321 replies to this topic

[Rampancy]

An 8v8 battle in TT would last maybe 6-8 turns once the firing started

So around 60-80 seconds

People romanticizing Battletech TTK are forgetting about the whole just because it takes 5 minutes to settle a combat turn doesn't mean it took more than 10 seconds of in-game time thing

TTK is fine in MWO. With good twisting and a STD engine you can tank a lot of damage, concentrated fire or no.

[Nightmare1]

Alan Davion, on 09 May 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Thing is though, the A-10 was specifically designed to be a tankers worst nightmare. That GAU-8/A 30mm Gatling Cannon fires depleted uranium shells specifically designed to literally chew through a tanks armor.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's another fighter plane in the world that has a weapon quite like that.

I think you miss the point - his point was that there are a lot of one-shot, one-kill weapons in the world now. Most tanks have sabot rounds that kill enemy tanks with one or two hits. Artillery is pretty much a one-shot now. Precision bombing is pretty much one-shot. Fifty-caliber rifles are basically one-shot. Etc. There are very few things in the military that cannot be one-shotted by some other thing in the military. That's the point.

In MWO, individual TTK is actually pretty long for 1v1s; longer, I would say, more most RL combat scenarios. I was looking through the duel videos I have from the last month, and most of the fights were averaging between 40 seconds and 1-minute. That's in a brawling situation too with little to no cover. I would say that 40 seconds of sustained brawling is a very good TTK.

Now, TTK in a group environment is much shorter, but it's not because Mechs or gear are overpowered. It's because the teamwork you face is overpowered. It's nearly impossible to nerf the group queue without destroying 1v1 or small combat (4v4). The best way for PGI to increase TTK, is to give real objectives. Introduce a game mode where damage dealt and kills doesn't matter. Make it a protect mission of some kind where the entire team is graded on whether or not it can defend its target. Instead of cloning CW, make it something mobile. PGI has already demonstrated its ability to create moving AI Mechs. Let there be some kind of moving Mech or truck that travels along a route with a few protective turrets along the path. Your company has to safeguard the package until it reaches the drop zone, and then protect it until the drop ship arrives. Let it be limited respawns to simulate waves of attackers or something. This isn't a perfect scenario; I'm just spitballing here. My point, is that mercilessly gunning down one foe at a time via focus-firing is the only thing this game is built to do right now, because there isn't anything else to do.

Even other games have focus firing. Star Trek Online will see your vessel destroyed in a single strafing run by three enemy ships. Ghost Recon: Phantoms will see an enemy team sweep through using a suppressive heat ray to keep you from returning fire, an Aegis Shield to prevent anyone unaffected by the heat ray from dealing damage to the enemy team, and then a Blackout system up close that disables your weapon and HUD. You literally cannot even fight back and get one-shotted as soon as the team sweeps into your zone.

By comparison, MWO's 30 second TTK for Assaults is pretty long. As I showed in that video, shielding while shooting and moving greatly extends your TTK. People who cannot master that have a short TTK. It's just that simple. TTK doesn't need fixing so much as players need to start thinking.

RampancyTW, on 09 May 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

An 8v8 battle in TT would last maybe 6-8 turns once the firing started

So around 60-80 seconds

People romanticizing Battletech TTK are forgetting about the whole just because it takes 5 minutes to settle a combat turn doesn't mean it took more than 10 seconds of in-game time thing

TTK is fine in MWO. With good twisting and a STD engine you can tank a lot of damage, concentrated fire or no.

Bingo!

[Lozruet Gravemind]

PhoenixFire55, on 08 May 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Sigh ... all the same clueless comments again.

1v1 fight is the only way to determine TTK. Because when you measure TTK in a situation of 1 mech vs 12 mechs firing line this is simply ret@rded. In TT, or MW3/4 it would be an instant death all the same when you have 12 mechs firing at 1. If you are dumb enough to run alone into several enemy mechs you deserve to die that instant. End of story.

Maps are way too small and that creates a great concentration of firepower in every battle. Even big maps like Alpine, new Forest Colony etc. do not see any engagements happening anywhere but the small areas near the middle. There is no incentive at all to split forces, no reasons to actually scout, capture and hold cap points etc., thus the murderball strategy is in nearly all cases a winning strategy. CW maps also have idiotic design with 2-3 chokepoints you have to move through, which again forces a great concentration of forces on both ends of those.

We've talked about instant automatic convergence that allows huge alphas into the same component a million times, but PGI will never stray away from it because they are 1) too dumb to implement a proper mechanics in the first place 2) their ****** servers won't be able to cope with additional load of calculating convergence.

In TT one gauss rifle or one CERPPC can instantly kill any mech via a headshot. I'm sure people bringing TT into this discussion will surely like that to be the case in MWO as well, eh?

Everyone agrees there should be slight adjustments. But I think the best it was summed up is that most of us dont want CoD with Mechs, which is what we currently have.

[Aresye]

Rampage, on 08 May 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

Hey, I am just trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt. You told me to watch the matches. I assume that was to prove a point you all were trying to make. I watched them and all it proved to me was that TTK is too low and now you are saying that is the point? I think you guys will say anything to try to dissuade anyone else from having an opinion other than yours.

The thing to consider when watching these matches is the strategies utilized.

You may see mechs dropping really quickly when the battle finally commences and argue TTK is too low, but take in mind there's a lot of strategy and preparation that takes place prior to the actual engagements themselves.

The competitive strategy for MWO is built around focus fire. The goal of team movement is to eventually set your team up in an advantageous position where you have more mechs to shoot them than they have mechs to shoot you.

Increase armor and/or limit firepower output and you don't increase TTK. All you're doing is making team positioning and focus fire that much more important, which increases the skill gap between competitive teams and the average player, which will actually make TTK seem LOWER than it is now.

For example, let's say right now it takes ~ 1min for a 1v1 engagement, compared to ~ 10s for a 8v1 competitive team focus fire. What happens when you add more armor and/or limit firepower? The 1v1 TTK increases to 2-3min, but the 8v1 focus fire still only takes 10s.

The reason deathballing and focus fire is so effective is a symptom of high TTK, not the cause of lower TTK. If TTK was low enough to the point you had a chance to win a 1v3 based off skill alone, you wouldn't see teams needing to deathball as often, and the competitive strategy wouldn't be built around it.

For example, deathballing is not as effective in CS:GO as it is in MWO, and in many cases it's actually counter-intuitive, because a single player with good aim and spray control can easily wipe out all 5 members of the opposing team.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 May 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

TTK IS fine when we are not firing alpha strikes all over the place. I sometimes run around the training grounds, firing my guns in a typically sensible fashion, chain firing PPCs, quad firing my MLs, chain and dual firing LPL, and TTK does in fact seem pretty decent.

Its just when we start banking our lasers together and alpha striking all the things, then we drop Atlas in 4 shots...

You realize that TTK in the testing grounds is exactly the same whether your alpha or chainfire, right? Your DPS is the same, unless you are deliberately not firing your weapons when they are ready to fire...

[Karl Streiger]

Speaking of 1vs3 and win - i have to point out that this was possible in cb.
One thing i will never forget was when i was attacked by 2 Hbks while riding my Atlas 100t vs100t and it was an equal fight - I did win hardly. I think the reason was the heat system and front loading dmg - those Hbks Js had what 15 SHS - my Atlas had 27 SHS - so heat capacity was 90 vs 57.
But this was CB today my Atlas is better armed and faster and has better Heatsinks but i would not be able to pull of the same fight with upgraded hunchbacks (maybe 12 Dhs vs max of 15-16DHs) reason while alpha damage is increased so is the front loading capacity and the rate of sustainend fire (106 vs ~ 58)

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Koniving, on 09 May 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

I have a fantastic example of this in an unrelated front. The new ghost in the shell f2p game that Nexon is pumping out is literally an updated Combat Arms minus a few of the broken issues. Without the I.P. it wouldn't have nearly the same attention as it still runs the same basic formula with a bit of new condiments sprinkled on.

exactly this

[JigglyMoobs]

Karl Streiger, on 09 May 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Speaking of 1vs3 and win - i have to point out that this was possible in cb.
One thing i will never forget was when i was attacked by 2 Hbks while riding my Atlas 100t vs100t and it was an equal fight - I did win hardly. I think the reason was the heat system and front loading dmg - those Hbks Js had what 15 SHS - my Atlas had 27 SHS - so heat capacity was 90 vs 57.
But this was CB today my Atlas is better armed and faster and has better Heatsinks but i would not be able to pull of the same fight with upgraded hunchbacks (maybe 12 Dhs vs max of 15-16DHs) reason while alpha damage is increased so is the front loading capacity and the rate of sustainend fire (106 vs ~ 58)

It depends on the situation:

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 09 May 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lozruet Gravemind, on 09 May 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

Everyone agrees there should be slight adjustments. But I think the best it was summed up is that most of us dont want CoD with Mechs, which is what we currently have.

TTK, alpha strikes, etc. How can it be modified to make it feel more like the BT/MW and not CoD?

Slow down weapon fire. Both sides can Elite mechs to get 5% cooldown timer on all weapons + 12% tier 5 cooldown module for specific weapons.

• Slow down weapons fire, primarily long range energy weapons first. Make them closer to Gauss Rifle timers. Adjust autocannons cooldown-increase velocity (short range weapons if necessary)
  
• Initially remove weapon quirks - remove/adjust weapon range/duration/etc for both techs then personalize them with weapon quirks.
  
• Adjust Heat Scale - revise the amount of overhead heatsinks add to base heatsink - bring it closer to a Solaris scale instead of base BT scale
  
• DHS - review/revise dissipation rate for DHS
  
• Heat Scale penalties besides 100% - min 2 intermediate thresholds 33%-66% that hits the mechs with a 20%-30% movement/agility penalty (current cXL loss ST movement penalty would be removed)
  
  • Additional penalty could be related to cooldown. Weapons hit with 5%-10% cooldown penalty at each threshold
    
  • Ammo explosions random crit if exceed 100% w/override.
• If Ghost heat mechanic is still necessary - revise it to micro-GH- sum of firing 2ML+4MG do not equal the heat generated if each single was fired individually seconds apart.
  
• Since many are against Bloom/CoF - make isXL engine behave similar to cXL w/loss of one side torso - reduce/remove structural quirks-esp Side torso.
  
• Weapon equipped arms - providing a means to raise arms from the scratching oneself position - especially for humanoid mechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

RampancyTW, on 09 May 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

An 8v8 battle in TT would last maybe 6-8 turns once the firing started

So around 60-80 seconds

People romanticizing Battletech TTK are forgetting about the whole just because it takes 5 minutes to settle a combat turn doesn't mean it took more than 10 seconds of in-game time thing

TTK is fine in MWO. With good twisting and a STD engine you can tank a lot of damage, concentrated fire or no.

the Catch is its done like that for Suspense and to Build Epic Stories, as most TT RPGs
(for Example)
TT=
Jem is surrounded by 5 Mechs and in 3 turns 30Seconds kills all of them,
Using Everything from LBX to PPCs, on her Marauder,
Lore=
Jem looked about in her Black and Gold WASP Marauder, the Punishment,
Seeing the 4 Enemy Mechs Around her she Knew this would Very well be her Last Fight,
Taking a Deep Breath, she Pushed her Marauder to its limits, Firing what she had at the First,
Aiming Carefully she Took her Shot, the Crushing Steel as his Cockpit Exploded, now 3-1,
Turing like a Hurricane to the next 2 Blasting both hard, striping them to Crit CT,
Twisting like a WhirlWind to Spread the Damage of their ML, her Arm taking most of their Fire,
Turning back to Finish them,
her Cockpit Rocks wildly as one shes been Ignoring Hits her Hard in the Back,
Turning to Face his AC20 but unable to Dodge it all, Taking off her Weakened Arm,
she twists as he hammers her Torso and other arm, Striping both of armor,
Jem looks Pissed and Ready to Tank when her Computer Reminds her of her Mortality,
Betty, Medium Laser Destroyed, Double Heat Sink Destroyed,
knowing this could be her Last Moments she Takes Aim and Alphas at his Cockpit,
the BattleField is Silent, a cool wind Blows between the Mechs,
Suddenly a sound Breaks the silence, Reactor Online,
Jem awakes to it like a Breath of Life, she Gasps as if this was holding her Breath Threw the Fight,
all in all the Battle would be over in half a Minute, but for Jem it was an Eternity,
and she will live for at least for another Day,
MWO=
Jem12 Solos 4 Mechs, in 30Seconds, Gets Called a Cheater and Gets Reported,

TTK should be Increased because this Isnt COD, this ISnt BT-TT, this is MechWarrior,

Aresye, on 09 May 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

The thing to consider when watching these matches is the strategies utilized.

You may see mechs dropping really quickly when the battle finally commences and argue TTK is too low, but take in mind there's a lot of strategy and preparation that takes place prior to the actual engagements themselves.

The competitive strategy for MWO is built around focus fire. The goal of team movement is to eventually set your team up in an advantageous position where you have more mechs to shoot them than they have mechs to shoot you.

Increase armor and/or limit firepower output and you don't increase TTK. All you're doing is making team positioning and focus fire that much more important, which increases the skill gap between competitive teams and the average player, which will actually make TTK seem LOWER than it is now.

For example, let's say right now it takes ~ 1min for a 1v1 engagement, compared to ~ 10s for a 8v1 competitive team focus fire. What happens when you add more armor and/or limit firepower? The 1v1 TTK increases to 2-3min, but the 8v1 focus fire still only takes 10s.

The reason deathballing and focus fire is so effective is a symptom of high TTK, not the cause of lower TTK. If TTK was low enough to the point you had a chance to win a 1v3 based off skill alone, you wouldn't see teams needing to deathball as often, and the competitive strategy wouldn't be built around it.

For example, deathballing is not as effective in CS:GO as it is in MWO, and in many cases it's actually counter-intuitive, because a single player with good aim and spray control can easily wipe out all 5 members of the opposing team.

if they Limit Alphas to a Max of 30-35 Damage, move than that you Get alot more Heat,
you will see TTK increase Acrose the board, no matter how much you Say it wont it will,

if TTK goes up for 1v1, then it will also go up for 1v4,1v8,and 1v12,
it may not be much because of the Focus Fire, but even 5 seconds in a 1v12 Fight is alot,

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

JigglyMoobs, on 09 May 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

It depends on the situation:

My fave.

Then again, google is funny

[Aresye]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

if TTK goes up for 1v1, then it will also go up for 1v4,1v8,and 1v12,
it may not be much because of the Focus Fire, but even 5 seconds in a 1v12 Fight is alot,

It's not going to be an extra 5s in a 1v12 because most groups will just simply switch to dakka and PPFLD based builds. TTK will remain the same, despite the overall firepower rating dropping much lower.

Remember back during the poptarting days? How long did you last against groups carrying 30pt alphas? Answer: It was actually lower TTK back then than it is now.

Hitscan weapons and laser durations, by their very nature, increase TTK. Take those out of the equation with a convoluted power draw mechanic and watch as shorter TTK, PPFLD metas rule the game again.

I'm sure that's what this community wants though. They tend to whine and whine until they get exactly what they ask for, and then whine more when they find out how terrible it is.

[LordKnightFandragon]

RampancyTW, on 09 May 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

An 8v8 battle in TT would last maybe 6-8 turns once the firing started

So around 60-80 seconds

People romanticizing Battletech TTK are forgetting about the whole just because it takes 5 minutes to settle a combat turn doesn't mean it took more than 10 seconds of in-game time thing

TTK is fine in MWO. With good twisting and a STD engine you can tank a lot of damage, concentrated fire or no.

Yeah, on a 1:1 dmg/armor ratio. This game has double armor plus change and the TTK is still just as fast as TT.

TT a Light mech's CT has like what? 10 armor+ internals. A 100t Assault, if you put nothing on the back, is max of what? 62-64? on the CT.

MWO, we have like 108 on an 85 tonner and like 58 for internals and yet we die just as fast as TT. Here were able to focus everything right into one spot....twist all you want, you can only twist away so much of that 60 point alpha......then its coming again in less then 3 seconds...

[Andi Nagasia]

Aresye, on 09 May 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

It's not going to be an extra 5s in a 1v12 because most groups will just simply switch to dakka and PPFLD based builds. TTK will remain the same, despite the overall firepower rating dropping much lower.

Remember back during the poptarting days? How long did you last against groups carrying 30pt alphas? Answer: It was actually lower TTK back then than it is now.

Hitscan weapons and laser durations, by their very nature, increase TTK. Take those out of the equation with a convoluted power draw mechanic and watch as shorter TTK, PPFLD metas rule the game again.

I'm sure that's what this community wants though. They tend to whine and whine until they get exactly what they ask for, and then whine more when they find out how terrible it is.

Assuming the 30Damage Max, before GhostHeat, then you wouldnt see much PPFLD, why?
lets assume that the PowerDraw Mechanic has a 30Damage Alpha Max,
Any Damage Over that Threshold gives you x Extra Heat,

so lets assume After this 30Damage for Every Point of Damage over you get more Heat,
in an Exponential way, so 5Damage over is +3Heat where as 20Damage over is +24Heat,
so an Alpha of 50Damage would gain +24Heat over what the Weapons just Put out,

this Type of System could be used to Limit Alphas so they are only Used in Dire Situations,
Making it feel more Like Lore, give us Longer TTK, allow for more Flexibility with Positioning,
as well as Remove the (Alpha) form Alpha Warrior Online,

[Karl Streiger]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

Assuming the 30Damage Max, before GhostHeat, then you wouldnt see much PPFLD, why?
lets assume that the PowerDraw Mechanic has a 30Damage Alpha Max,
Any Damage Over that Threshold gives you x Extra Heat,

so lets assume After this 30Damage for Every Point of Damage over you get more Heat,
in an Exponential way, so 5Damage over is +3Heat where as 20Damage over is +24Heat,
so an Alpha of 50Damage would gain +24Heat over what the Weapons just Put out,

this Type of System could be used to Limit Alphas so they are only Used in Dire Situations,
Making it feel more Like Lore, give us Longer TTK, allow for more Flexibility with Positioning,
as well as Remove the (Alpha) form Alpha Warrior Online,

Just another bandaid
It would not increase the TTK or at least only about 0.5sec?
Most of my builds are build around PPFLD and 30dmg.
Maybe the AS7-S would be an issue but even today i hardly use AC20 and SRM in the same volley. OK the 3 LPL build will cause some extra heat but it would not be enough.
The Black Knight would need to stagger his volleys but only for a split second.

I think the issue is not pure math but of concept.
Should MWO be balanced arround tonnage or Mechs?
So 50t = 50t or 1 Mechs = 1 Mech?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 09 May 2016 - 10:56 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

Assuming the 30Damage Max, before GhostHeat, then you wouldnt see much PPFLD, why?
lets assume that the PowerDraw Mechanic has a 30Damage Alpha Max,
Any Damage Over that Threshold gives you x Extra Heat,

so lets assume After this 30Damage for Every Point of Damage over you get more Heat,
in an Exponential way, so 5Damage over is +3Heat where as 20Damage over is +24Heat,
so an Alpha of 50Damage would gain +24Heat over what the Weapons just Put out,

this Type of System could be used to Limit Alphas so they are only Used in Dire Situations,
Making it feel more Like Lore, give us Longer TTK, allow for more Flexibility with Positioning,
as well as Remove the (Alpha) form Alpha Warrior Online,

Do you not see that the only result of this would be everyone switching back to AC5x2 + PPCx2 for 30 point PPFLD alphas?

Not all damage is created equal. a twin gauss alpha is much more dangerous than an SRM18 alpha, despite having lower flat damage rating.

[STEF_]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 May 2016 - 11:45 PM, said:

Do you not see that the only result of this would be everyone switching back to AC5x2 + PPCx2 for 30 point PPFLD alphas?

Not all damage is created equal. a twin gauss alpha is much more dangerous than an SRM18 alpha, despite having lower flat damage rating.

But also, I can imagine Russ giving the same answer he gave about "zero sum based psr"....

SO, maybe we can get "that 30dmg alpha thing" in june....

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 10 May 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Stefka Kerensky, on 10 May 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

SO, maybe we can get "that 30dmg alpha thing" in june....

and the Power Draw Ghost Heat thing - for everything including AC20+SRMs too - so no way to counter the sniping

[Aresye]

I for one, welcome the return of our Dragon Slayer overlords.

[Clownwarlord]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

I for one, welcome the return of our Dragon Slayer overlords.

Dragon Slayer overlordS? Where?!