win against skittles...it is what it is.

[GreenHell]

Edit - I appologize ahead of time for the incoming wall of text... And to Gyrok for not checking the math first. Also, I've seen someone else posted some math to do with range. I wanted to post math without range just to get a basic idea of the problem, and make it easy to understand. -End Edit

Alright. Since I've been told to do the math, here it is. I'll admit I was wrong about the LPL and MPL, and that's my mistake. I was wrong. The others I was correct about though, at least for mechs without laser duration quirks. Quirks change everything...

I've used "DPS during Burn-Time" to make it easier to understand.

Stock numbers on UNQUIRKED, Mastered Mechs.

Clans
C-LPL
DMG-13
CD-3.09
BRN-1.12
Damage/Burn-Time=11.607~dps during burn

C-ERLL
DMG-11
CD-3.09
BRN-1.5
Damage/Burn-Time=7.333~dps during burn

C-ERML
DMG-7
CD-2.85
BRN-1.15
Damage/Burn-Time=6.087~dps during burn

C-MPL
DMG-8
CD-2.85
BRN-0.85
Damage/Burn-Time=9.412~dps during burn

Inner Sphere
IS-LPL
DMG-11
CD-3.09
BRN-0.67
Damage/Burn-Time=16.418~dps during burn <-Beats clan by 4.811 which is too much

IS-ERLL
DMG-9
CD-3.09
BRN-1.25
Damage/Burn-Time=7.2~dps during burn

IS-LL
DMG-9
CD-3.09
BRN-1.00
Damage/Burn-Time=9.0~dps during burn <-No clan version, but included it anyways.

IS-ML
DMG-5
CD-2.85
BRN-0.9
Damage/Burn-Time=5.555~dps during burn

IS-MPL
DMG-6
CD-2.85
BRN-0.6
Damage/Burn-Time=10.0~dps during burn <-Beats clan, but only by 0.588

I can see what you mean about the IS-LPL. It's way too far ahead of the C-LPL. The other weapons are within 0.5~dps of eachother during the burns. IS-LPL has 4.811~dps more during burn. Combined with being able to run x3 of them, that makes for a 26.04~dps advantage vs x2 C-LPL's during burn. And quirks? Well... that just opens a whole new can of worms. With a 10% duration quirk, that number goes up to 34.69~dps advantage during burn.

Now, all of that might be offset by the tonnage differences, but at least they could up the burn time on the IS-LPL to 0.9 which would put the two LPL's within 0.6~dps of eachother during burn. That would bring it back inline with the other weapons. Of course, that's ignoring range and heat... which PGI seems to put great stock in while we players kinda... don't.

Do you still think the BK would be OP if LPL's had a .8 or .9 burn time? I think they'd play exactly the same honestly. It would still be the same mech, with the same power, and the same~ish results. Maybe 1 or 2 more dead BK's per 10 games due to having to look at someone for .3 seconds longer. That's my opinion though so take it as you will.

These numbers look big, and that's because of the way I did the math. DPS across burn time LOOKS bigger than it is, but it gets the point across and clearly shows that the other weapons are actually fairly balanced when it comes to damage vs. burn time. It's the LPL specifically that has issues that probably need addressing.

Edited by GreenHell, 07 May 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 07 May 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

I guess I'll do some math again, although I'm pretty sure it's a moot point, as most folks will completely ignore the numbers even if it's proven beyond a doubt that the BK can trade more damage against a laser vomit EBJ even at its maximum optimal range.

I do it for folks like you Gas, because you get it. You see and experience it first hand.

Anyway, to the maths...

For this comparison I will be comparing the Black Knight w/ 3 LPL + 5 ML against the Ebon Jaguar w/ 2 CLPL + 5 CERML (has become more popular ever since the DHS changes allowed for faster dissipation). The range used for this comparison is the range at which the EBJ can output it's full 61 damage alpha, which will end up being 446m (405m x 1.1 for Range 5 Module). The BK will have the Range 5 Module as well for its medium lasers.

At 446m the EBJ will spit out 61 damage over 1.15s
At 324m the BK will spit out 58 damage over 0.77s

Looks like the EBJ is the clear winner, right? Hold that thought...

The CERML no longer has x2 optimal for its maximum range anymore, whereas the BK does, and the 10% range quirk + the Range 5 Module doesn't just affect optimal range, but MAX range as well, giving the BK a maximum range of 648m compared to the EBJ's 688m.

To truly figure out a damage/tick value, we need to calculate the EXACT damage that the BK will do at exactly 446m (EBJ's optimal range), and how we're going to do that is we're going to use simple linear interpolation for both the IS LPL and IS ML values on a BK with a Range 5 Module (Note: Only the ML have the R5 Module. This is assuming the BK is running LPL 5 Cooldown Module as recommended by metamechs).

D₁ = Full Damage
D₂ = 0 Damage
R₁ = Optimal Range
R₂ = Maximum Range

Let's do the medium lasers first. The BK has 5 of them, giving us 25 damage (D₁) @ 324m (R₁), and 0 damage (D₂) @ 648m (R₂). We're trying to find D₃, the damage value @ 446m (R₃).

To find the slope, we're going to use (D₂ - D₁) / (R₂ - R₁) = s, which we will then plug in to the equation D₃ = D₁ + s(R₃ - R₁) to find the damage.

(0 - 25) / (648 - 324) = -0.08
D₃ = 25 + -0.08(446 - 324)
D₃ = 15.24

Now that we have the medium lasers, let's add up the 3 LPLs and plug them into the same equation and solve for D₃ once again.

(0 - 33) / (803 - 402) = -0.08
D₃ = 33 + -0.08(446 - 402)
D₃ = 29.48

Add both D₃ values together and we get 44.72, so to make things easier we'll round that up and say that at 446m (EBJ's optimal range for full damage), the BK does ~ 45 damage.

Now we need to calculate laser durations in relation to tick rate.

From what we know, the tick rate for MWO's public servers is 30, based off a dev post from long ago after a hitreg fix went in. PGI said their servers were operating at a lower tick rate than their normal 30 (this post has since been removed).

Overall the tick rate doesn't matter btw. You could use damage per second, damage per 0.1s, etc. The overall ratio will be the same. I just like to use tick rate because it sounds fancier, and I like to be pretentious at times.

Using our 45 damage @ 446m we calculated from earlier, and adding in the -10% laser duration quirk the BK has, we get a total of 45 damage in 0.77s @ 446m.

To convert this to damage/tick, first I'm going to convert the laser duration and tick values into milliseconds:

1000ms / 30 ticks = 33.3333333
0.77s = 770ms

Now it's just simply divide 45 damage by 770ms and multiply by 33.3333333 to get damage per tick.

(45 / 770) x 33.3333333 = 1.948

So the BK does ~ 1.95 damage per tick.

To figure out the EBJ, we'll simply plug in our numbers from wayyyyy earlier, using 1.15s for the full duration to get 61 damage.

(61 / 1,150) x 33.3333333 = 1.768

So the EBJ does ~ 1.77 damage per tick.

Conclusion:
There is absolutely no doubt about it. Despite the EBJ having a higher alpha and greater range on its CERMLs, at its OPTIMAL RANGE, where it does a FULL 61 points of damage, the BK STILL has a higher damage output.

After that range the damage dropoff for the EBJ's CERMLs is much sharper than the BK's, so the BK will trade more favorably until it reaches it's maximum range for its LPLs, at which point the EBJ will then have the advantage in being able to shoot its 2 CLPLs to get some long range scratches in.

Good luck trying to take down a 75t IS mech with structure and torso twist rate quirks with only 2 CLPLs at scratching distance though. There's a very narrow window of a couple hundred meters where the EBJ will hold the advantage. Once the BK closes that range your favorable trades are over.

Honestly if you're wanting to compete against BK's in a laser vomit EBJ you're much better off with either a triple-CLPL or quad-CERLL loadout, and simply staying the f*** away.

OR take a srm/spl tbr. That dance is settled by how the TBR manages his approach and is, otherwise, pretty close.

However do keep in mind that the math you're talking about plays out for a narrow group of players. For most people the EBJ skylines himself and stands there staring at the BK, who charges directly at him twisting only to alpha at a locust 500m away (MLs as well) before face-humping the immobile EBJ while both are at 90% heat and chain firing rules of Queensburystyle until one alphas, overheats and dies.

The BK and the SCR in scouting are clear examples of why quirks /= balance. Sure, make the lpl .8 or even 1 second. That's going to buff LL and ballistics both indirectly and broaden viable builds. However it's only heat gen quirks that make the IS/Clan laser meta "comparable". That's not really balance.

[Gyrok]

GreenHell, on 07 May 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Edit - I appologize ahead of time for the incoming wall of text... And to Gyrok for not checking the math first. Also, I've seen someone else posted some math to do with range. I wanted to post math without range just to get a basic idea of the problem, and make it easy to understand. -End Edit

Alright. Since I've been told to do the math, here it is. I'll admit I was wrong about the LPL and MPL, and that's my mistake. I was wrong. The others I was correct about though, at least for mechs without laser duration quirks. Quirks change everything...

I've used "DPS during Burn-Time" to make it easier to understand.

Stock numbers on UNQUIRKED, Mastered Mechs.

Clans
C-LPL
DMG-13
CD-3.09
BRN-1.12
Damage/Burn-Time=11.607~dps during burn

C-ERML
DMG-7
CD-2.85
BRN-1.15
Damage/Burn-Time=6.087~dps during burn

C-MPL
DMG-8
CD-2.85
BRN-0.85
Damage/Burn-Time=9.412~dps during burn

Inner Sphere
IS-LPL
DMG-11
CD-3.09
BRN-0.67
Damage/Burn-Time=16.418~dps during burn <-Beats clan by 4.811 which is too much

IS-LL
DMG-9
CD-3.09
BRN-1.00
Damage/Burn-Time=9.0~dps during burn <-No clan version, but included it anyways.

IS-MPL
DMG-6
CD-2.85
BRN-0.6
Damage/Burn-Time=10.0~dps during burn <-Beats clan, but only by 0.588

This is really the crux of the issue here...

Inside the 500m bracket...IS is insanely stronger. The IS ML is pretty much on par with the ERML, except drastically more heat efficient.

The other issue is, specifically, that the clans have no answer to the STD LL.

That weapon dominates the 500m range bracket along with LPLs, and there is literally no answer. The ERML is about 60% of the DPS, and less range, but the clans need to get the range back on the ERML to be able to trade against LL/LPL boats and be able to maintain any semblance of equal damage per facetime at 500m.

EDIT: Restoring full double fall off also brings MPLs into viability at that range bracket as well...

Edited by Gyrok, 07 May 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Alan Davion]

UncleTouchy, on 07 May 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

Please understand this is not a board game.
At its base this is a FPS.
Please start any first person shooter game you may have on your pc or console.
Launch into a multiplayer game.
Walk or Run to an enemy, see enemy, stand still, exchange fire. Tell me how that goes for you.

Deal with the reality of the game you've been given by the developers.
I like that there are so many voices that speak to an issue. This developer dosent. How so,they havent given hide nor hair in terms of convergence. Maybe a mumbled sentence in a town hall or two as of late. In the past it was a hard no or they dont know how.

Yes, MWO is an FPS game. An FPS game based on the TT BT rules. Or at least it was when it started out. We've moved so far out into left field recently the TT rules have been buried underneath all the stinking bandaids PGI has slapped onto the game.

TT armor and structure values were predicated on the dice rolls determining where you hit, how much damage you did, and depending on the weapon, the ability to just punch right through the armor and crit the structure under the armor.

If anyone remembers watching the CGL vs HBS BT game in which the HBS guys lost their beards, Jordan Wiessman's Atlas took a through armor crit, to the face, in a very early round.

Now, PGI obviously had to take this kind of thing into account. thus mechs in MWO have ridiculously small "head" hitboxes because of the FPS mechanic of being able to aim right where you want.

That right there is the biggest problem, and they found that out at the end of the closed beta, because people were able to point, click, and essentially vaporize entire sections of the mech they were aiming at. So PGI doubled armor/structure values over their TT values.

Okay, that's all well and good, but the pinpoint accuracy remains, and people just continue boating the best weapons they can slap onto their mechs, ensuring they do as much damage as possible. This is not well and good. Coupled with the overly generous heat mechanics, we have the current pinpoint alpha strike problem.

Torso twisting will only mitigate probably 25-50% of the damage being thrown at a mech, whether you're the one shooting or torso twisting.

If there was some element of chance that could cause your weapons to hit say either the arms or side torsos if you were aiming at the center torso, that would hardly remove the "L33T $K!LL$" from the game, in fact it would take more skill to try and compensate for it.

Granted such a system could be worked any number of ways. Tied to range, heat, number of weapons fired, which may actually tie back into the heat system. The closer you are to the target, the lower your heat, and firing the right number of weapons would still allow for the pinpoint damage we have now, but would cut down on the sniping, and make actual positioning matter.

As it is though, the maps themselves don't exactly help the problem either, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[Kyrie]

I must be getting old... I seem to recall seeing threads like this several times over the years. :-)

I really have nothing to add to this discussion, but to acknowledge the cancer behind the e-sports mentality that prevents a more reasonable adherence to the BT universe, a mechanic to prevent perfect pinpoint damage.

[L3mming2]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

That is because mercs are in CJF.

Compare CW and CGB that have no mercs to CJF and CSJ that have mercs.

Then compare those stats to the stats of FRR that frequently has many mercs as well.

FW is a mode for big units that love FW.

Faction Warfare is a terrible place to try to hang balance ideas, justification for changes, or anything else really in relation to equipment/mechs/weapons. Respawns, and lack of enthusiasm from the vast majority of the player base for that mode make FW an island that has a separate set of constraints that exacerbate the issues found in mechs in general.

Solid skilled units could take 4 waves of urbies into FW and win against skittles...it is what it is.

FFR's stats are no way near those of the cjf csj. and if all the strong merc units are on the clan side (even when the new reward system discourages that) dont you wonder why?

the FW stats may be far from perfect to juge ballance, but they are the only stats. comparing weaponstats wile ignoring a host of other variables (engines/ weight / 2 vs 3 critslot DHS/.... endo and ferro with 6 or 12 critslots..../ TC's ect...)
its like comparing appels and oranges, and grade them on how orange they look...

[S 0 L E N Y A]

2 major reasons. The minor reason is a bit of QQing by the player base. The main reason is money for the developer.

The old guard and lore nerds want games that take almost the entire duration of the match.
They also want it to result in maybe only 3 mechs being destroyed and giving major high fives to the guy that cracked 300 damage.

PGI wants longer time to kill (TTK) in order to not scare away new players. It is very frustrating for a noob to show up just to derp off and get melted in 3 seconds flat and then get pissed because there is no re-spawn. PGI needs a solid influx of new players (customers) to help show that the game is not only profitable but can sustain growth.

PGI is very resistant to introducing respawn (I think the community is as well) so the solution? Increase TTK.