194 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Clan mechs are faster and can carry more weapons and DPS. Inner Sphere are slower, a bit tougher especially with an ST engine for even slower speeds, much heavier weapons or much shorter range. The IS ER Large still gets a 1.25 recycle. I don't agree with the Clan streaming AC's. LBX-AC rounds are standard HEAP rounds.

Anyway, It's up to the player to utilize of the advantages of both Clan and Inner Sphere techs.

I will say that all the MWO mechs take damage too fast. Getting hit with 2xGauss in MWO is almost like getting hit with 4xGauss in MechWarrior 4, not quite, but really close.

[Y E O N N E]

For me it's about the same. I even prefer the Clan option, in some instances, i.e. JR7-IIC over Oxide and Shadow Cat over Blackjack. What turns me off of Clan 'Mechs the most is the audio. Even when I know, visually, that I've landed a full burn, it never feel like I've landed one. There's no punch. Even SRMs feel off.

[dario03]

I find the IS mechs with structure quirks to be insanely tanky. As in far more than the quirks would suggest. Something like +18 structure on a ct shouldn't be much anything to most mechs firepower but it feels like it is. Heck I almost wonder if its glitched and its adding 18is and 18armor and then another 9is.

[Sasuga]

IS can put Endo Steel and Ferros Fiber on their Mechs, while Clans are locked into whatever the Chasis has. Clans do have Streak SRMs greater then 2, but other then that I don't see much advantage to the clans at all. Their weapons do pack more punch, but from what I've seen, its at the cost of more heat. A clan Large Pulse does 13 for 10, making each point of damage cost .77 in heat. The IS Large Pulse packs less punch at 11 damage, but only costing 7 heat makes it .63 per damage point.

The clans have ER Lasers vs the IS 'regular' Lasers. The ER do have more range, but most maps and the current meta make the ER part of the ER Lasers really a moot point. The IS spends .8 (4/5) Heat per damage on a medium laser, while the clans pay .85 (6/7) Heat.

When you consider that many IS mechs have quirks that make their Heat Cost even cheaper for energy weapons, and add on a percentage of range to their Energy weapons (I'm not even going to address the ballistic stuff)... The IS Mechs not only match Clan Mechs, but really are getting a huge buff. I mean, a Rifleman-3C gets a -5% heat generation bonus for energy weapons. That means a Rifleman is paying .76 heat per point of damage.

When you're in a fight and spending .85 Heat per damage against an enemy who spends .76 Heat per damage, you either have to fire less which reduces your damage relative, or you will over heat sooner. Now, I know a lot of players think the Alpha Strike, kill the enemy and overheat strategy is the only valid one, but how many times have you over heated and died because you were a sitting duck?

If you choose to not overheat, then you can keep walking but you're still producing less damage then your opponent for the heat.

NOW, NOW, I am not saying all is doom and gloom on the clan side. There are many other factors I have not gone into, such as Clan double heat sinks only taking up two slots while IS double heat sinks take three, IS Mechs being cheaper to purchase so you can get them sooner to gain XP in and as you earn C-Bills upgrade them to be much, much better, and a whole bunch of other factors. I just wanted to point out one particular contrast.

Someone above mentioned clan mechs are faster. They come faster stock then IS mechs do, but with a bit of money you can put an XL Engine into your IS Mech and get the same speeds the Clans do.

[Lunatic NEo]

Also most Clan Mechs have horrible low Hardpoints, say Executioner, Gargoyle, Summoner, Timber (without the A ST which gets negative movement quirks!), Warhawk, Direwolf, Nova... the List is endless. Hardpoints are low and mostly in the arms so you cant effectly shield with em.

[davoodoo]

Clans omnimechs got ferrofibrous built in with only 6 slots, IIc also got endosteel by default and you can add ferrofibrous again for mere 6 slots...


As for low hardpoints, look at fatlas, awesome, zeus, victor, even mauler with these ballistic hardpoints at same height as exe...
From heavies look at black knight, one of more succesful heavies.

Only thing that clans lack are sniper mechs like rifleman and jager.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 May 2016 - 12:49 AM.

[dario03]

davoodoo, on 13 May 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Clans omnimechs got ferrofibrous built in with only 6 slots, IIc also got endosteel by default and you can add ferrofibrous again for mere 6 slots...


As for low hardpoints, look at fatlas, awesome, zeus, victor, even mauler with these ballistic hardpoints at same height as exe...
From heavies look at black knight, one of more succesful heavies.

Only thing that clans lack are sniper mechs like rifleman and jager.

7 slots each for clan Endo/Ferro and only some omnimechs get FF. Also not every IIc comes with Endo but you can add it. Omnis however can have endo and/or ferro or none, but you get what you get, no changing what they come with. Same with engines and any locked equipment and locked armor crit slots and/or locked structure crit slots if they came with endo/ferro. And if you want jump jets you have to equip the omnipods that have them and take whatever amount those pods have.

[Corrado]

IS mechs arent easymode. are usually better brawlers, while clans have WAY better range (CERML+TC1 does have almost the range of a IS large laser, for 1/5 the tonnage). and WAY higher alpha.

i do like to play em both, but usually in open maps, clan range, alpha and mobility is surely comfortable than running a say IS MPLs laserboat with usually 242meters range.

i prefer IS mechs in brawling maps tho. even if my 2xUAC20 warhawk is really funny.

Edited by Corrado, 13 May 2016 - 01:31 AM.

[Aresye]

Chados, on 12 May 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

Running with higher tier players in group queue tonight I couldn't make any of my usual IS stable work. RFL-3N, MAD-3R, ZEU-6S, even the usually invincible 4-uAC5 KGC-000B...all toast.

Then got out the lowly Summoner Prime. A lore type build substituting the LBX for a uAC10. 91kph. Lots of jump. Scored 500 damage, 9 assists, 3 KMDD, one solo kill.

Clan tech still rolls. I like the Reseen Marauder and Rifleman better but the SMN-P is a close second.

I've gotten a 2000+ damage, 6 kill (5 solo kill, 6 KMDD) game in a 2 CERPPC Summoner in solo queue, but that doesn't mean it's better than a Grasshopper.

[JigglyMoobs]

Navid A1, on 11 May 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

I think its not about each side having good performers as well as bad performers.

Basically, Oxides, Black knights, warhammers, Grasshoppers, and banshees are the kings of the battlefield slaughtering any and everything (considering equal pilots).

I've been on both sides... the current IS top performers eat clan mechs alive... the power gap is so vast, its not even funny!

This. Can i use a timberwolf laser vomit to good effect? Yes. But when im in a blk i feel like i'm in a rut if im averaging less than 3 kills per game.

[FaithBombCRNA]

Chados, on 12 May 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

Running with higher tier players in group queue tonight I couldn't make any of my usual IS stable work. RFL-3N, MAD-3R, ZEU-6S, even the usually invincible 4-uAC5 KGC-000B...all toast.

Then got out the lowly Summoner Prime. A lore type build substituting the LBX for a uAC10. 91kph. Lots of jump. Scored 500 damage, 9 assists, 3 KMDD, one solo kill.

Clan tech still rolls. I like the Reseen Marauder and Rifleman better but the SMN-P is a close second.

Summoner? You are trolling, right?

davoodoo, on 13 May 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Clans omnimechs got ferrofibrous built in with only 6 slots, IIc also got endosteel by default and you can add ferrofibrous again for mere 6 slots...


As for low hardpoints, look at fatlas, awesome, zeus, victor, even mauler with these ballistic hardpoints at same height as exe...
From heavies look at black knight, one of more succesful heavies.

Only thing that clans lack are sniper mechs like rifleman and jager.

Nothing is "built in" universally on omnimechs, except free CASE. They have or do not have Endo and Ferro based on stock lore loadout, and cannot add or delete either. Also the cost is 7 slots per, not 6.

[Raso]

Personally I find I do much better in my Timber Wolf than my IS Heavies and smaller IS assaults. That may have more to do with it's tonnage and hardpoints than weather it's a Clan or IS mech, though. I do pretty bad in my Hellbringer but I like to think I rock with my Jagermechs so I don't know what to tell you...

[Lunatic NEo]

davoodoo, on 13 May 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Clans omnimechs got ferrofibrous built in with only 6 slots, IIc also got endosteel by default and you can add ferrofibrous again for mere 6 slots...


As for low hardpoints, look at fatlas, awesome, zeus, victor, even mauler with these ballistic hardpoints at same height as exe...
From heavies look at black knight, one of more succesful heavies.

Only thing that clans lack are sniper mechs like rifleman and jager.

So all the from you mentioned IS mechs get massive Quirks. Clan Mechs? Negative ones if any.
Also you cant even put 5 AC's on a Executioner, you dont have the space nor the tonnage free for it. So have fun stacking your 2 AC2 at your ST in this massive 95t Mech.

Edited by Lunatic NEo, 13 May 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[Gyrok]

Corrado, on 13 May 2016 - 01:30 AM, said:

IS mechs arent easymode. are usually better brawlers, while clans have WAY better range (CERML+TC1 does have almost the range of a IS large laser, for 1/5 the tonnage). and WAY higher alpha.

i do like to play em both, but usually in open maps, clan range, alpha and mobility is surely comfortable than running a say IS MPLs laserboat with usually 242meters range.

i prefer IS mechs in brawling maps tho. even if my 2xUAC20 warhawk is really funny.

Actually...the max range on CERML with TC1 is 694m because the fall off is nerfed insanely.

Meanwhile, a LL on a mech with 10% range quirks has a max range of 980m.

Totally in the same ballpark there... /s

[Lunatic NEo]

But CERML are haveing 405m optimum. ISML only 270m, these 130m are the biggest advantage ever!

[Gyrok]

Lunatic NEo, on 13 May 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

But CERML are haveing 405m optimum. ISML only 270m, these 130m are the biggest advantage ever!

With quirks and modules, IS ML = 324m and 648m at max range.

[Mawai]

Dakota1000, on 09 May 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

I always put an XL on my hunchbacks though...
I really don't see a reason not to, if I lose my hunch my mech is nearly worthless anyway, I might as well die with it and make it count while I can by using my high firepower and speed to put out damage repeatedly where needed and reposition when I need to get away from danger.

I made the comparison with the Hellbringer because I remember one specifically on Tourmaline being nearly helpless against me while he was alone after I hunted him down in my Hunchback. Neither of us had allies nearby so it was just a 1v1. I had gone to him after he poked me in the back from behind our lines. I was able to easily cut off his useful side torso in 3 well placed quick hits while he was trying not to overheat after a couple shots that I spread over my mech. After that It was like shooting a legged Urbanmech.

If we are going for hypothetical comparisons I feel a Nova would be even easier to take out in many situations if I can peek and poke on it or stay out of range. A 12 small laser one would have a good chance if it got within range though, otherwise those low mount arms and massive side torsos will be its downfall.

The one experience you cite for hellbringer vs hunchback is interesting but it is actually entirely meaningless.

In any 1:1 match, the pilot capability plays as much if not more of a role than the mech. On top of that, mech builds can often be somewhat rock/paper/scissors in that a Hellbringer with a sniper build vs a hunchback with a brawler build is much more likely to have a problem in a brawl.

Brawls favour short duration or PPFLD weapons. Sniping can go either way if you have a steady hand. Even C-ERLL can do full damage to one section of a target at 700m if they happen to not be paying attention or are facing the other way.


As for your nova assessment ... every mech has a weakness ... all short range builds are vulnerable to long range engagements. However, most clan mechs usually have the advantage of being faster and more maneuverable than their IS counterparts ... though the nova is one of the slower ones.(250XL),

Finally, as for hunchbacks and XL ... personally I find the vulnerability to dying to any torso segment especially with the size of some of the hunches .. usually far outweighs the added speed ... at least when I am running it as a close support medium. If you are sniping or LRMing, I can see the reasoning ... but any build designed to brawl is just asking to die faster with an XL in my opinion (unless you can effectively use your team mates for cover). Also, the HBK SRM builds all tend to be symmetric with equal firepower on each side ... losing a hunch just halves your firepower. AC20 4G is an exception but you can't run an XL on it anyway.


----

Anyway, on your original topic, both IS and clans have some solid mechs. Clans still have an edge overall with range and maneuverability advantages but the longer average weapon duration, burst mode on ballistics, and higher heat do mean that clan mechs need more attention and steady aim to maximize their effectiveness. If someone does these things then clans end up more effective than IS, if they don't then they are likely less effective for an individual playstyle.

This is actually also the fundamental issue with trying to come up with mech "balance". It is almost impossible to take the pilot out of the balance equation. Everyone has individual play styles, some are better at aiming, some are better at implicit team work and see opportunities on the field to focus fire and take out opponents, some like long range sniping, others like frantic light mech brawling and everyone is better at some aspects of this than others. This means that you take two players and put them in the same mech and build and they will get different results. This makes getting quantitative measures of mech balance more challenging ... statistically, the only real way to do this would be to analyse real match data where the distribution of pilot capability could be averaged out. Look at mech and weapon statistics across the entire player base and queues and look for outliers in terms of which weapons and mechs do the most damage, have the most kills, assists, KMDD, uav use ... analysing that data might give an idea of where the actual mech balance is at the moment. Personal anecdotes and theory-crafting unfortunately don't get us very far.

[Zerberus]

Yes and no, it depends entirely on teh mech in question. Some like the BK, Wubshee, 3ppc bolt and oxide are stupidly effective, to the point that I often find myself wishing I could use them in CW. Or one of my favorite things to do bar none is to run around tearing apart Dire Wolves left and right in a D-DC or S Atlas.

But on the clan side there are also things like my Wubhawk or Vomitcrow that are just as stupidly effective. And even though I rarely play them (I´m a bit of a speedfreak), my dire wolves will basically annihilate anthing that makes the mistake of getting in front of them. Something like 2cUAC10 + 13 spl is a horrific alpha at close range, and with fire discipline not even that stupidly hot the rest of the time.......it just takes 2 weeks to get it somewhere where that firepower can be used effectively, and in quickplay that´s usually a death sentence because you´re soon left waaay far behind to fend off 2 arctic cheetahs and an oxide alone, and that severely hampers the general viability... In a team that actually cares whether or not the assaults make it to the fight, it´s a whole different ballgame.

Overall however I do notice that I tend to leave my clan mechs in the Dropship in quickplay matches... my IS mechs subjectively seem to have an edge 8-9 times out of 10

Unless I´m specifically farming c-bills, in which case I´ll probably be driving an invasion Maddog, Timber Wolf or Warhawk with mucho LRMs and Medium (pulse) lasers. Though that is more because of the combination of LRM spam (for mucho damage and assists = jackpot-mode) and c-bill bonus than anything else... 250k cbills /match w/o premium is just a nice thing to have when you need to grind out another XL engine for a new mech

Edited by Zerberus, 13 May 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[GreenHell]

The way I see it, you can't compare a lot of Clam weapons to their Pearl versions. C-LPL =/= IS-LPL. The C-LPL is actually closer to the IS-ERLL in function (not damage, just the way they feel). So when I build Clam mechs, I treat the C-ERML like I treat the IS-LL, the C-LPL like I treat the IS-ERLL, and the C-ERSL like the IS-ML. When you think about it that way it actually makes more sense. I'm also not afraid to 'pay for quirks' by spending tonnage on the big Targeting Computers. 500m ERML's? Yes please. 1800m/s ERPPC's? Yes please.

Edited by GreenHell, 13 May 2016 - 08:39 AM.

[Karamarka]

IS completely destroys Clans in FW.

Instant lasers with armor quirks is ridiculous.