194 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 14 May 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Also, LOL at listening to comp players opinions after Silkens video of garbage.

LOL @ listening to scrubs after hearing your jaded "the clan mechs touched my no-no place in 1990" responses...

kapusta11, on 14 May 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Killing brain dead TBR pilots doesn't count.

If you are going to go there...opinions from brain dead pilots do not count either.

Now, we can wipe all the "clan mechs are still strongerest!" BS out of this thread with that criteria alone.

[kapusta11]

I wasn't saying that Clan mechs are still OP so please don't put words in my mouth Gyrok, it's just you, clan fanboys, tend to exaggerate things, the difference is not that glaring. I play both sides and can agree that both clan laser max range nerf and IS laser duration quirks were unwarranted.

[JigglyMoobs]

kapusta11, on 14 May 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Killing brain dead TBR pilots doesn't count.

Look on smurfy and play around with the weapons lab. Even with the gman midrange build you can put up almost 9 DPS for almost a full minute, plus you've got a coolshot.

Remember that's 9 DPS pinpoint.

The BLK is very dangerous in a brawl. Last time I lost one in a fresh blk, I nearly collided with a fresh atlas and a fresh Nova when I turned the corner in the frozen city tunnel. There was no where to run, no room to maneuver, and the Atlas was still nearly dead when I died.

[Aresye]

Adamski, on 14 May 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

The ML / LPL Black Knight builds shouldn't be shooting at anything more than 500m away. You saying it is effective at 700m is giving it 50% more range than it really has.

Reread what I said. I said LPL+ML falls under "mid-range" engagement, not that LPL+ML is effective out to 700m.

300-700m was just an example of what could be determined "mid-range."

If I know I can avoid return fire, I have no problems shooting the IS LPL out to 700m. It may be a grand total of 4 damage between all 3 of them, but if I do 4 damage while the enemy does 0, that's still a winning trade.

Adamski, on 14 May 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Also, LOL at listening to comp players opinions after Silkens video of garbage.

You seem to have this wrong assumption that comp players actually care. Truth be told we really don't care if you follow our advice or not. In the end, we're the ones winning, and that's all we care about.

Are you playing in the upcoming tournament? Go ahead and bring nothing but Clan mechs. I'm sure you'll make it to the finals.

[Gyrok]

kapusta11, on 14 May 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

I wasn't saying that Clan mechs are still OP so please don't put words in my mouth Gyrok, it's just you, clan fanboys, tend to exaggerate things, the difference is not that glaring. I play both sides and can agree that both clan laser max range nerf and IS laser duration quirks were unwarranted.

Do not lump me into some group of people contained in a box in your head.

I realize you can be reasonable, but the majority of people in this thread on the "IS is NOT over powered" side of the line are incapable of it...cannot be talked with, reasoned with, or even discussed with...because there are always hyperbolic "this one time seven years ago, before MWO came out, you could say a TW killed my BK because I dropped my miniatures in a fire and the TW magically came out unscathed, but my $15 BK was melted like solder..." stories that essentially mean nothing...but justify their "Clamz OP" mantra.

Thus, my point still stands... Furthermore, to the majority of those guys...show us on the paper doll where the bad clan mech touched you.

Edited by Gyrok, 14 May 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Adamski, on 14 May 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

The ML / LPL Black Knight builds shouldn't be shooting at anything more than 500m away. You saying it is effective at 700m is giving it 50% more range than it really has.

Also, LOL at listening to comp players opinions after Silkens video of garbage.

My last kill in this game, the Gauss Jager in the island, would have happily sniped away for a bit longer if I hadn't reached out to 600m with my lpls.

https://youtu.be/55q6Fx1U6bA

In fact since shooting lpls take so little heat, my general philosophy is any time I can see you, and do any damage at all to something that's important, I'm going to reach out and poke it again and again at max possible rate as long as the trade is favorable.

In fact when you think about it, with 3 lpls and maxed range module and cool down, at 600 m I'm doing about 15 dmg instantaneous pinpoint every 3 seconds. That's almost as much damage output as unquirked dual Gauss!

Then you adding perfect convergence and no lead, at 600m the lpls are actually more dangerous than dual Gauss!

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 14 May 2016 - 02:19 PM.

[Lykaon]

Aresye, on 14 May 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

1. The main BK variant that comp players use DOES have laser duration quirks.
2. Most comp players are good enough at torso twisting to minimize and/or eliminate the XL disadvantage.
3. Most meta builds (IS and Clan) are asymmetric, so it doesn't really matter if you live or die if you lose that torso.
4. Comp players shoot for center torso, main weapon side, or legs. Specifically trying to go for an XL kill on their shield side is likely not going to work in the end, leaves them as a threat for most of the match, and is generally bad practice.
5. Comp players themselves admit that balance strongly favors IS at the current moment, with a few Clan mechs (ex: IIC's, Gargoyle, Ice Ferret) used in very niche situations.

Also, IS LPL+ML builds are what are called "mid-range" builds, and are used for engagements that are between 300-700m. They are most certainly effective beyond 300m, and if you actually read my previous post on page 7, you'd see that the BK does more damage/tick than the most popular laser vomit EBJ, even outside of its optimal range.

Lastly, in reference to you saying, "I will tell you what most of the comp builds do have," I'd like to hear about your comp experience.

BL6 KNT does NOT have laser duration quirks it has energy range 10% cooldown 10% and cooling efficency 10% and by far the more common Black Knight is the 6 with 350 XL 5 medium lasers and 3 large pulse.

If most comp players are good enough to twist to mitigate the XL engine downsides and let's assume both clan and I.S. pilots have skilled comp players who will win the "twist" battle?the pilot that needs to shield both sides due to being destroyed if either gets destroyed or the clan pilot who has two side torsos to spread damage across because it takes the destruction of both sides to kill the mech? In this scenario the 75 ton Black Knight has one torso to give and it has +12 structure quirk. 12 points better side torso durability traded for the ability to require BOTH side torsos to be destroyed to kill the engine.

Most meta builds are asymmetric...More of an advantage for the clanners actually. You see if you have a build that has most of your firepower on the right side the left can be sacrificed to protect the damage output of the clan mech. The Inner Sphere mech can not afford to lose EITHER side and survive. And if the I.S. mech isn't using an XL it's likely slower,less agile and/or under gunned compared to it's clan counterpart. If those advantages do not tip the scales in your favor then the opposition pilot just totally out classes you.Bottom line is sword and board clan XL is an effective strategy to prolong mech survival with an I.S. XL it's suicide.

If a "comp" player opts to not shoot at a Black Knight's side torso then I guess I'm wrong. Also if torso twisting doesn't somehow expose side torsos to damage then I am wrong. If all players always never get shot in the back before they can react I guess I'm wrong. If somehow Inner Sphere XLs are not half as durable as a clan XL I guess I'm wrong.

Sure a Black Knight using large pulse lasers is very dangerous I never argued otherwise I am however finding it odd that all of the "numbers" never seem to account for the down sides that are very exploitable when yo run up against these mechs.

Inner Sphere large pulse laser optimal range 365m Inner Sphere Medium laser optimal range is 270m. If a weapon is fired outside of it's optimal range it's damage output is decreased yet it's heat burden is not . The black knight also has fairly mid possition hardpoints making it a poor long range poker shooter. Essentially I would be quite pleased if my opposition Black Knight pilot opted to stay beyond his optimal range suffering from reduced damage output all the while building the same heat while my lower profile Ebon Jag is dishing 100% damage with 100% heat to damage efficency all the while not having to poke more than half it's profile over a hill to do it.

Can a Black Knight large pulse laser build do damage from outside it's optimal range? yes. Is it efficent or a good idea? no.

"Lastly"... Honestly who needs "comp experience" if all of the builds are cookie cutter metamechs builds. Anyone with internet can research what is favored "comp" build of any mech. I can read and I do have internet. That asside what is the most commonly seen Blacknight build? is it not a BL6 KNT with 350XL 5 medium lasers and 3 large pulse? Because if it's not my info may be out of date I havn't had time to play in 2 days so...

Also has the practice of front loading armor gone out the window or do players still strip rear armor off to stack the front? Because if it's still done the back side torso of an average metamechs cookie cutter Black Knight will be around 50 points (32 structure + 12 structure quirk + 6 - 8 armor) this is two hits from 6x clan ER small or Sml Pulse lasers (both common builds for Cheetahs) the cycle rate of the clan small pulse is 2.25 seconds meaning that if you line up one shot you have 2.25 seconds to land your next and kill that Black Knight. (for best results use two back stabbers using differing angles of attack.If all goes well "POP" dead in 2 seconds)

[JigglyMoobs]

According to metamechs bl7 has the duration quirk

http://metamechs.com...s/black-knight/

As I was noting in my last post, a blk at 600m is putting out more devestating damage than dual Gauss using the lpl alone. If you don't think that's significant you should also shrug off a dual Gauss Jager as not worth bothering with.

All if your other theorizing are basically wrong. These mechs are built on experience from fighting people who are good.

In theory you can get behind it and core it out. In practice a comp player will notice you are there, turn around and murder you before you get in a second, or even first alpha.

In theory you can shoot its St. In practice you are in a race to kill it before it kills you. Youbare both utilizing terrain, its arms are getting in the way, its sts are small targets that are easy to hide, its moving around like a fast medium, and you are likely losing.

The key failure in your thinking is "if all goes well".

All does not go well. The whole purpose of your opponent is to make sure nothing goes well for you.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 14 May 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

JigglyMoobs, on 14 May 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

The trouble with this argument is that everybody is trying to exploit their strength and some mechs right now have much more to exploit. The edge is not insurmountable but it's there.

When you are in comp, there are all sorts of weight limits, weapons limits and additional conditions. Eg, then Ms invitational required 6 clan and 6 is mechs in at least some of the matches. You also have specific strats or specific players who can maximally exploit some different strategy, but you can't deny the preeminance of certain is mechs at the moment.

Technically, and for better or worse, there are weight limits in solo and group queues, too. They just have various overrides that get activated under certain conditions. I can't say I've really seen a team spamming Black Knights, or really any of one 'Mech, on solo. It happens often in group, but that's because small groups get more tonnage to play with per player and, if you are in a 12-man vs. a six-man, a four-man, and a duo, that's a big deficit.

Quote

And if you go into solo queue? The difference is night and day.

Yea, the Kodiak is gonna change things assaults, but that's "fixing" is advantage in lights, mediums and heavies by adding a ridiculous clan advantage in assaults.

Going back to the original thread subject, for solo queue at least, the meta is mechs are easier to play for sure. And now we're gonna get an easy mode clan assault.

That sorta fixes the situation if you feel the problem is insufficient clan "representation", but doesn't if you think the problem is that there shouldn't be significantly OP mechs to the extent we are getting now.

I think you are compartmentalizing it too much. Let's say we have some game, and that it is accepted as being perfectly balanced, giving all players an equal probability at success, right? Inside of that game, it does not make one lick of a difference how the balance was achieved. It could be one player versus 15 players, and that one player is so over-powered that the only way to win against him is for everybody on one side to work together. Sound familiar? That's sort of the premise of Juggernaut mode in Halo.

What matters is whether or not your implementation supports your premise. Right now, MWO has a far larger problem with the maps and game modes than it does with the 'Mechs and equipment. The maps encourage mid-range builds through abundance of cover and concealment and poor sight-lines while the game modes compel 100% commitment to combat to win. To top it off, the difficulty of coordinating with team mates means otherwise strong niches aren't useful. This is why some 'Mechs have "more strength" to exploit and why lasers are "the meta" of solo. Flexibility is paramount when playing independently. Either your 'Mech itself needs to be flexible, or your skills need to be practiced enough that your niche 'Mech can be used flexibly.

[Aresye]

Lykaon, on 14 May 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

"Lastly"... Honestly who needs "comp experience" if all of the builds are cookie cutter metamechs builds. Anyone with internet can research what is favored "comp" build of any mech. I can read and I do have internet. That asside what is the most commonly seen Blacknight build? is it not a BL6 KNT with 350XL 5 medium lasers and 3 large pulse? Because if it's not my info may be out of date I havn't had time to play in 2 days so...

I just went through all of our Season 7 MRBC recordings for the in-game screenshots. Here are the totals for the different types of Black Knights that were used:

BL-7-KNT-L: 22
BL-6-KNT: 5

[Walsung]

looking back at the last few pages of argument since when did the black knight become the inner sphere

[Gyrok]

Walsung, on 14 May 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

looking back at the last few pages of argument since when did the black knight become the inner sphere

Since the only IS heavies you ever see are named:

Black Knight
Grasshopper
Warhammer
Marauder

None of those are light on quirks, and of those...all of them have at least one variant with significant weapon quirks to lasers, and substantial structure quirks paired with agility.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Walsung, on 14 May 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

looking back at the last few pages of argument since when did the black knight become the inner sphere

Its the IS poster boy when it comes to powerful mechs.

The whole point of the topic is to compare the strongest of IS mechs to the strongest of Clan mechs while disregarding obviously bad builds and mechs. Essentially in a competitive scene which faction has the advantage.

[Jon Gotham]

kapusta11, on 14 May 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

I wasn't saying that Clan mechs are still OP so please don't put words in my mouth Gyrok, it's just you, clan fanboys, tend to exaggerate things, the difference is not that glaring. I play both sides and can agree that both clan laser max range nerf and IS laser duration quirks were unwarranted.

Thing is mate, there are a LOT of Is fanboys who are STILL chanting "clanz op" constantly when it is clearly not the case. I'm watchin various comp level games lately and I'm seeing more and more IS chassis. Why take a 60pt alpha oveer a 45pt alpha when that 60pt alpha can only be repeated twice and the 45pt alpha can be repeated 5 times at 3/4 of the duration ....?
And factor in the 45pt alpha chassis is harder to kill and will have extended contact time?
No brainer really. I'd take the shorter duration, lower heat-tougher mech each time.

Wouldn't you?

[Beartech]

IS is easy mode with their x4 internals...

[Gyrok]

Lykaon, on 14 May 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

BL6 KNT does NOT have laser duration quirks it has energy range 10% cooldown 10% and cooling efficency 10% and by far the more common Black Knight is the 6 with 350 XL 5 medium lasers and 3 large pulse.

If most comp players are good enough to twist to mitigate the XL engine downsides and let's assume both clan and I.S. pilots have skilled comp players who will win the "twist" battle?the pilot that needs to shield both sides due to being destroyed if either gets destroyed or the clan pilot who has two side torsos to spread damage across because it takes the destruction of both sides to kill the mech? In this scenario the 75 ton Black Knight has one torso to give and it has +12 structure quirk. 12 points better side torso durability traded for the ability to require BOTH side torsos to be destroyed to kill the engine.

Most meta builds are asymmetric...More of an advantage for the clanners actually. You see if you have a build that has most of your firepower on the right side the left can be sacrificed to protect the damage output of the clan mech. The Inner Sphere mech can not afford to lose EITHER side and survive. And if the I.S. mech isn't using an XL it's likely slower,less agile and/or under gunned compared to it's clan counterpart. If those advantages do not tip the scales in your favor then the opposition pilot just totally out classes you.Bottom line is sword and board clan XL is an effective strategy to prolong mech survival with an I.S. XL it's suicide.

If a "comp" player opts to not shoot at a Black Knight's side torso then I guess I'm wrong. Also if torso twisting doesn't somehow expose side torsos to damage then I am wrong. If all players always never get shot in the back before they can react I guess I'm wrong. If somehow Inner Sphere XLs are not half as durable as a clan XL I guess I'm wrong.

Sure a Black Knight using large pulse lasers is very dangerous I never argued otherwise I am however finding it odd that all of the "numbers" never seem to account for the down sides that are very exploitable when yo run up against these mechs.

Inner Sphere large pulse laser optimal range 365m Inner Sphere Medium laser optimal range is 270m. If a weapon is fired outside of it's optimal range it's damage output is decreased yet it's heat burden is not . The black knight also has fairly mid possition hardpoints making it a poor long range poker shooter. Essentially I would be quite pleased if my opposition Black Knight pilot opted to stay beyond his optimal range suffering from reduced damage output all the while building the same heat while my lower profile Ebon Jag is dishing 100% damage with 100% heat to damage efficency all the while not having to poke more than half it's profile over a hill to do it.

Can a Black Knight large pulse laser build do damage from outside it's optimal range? yes. Is it efficent or a good idea? no.

"Lastly"... Honestly who needs "comp experience" if all of the builds are cookie cutter metamechs builds. Anyone with internet can research what is favored "comp" build of any mech. I can read and I do have internet. That asside what is the most commonly seen Blacknight build? is it not a BL6 KNT with 350XL 5 medium lasers and 3 large pulse? Because if it's not my info may be out of date I havn't had time to play in 2 days so...

Also has the practice of front loading armor gone out the window or do players still strip rear armor off to stack the front? Because if it's still done the back side torso of an average metamechs cookie cutter Black Knight will be around 50 points (32 structure + 12 structure quirk + 6 - 8 armor) this is two hits from 6x clan ER small or Sml Pulse lasers (both common builds for Cheetahs) the cycle rate of the clan small pulse is 2.25 seconds meaning that if you line up one shot you have 2.25 seconds to land your next and kill that Black Knight. (for best results use two back stabbers using differing angles of attack.If all goes well "POP" dead in 2 seconds)

Good thing comp players use the BL-KNT-7-L then, huh? You know...the one with 15% laser duration quirks....? That one...?

Nobody uses the 6 except in the scrub queue.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 14 May 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

Since the only IS heavies you ever see are named:

Black Knight
Grasshopper
Warhammer
Marauder

None of those are light on quirks, and of those...all of them have at least one variant with significant weapon quirks to lasers, and substantial structure quirks paired with agility.

Everybody plays Marauders wrong and it makes me sad. Even my own team members...

[Daycrist Bloodfang]

The biggest difference is that IS mechs are by far tougher, and have a much higher heat cap so they can stick in a fight far longer. Clan Mechs can do far more damage in one go but don't benefit from the structure quirks and often can't maintain their damage output for long as they need to cool down

[Y E O N N E]

Daycrist Bloodfang, on 22 May 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

The biggest difference is that IS mechs are by far tougher, and have a much higher heat cap so they can stick in a fight far longer. Clan Mechs can do far more damage in one go but don't benefit from the structure quirks and often can't maintain their damage output for long as they need to cool down

Come now, let's not keep pushing that DHS myth. When you compare builds, it's usually 18-20 DHS vs. 22-26 cDHS. That translates to 62-65 vs. 63.2-67.6 cap before skills are applied.

The real truth is that longer range energy weapons in this game are hotter. Clan weapons are longer ranged. The heat is a soft limiter meant to prevent them from being useful in all scenarios. PGI is still trying to pin down the equitable trade-offs that need to be made among range and damage and heat for the amount of resources each faction's equipment demands. Right now I think they're favoring IS gear a bit, but it's closer than ever and there is a place for both Clans and IS up top and that's fantastic.

[Daycrist Bloodfang]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 May 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

Come now, let's not keep pushing that DHS myth. When you compare builds, it's usually 18-20 DHS vs. 22-26 cDHS. That translates to 62-65 vs. 63.2-67.6 cap before skills are applied.

The real truth is that longer range energy weapons in this game are hotter. Clan weapons are longer ranged. The heat is a soft limiter meant to prevent them from being useful in all scenarios. PGI is still trying to pin down the equitable trade-offs that need to be made among range and damage and heat for the amount of resources each faction's equipment demands. Right now I think they're favoring IS gear a bit, but it's closer than ever and there is a place for both Clans and IS up top and that's fantastic.

Actually Clan DHS do not have near the capacity as IS DHS

IS DHS CAP 1.5 with .14 dissapation

Clan DHS CAP 1.1 with .15 dissapation

Clan weapons heat wise are not much hotter than their IS varients......hell some IS varients are actually far better than their Clan counterparts i.e. Large Pulse Lasers

IS LPL 11 Dmg at .67 Duration with a 3.25 cooldown

Clan LPL 13 Dmg at 1.12 duration (about twice the burn time) with a 3.25 cooldown the only benefit is the almost 2 times optimal range over IS varient

Of course this doesn't factor in all the IS mech quirks for Shorter energy duration, shorter energy cooldown, less energy heat, energy range boosts..... the list goes on.

Edited by Daycrist Bloodfang, 22 May 2016 - 06:32 PM.