24 replies to this topic

[_____]

This is my first guide for newer players in the game which addresses the frequently asked topic of "What mech to buy first". I lay out my selection criteria, explain why the selection fits this criteria well, and show you how to play the mech with (very) detailed explanations of in-game decisions.



Since this is pretty long, I've added timestamps to the video description so you can skip to particular sections. Click here to watch the video on YouTube's page instead of the embedded version. You'll see the timestamps there.

[Elendil]

Well, I think you leap to the Hellbringer pretty quickly...
It would help if you explained a LOT more about things to look for when buying a mech, to help people make an informed decision of their own.

For example:

• I would start by explaining a little about roles. Let people know that lighter, faster mechs are easier to play, as long as you play smart and don't try to brawl head-to-head with heavier mechs. And let them know that heavier, slower mechs are NOT invincible, and require more coordination with their teammates to stay alive.
  
• (In my experience, lighter mechs are more forgiving of mistakes in positioning and such, and you're less likely to get cut off from your group or left behind to fend for yourself.)
  
• Then I'd explain a little about hardpoints and mech shape: why the position of the weapons and cockpit on the body matter for aiming, what advantages and disadvantages energy, ballistic, and missile weapons have, and the fact that some mechs have giant targets built into them (center torso on the TW, right arm on the Centurion, the hunch on the Hunchback, etc). And cover the idea of omni-mechs here too, maybe XL engines as well.
  
• And last I'd cover ECM and modules. Let them know how powerful ECM is and that most mechs don't get it. And just quickly mention modules and how valuable GXP is, so they don't waste it.
  
• Then you could explain why you think the Hellbringer is a good choice, in relation to the topics you covered, show them how to build a mech, and go from there.

And I don't necessarily agree with your choice of the Hellbringer, for a couple reasons:

• The fact that it's versatile is fine, but they'll need to end up buying 3 variants anyway, which will give them that versatility. So I don't think you need to choose an omni-mech, it's kind of redundant.
  
• It's very expensive, which means it'll be hard to afford those other 2 variants down the road.
  
• The weapons are located way below the cockpit, which will be extremely frustrating to inexperienced players (since they will keep shooting hillsides when their reticule says they have a clear shot)
  
• It's pretty big, which makes them a big target.
  
• It's got that XL engine, which means it'll die more easily.

I just think those are all things that should be given much more consideration (especially the location of the weapons in relation to the cockpit, that's a BIG one for new players).
Once you remove the 'need' for versatility within a single mech, Inner Sphere mechs get more attractive. Plus they are generally much cheaper than Clan mechs.

[Captain Alt F4]

@ Elendil - just a note on the Hellbringer XL engine - its a clan mech which means loss of one side of the XL is not fatal, so your statement is not true.

My thoughts/two cbills/utter nonsense

I'm not sure if a clan mech is the best first choice because of the extra survivability of the XL engines. How can that be bad you say? Well new players don't learn to shield and damage roll as well as if they had learned in a IS XL mech. Take the Jaegermech - standard configuration is ballistic/energy with and XL. You learn very fast that face planting just about anything is bad for you. Now there is an argument that if new players die too easy they give up, which might be true, but ultimately if they can stick through a difficult learning curve they will be better pilots in the end.

Finally I don't think cost should be much consideration because when you take into account the cost of upgrades required for IS mechs the costs become fairly even... though I still think IS wins slightly on cost.

[_____]

Thanks for the responses.

@Elendil

I feel like a lot of what you mentioned is actually covered in the video. Not sure if you just missed it.

In my opinion light mechs are one of the most difficult weight classes to pilot properly. They're often short range and being so short range makes you even more vulnerable to positioning errors. Long range lights typically don't have the firepower to contribute much to a game. Overall, I think lights are tough and I wouldn't recommend that as a first choice.

Furthermore you may have seen that one of my criteria is that the mech choice can serve as a staple for an FP drop deck, and lights can't do that.

When you buy 3 Hellbringers you can put 1 build on each of them which is what I do for my clan FP deck. The omnipod system allows you to experiment with builds better with your first mech, but when you have 3, I'd leave the 3 builds pretty set.

Clan mechs are actually not that expensive if you consider how much it costs to upgrade IS mechs. When you buy a Clan mech it's already upgraded except for Artemis.

Hellbringer's hardpoints, except for the arm, are pretty high mounted and one of the few clan mechs with high-ish mounts. They're not Battlemaster level but they're in good positions. Builds that use the left arm just require left corner pokes, which isn't too difficult to pull off.

HBR profile isn't big really. It's one of the more appropriately sized heavies.

@Captain

I'm not making the Clan XL a crutch. If you lose an ST your effectiveness in game goes way down (20% loss in heat dissipation, speed, and losing all those external DHS). It's really no longer such a major advantage as it once was given how well protected IS side torsos are. In a Clan mech you don't really want to lose an ST at all if you can help it, and in the gameplay demo I mention the importance of shielding.

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 11 May 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[mailin]

I am very leery of recommending any mech with ECM as a first mech. While it is incredibly useful to have ECM on a mech, it is another system for pilots to master. Furthermore, when the enemy detects an ECM mech, those mechs tend to get focused before many other mechs, simply because everyone knows how valuable ECM is.

As far as FP goes, it is the opinion of most here that FP is for more experienced pilots. As such, more experienced pilots should know exactly which mechs they want, how they want to equip their drop decks, and have enough c-bills to make this happen.

For these reasons, many on the forums generally recommend Hunchbacks or Centurions for first mechs. They are cheap to build, have a variety of load outs between the variants, and do not generally appear to be many players' number one priority target.

Just my .02

[_____]

Fair points mailin, although as an experienced pilot I still have triple Hellbringers in one of my FP drop decks. The 65 tonners are just very weight efficient. Other than the SCrow, Timber and Ebon Jag, there are few other ideal choices for clan anyway given tonnage limits. So I think it's not a bad thing to get started on one of the best clan FP mechs early on, especially if your mech bays are limited.

I would say the ECM helps way more than it hurts. Otherwise you'd see ECM capable mechs not taking ECM a lot more often, which isn't the case. Personally I prioritize mechs that can do more damage to me and my team. If it was a TBR vs HBR that I see I'm going after the Timber. I suppose some players will consider an ECM to be the bigger threat, but that's not my opinion though.

[_____]

Regarding Hunchbacks and Centurions, my problem with those two choices is that they don't fit 4 out of my 5 selection criteria.

They're not that newbie friendly due to most of the builds being super close range and slow. I'm not sure if you can argue they're not prioritized as much because the closer you are to the enemy, the easier it is for the enemy to be aware of you and shoot it. At the mid-range, there are at least a few mechs on the other team that can't engage you and it also gives you time to reposition if you mess up.

Second they don't have much build variety. Cents are mostly short range brawlers with the AL capable of doing mid-range. HBKs have more build variety, but that's between the different chassis (4P, 4G, 4SP, 4J). You'd have to commit to buying several chassis and upgrading them to experiment with different playstyles, whereas on Clan mechs you just swap out some omnipods and weapons for less than 1 million CBills, and you can try a completely different playstyle.

Third if a player does decide to go into FP, and suppose they committed to HBKs and CN9s, those can't fill the tonnage for an decent FP drop deck. They minimally have to go out and buy or earn more mechbays to level up a set of assaults (unless you intend to drop an unelited or trial assault into FP which is a terrible idea). Or they drop the assault last as a throw-away mech, which is also not good. With the 65 tonners, you elite them and drop those as the first 3 mechs. If you get to the last mech, it could be a trial or whatever and that'll be fine because if you get to the last mech, it's the least influential mech in your deck and that's not a game changer or anything if it doesn't end up contributing much.

Fourth they don't have longevity. Once a player gets good with heat management, ridge/corner peeks, and aiming (essentially once he gets somewhat decent), these chassis are outperformed by half of other mechs in MWO. And their current "goodness" is also heavily reliant on quirks, like the 4SP's structure quirks, which can change depending on PGI's mood.

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 11 May 2016 - 10:35 PM.

[Requiemking]

I know that this mech doesn't fit your dropdeck criteria, but what about the Mist Lynx? It is relatively frail, but then again so are many IS Lights, but it isn't too hard to learn, can fill a wide variety of roles, and is cheap for a clan mech. It's also easy to change roles, as all you have to do is swap out it's arms and thus you have a new set of hardpoints and, as such, a new role.

[Tesunie]

I shall admit I didn't watch the video, however, I can comment on why I personally recommend the Hunchback as a new player mech. (Among some others.)

BlackhawkSC, on 11 May 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

They're not that newbie friendly due to most of the builds being super close range and slow. I'm not sure if you can argue they're not prioritized as much because the closer you are to the enemy, the easier it is for the enemy to be aware of you and shoot it. At the mid-range, there are at least a few mechs on the other team that can't engage you and it also gives you time to reposition if you mess up.

With customization, explain to me how any mech can be restricted to "super close range and slow"? Depending upon the weapons you put on, and the engine you put into it, they can be decently fast and relatively long range. I've seen Hunchback 4Ps with a couple (ER)LLs and/or some medium lasers in for some long range punch. 4J uses LRMs, which can be mid to long range (as well as can use SRMs in a pinch). So can the 4SP. Any of the ballistic Hunchbacks can take an AC10, 5 or a Gauss rifle.

I don't exactly know why you seem to think they are limited to slow and close range. That doesn't sound like much of an argument against the Hunchback from my standing.

BlackhawkSC, on 11 May 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

HBKs have more build variety, but that's between the different chassis (4P, 4G, 4SP, 4J). You'd have to commit to buying several chassis and upgrading them to experiment with different playstyles, whereas on Clan mechs you just swap out some omnipods and weapons for less than 1 million CBills, and you can try a completely different playstyle.

Omitting responses to the Centurion, as I'm referring to the Hunchback.

That build variety needing 3 mech chassis, with each Hunchback being able to be completely different, is exactly one of the big reasons why I recommend the Hunchback to new players. If they haven't figured out what their play style is yet after earning their cadet bonus playing trials, than the Hunchback can easily still introduce them to different play styles. You have to own 3 of them for skill progression anyway.

Hunchbacks are also relatively inexpensive to get in terms of C-bills, as well as cheap to upgrade. They tend not to need expensive XL engines, which provide some extra durability while they learn. If they get some advice or work on their build long/hard enough, they can even get some decent speed, armor and weapons on it.

The Hunchback also has a wonderful rotation, being able to actually shoot it's arm weapons backwards. This helps with several learning mistakes that can happen. However, even if you arm lock, it still doesn't overly hurt you. It's got a good size to it, and reasonable quirks for defense and offense.

Why count on a single Omni-mech, when you need 3 mechs for elite skill progression anyway? The Hunchback fulfills this objective, and can do so with either similar builds for ballistic loadouts, or you can have three different styles of Hunchbacks.

A flavor of Hunchback for any playstyle.

BlackhawkSC, on 11 May 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

Third if a player does decide to go into FP, and suppose they committed to HBKs and CN9s, those can't fill the tonnage for an decent FP drop deck. They minimally have to go out and buy or earn more mechbays to level up a set of assaults (unless you intend to drop an unelited or trial assault into FP which is a terrible idea). Or they drop the assault last as a throw-away mech, which is also not good. With the 65 tonners, you elite them and drop those as the first 3 mechs. If you get to the last mech, it could be a trial or whatever and that'll be fine because if you get to the last mech, it's the least influential mech in your deck and that's not a game changer or anything if it doesn't end up contributing much.

A new player shouldn't be going into FW/CW/FP. I wouldn't recommend it to them besides a quick grind to get some free mechbays if they needed them. So, my suggestion would be to just simply stay in Quickplay sections of the game till they have a more firm standing in the game, enough C-bills to buy a new mech a bit more focused on their discovered play style preference and/or they really need that 5/6/7/X more mechbays (you start with 4 for free). (Unless some kind of event is currently running, unto which I'd just tell them to use Trial mechs if they had to for any event prizes they think they can earn.)

I'll just say... I've often ran my FP deck as just four 50 ton Crabs. I've done very well with it too. Better than if I bring in any assaults or heavies even. Being slightly under tonnaged isn't as big of a deal as you might think. Of course, as you said, they could also always pick up a heavier trial mech for FP. Of course, as I said... I wouldn't recommend FP at all for a new player. Not until you start getting modules into your mech probably.

BlackhawkSC, on 11 May 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

Fourth they don't have longevity. Once a player gets good with heat management, ridge/corner peeks, and aiming (essentially once he gets somewhat decent), these chassis are outperformed by half of other mechs in MWO. And their current "goodness" is also heavily reliant on quirks, like the 4SP's structure quirks, which can change depending on PGI's mood.

On this one... I'll comment that my first mech I bought was the Hunchback 4SP and 4J. I still own and use each to this day. They are some of my better mechs in my opinion. I've also been using them before quirks was even a thing. So, I still can't see this as being that big of an influence to a new player.

Even if they end up not liking the Hunchback when they are done, they would still work great as a starter/learner mech. They could even sell them off at a later time if they really just don't like them that much. By then, they (hopefully) would have found their playstyle and earned more than enough C-bills to buy a couple of mechs (if not already have). Even then, I've rarely heard of a Hunchback owner who said they didn't like how the mech ran. (Even if they aren't the most meta mech around.)


In the end, I just can't understand your perspective on why the Hunchback (I wasn't very good with a Centurion, so I can't speak much there) is not a good starter mech. Many of the things you call out on the Hunchback for reason as to why it's a poor starter mech are the exact reasons I feel they are one of the best starter mechs.

Only other mech I'd recommend more highly as a starter mech are Crabs. Their only downside is the lack of divergence in playstyle. They are all energy hardpoints only. However, even that can provide enough difference between the chassis to make each one worth getting (in my opinion). The Crab also excels at redirecting damage well (has good hitboxes), has reasonably high weapon mounts, can move fast with a decent punch and cooling. Though it's best with a STD engine, it can also handle an XL engine when someone becomes more advanced in the game.


As a counter point to recommending any clan mech: (Is a part of a conversation, so context may be a little lost.)

Tesunie, on 09 May 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

I think what should probably be said about clan mechs to new players is "They are not new player friendly".

Why do I say this? You get more out of a clan mech the better you can aim and keep your damage on target. Clan mechs reward higher skill as an average with the manner that their weapons happen to work.

Guess why there are so many IS new player mech suggestions?

What I mean is:
- Clan lasers typically have longer burn duration than IS lasers. This leads to more incidents of friendly fire, and more splash damage.
- Clan ACs shoot in bursts. This leads to more splash damage.
- Due to the longer damage times of clan weapons, you need to keep your cross hairs on target more. A new player will be harder pressed to do so.
- CERPPCs run hotter. Hotter means harder for a new player to use, as they are still learning the heat scale.
- More expensive mechs.
- More expensive gear.
- Many clan mechs are higher priority targets over many IS counterparts. (People are more likely to shoot at the Timberwold and/or Stormcrow over a Hunchback, Crab or sometimes even an Atlas.)

There are good points to clan tech too:
- Omni lets a single chassis do more. More flexibility means more play style options to learn.
- Larger SSRM racks. Combine with CAP to disable any stray ECM...
- CLRMs don't have a hard "minimum range". Makes them a decent "universal" weapons.
- All upgrades are basically already built in. No extra C-bills to pay after purchase.
- Cheaper to try out alternative play styles. Just change a few omnipods, rather than buying a whole new mech...

Basically, Clan mechs and technology (as an average) rewards more skillful play.

[_____]

Requiemking, on 11 May 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:

I know that this mech doesn't fit your dropdeck criteria, but what about the Mist Lynx? It is relatively frail, but then again so are many IS Lights, but it isn't too hard to learn, can fill a wide variety of roles, and is cheap for a clan mech. It's also easy to change roles, as all you have to do is swap out it's arms and thus you have a new set of hardpoints and, as such, a new role.

Pros: MLX has some build variety, cheap
Cons: no longevity (ACH is better at pretty much anything the MLX can do), not easy to play (mostly limited to short range weapons if it wants to contribute anything of worth to a match), and as you mentioned, doesn't fit as a staple FP mech.

One thing I think some people may be misunderstanding is that I'm not recommending that new players go to FP immediately. Basically your first mech leads to your first 3 mechs (because of eliting). If you can buy and then master 3 HBRs, you're probably already a hundred hours into the game, at which you can try out FP. Honestly the biggest mistakes new players make in going into FP is bringing bad FP mechs and unelited mechs, which won't be the case here.

[mailin]

I think operating under the assumption that everyone wants to play FP is wrong. I certainly don't enjoy it. Also, I don't have that kind of time a lot of the time. Instead of thinking new players want to play FP eventually, work under the assumption that new players are new and need to learn how to drive mechs and what weapons work best for them, which is why we tend to recommend Hunchies and Cents first before any clan mechs.

[_____]

mailin, on 12 May 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

I think operating under the assumption that everyone wants to play FP is wrong. I certainly don't enjoy it. Also, I don't have that kind of time a lot of the time. Instead of thinking new players want to play FP eventually, work under the assumption that new players are new and need to learn how to drive mechs and what weapons work best for them, which is why we tend to recommend Hunchies and Cents first before any clan mechs.

I'm confused. When did I say everyone wants to play FP? It's 1 out of 5 selection criteria I used, and I think most players will at least want to try it. Mostly the selection was made because it was a good QP mech. I would highly recommend the game mode eventually though, since it's pretty much what PGI worked on for the last 2 years.

Anyways, I'm not here to debate other peoples recommendations too much. My earlier post is to help evaluate HBKs and CN9s based on my selection criteria and how I apply those criteria to those two chassis. I wanted to address HBKs and Cents specifically because it's a popular suggestion that I disagree with. But regardless, I think new players should look at all suggestions and make their own choices to see which evaluation method makes most sense to them.

[Requiemking]

Other popular suggestions you might want to cover are Arctic Cheetah and Jenner IIC. they often pop up when people are suggesting clan mechs to Newbs.

[Orville Righteous]

Great video, as always.

I watched the video last night so you may have covered it. What does the Hellbringer have over the Ebon Jag (other than ECM). I went Ebon Jag instead of Hellbringer which is why I ask. I do have a Hellbringer, but I like the lower profile and high mounts of the Jag. What I don't like about the Jag is the jutting nose/CT magnet.

If you get Hellbringers for FP, what would get get for a scout mech on the Clan side? Stormcrow is the obvious choice but do you concur? If they lower the weight limit to 50, then what? Is it worth getting the Arctic Cheetah?

If you want to do IS FP as well, what mech would you choose then? You mentioned the TDR-5SS getting nerfed, but I still think the Thunderbolt is a decent choice. What would you choose for the scout portion, based on your IS recommendation?

[Veridio]

I feel that a Blakcjack BJ-1X variant is really good for new players. It's really flexible to do whatever you need it to. Short, medium, long range. Powerful bruiser close range or a quick skirmisher at medium range. It even has extra structure durability.

[_____]

Orville Righteous, on 12 May 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

Great video, as always.

I watched the video last night so you may have covered it. What does the Hellbringer have over the Ebon Jag (other than ECM). I went Ebon Jag instead of Hellbringer which is why I ask. I do have a Hellbringer, but I like the lower profile and high mounts of the Jag. What I don't like about the Jag is the jutting nose/CT magnet.

If you get Hellbringers for FP, what would get get for a scout mech on the Clan side? Stormcrow is the obvious choice but do you concur? If they lower the weight limit to 50, then what? Is it worth getting the Arctic Cheetah?

If you want to do IS FP as well, what mech would you choose then? You mentioned the TDR-5SS getting nerfed, but I still think the Thunderbolt is a decent choice. What would you choose for the scout portion, based on your IS recommendation?

That's a really awesome question! At one point I was going to do an EBJ vs HBR comparison video. You already laid out one of the main points is that HBR has better hitboxes and so it's easier to spread damage. The EBJ CT is huge and much more glass canon-y. So it's very much a trading off a balanced chassis (HBR) vs a highly offensively oriented chassis (EBJ). The high mounts on the EBJ are unfortunately so high mounted that the enemy sees you before you see them, and they increase the overall size of your mech, so it's a double-edged sword.

For scouting, I've seen the 5 SPL IFR do some serious work. SPL Nova and Jenner IIC with SRM4s is another choice.

IS FP: I like the Warhammers right now. Lots of variety in builds and fits the tonnage limits pretty well. Thunderbolts are not bad also but lack a well quirked dakka variant for hot maps. For WHMs there are better chassis for any given particular role, but if you were to choose 3 of a single mech, the WHMs are pretty sweet. For scouting: Griffin 2N/3M, SHD-2D2, HBK-4SP, brawler Cent-A/AH would be my choice.

^^ -- Above answers not geared towards new players

[Stormbringer13]

I'm pretty sure I'll be grabbing the Hunchback as my first purchased mechs, grabbing a few variants to level up and elite.

Question: I've never seen mention of the Hunchback IICs. at quick glance to someone remembering 25 year old Technical Readouts from FASA.

[Tesunie]

Stormbringer13, on 13 May 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure I'll be grabbing the Hunchback as my first purchased mechs, grabbing a few variants to level up and elite.

Question: I've never seen mention of the Hunchback IICs. at quick glance to someone remembering 25 year old Technical Readouts from FASA.

Hunchback IICs are in the game now. As far as their effectiveness... I can't say. I don't own any. I've been told they can be squishy, but I've also been told they are rather nice. I can't say from any personal experience though. Sorry.

As for the Hunchback, I think it's a solid choice for a starter mech. It was my starter mech. I even made the mistake of selling it once, and then ended up rebuying it later again. (Unless you have to, I'd suggest you don't do that...) Any idea which three you are thinking about getting for your skill progression? (Just wondering.)

[Stormbringer13]

IN regard to the HBK IICs, I know they are in the game now. I was wondering about their effectiveness. they seem to me superior to the old model , at least on paper.

as for what variants, I haven't decided yet. I'm playing around with some Trial mechs trying to determine what style I like best.
I may spend Sunday Morning with a pot of coffee working on that. I got almost 20 million C-Bills, so I definitely can play around with builds and learn that system too.

[Tesunie]

Stormbringer13, on 13 May 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

as for what variants, I haven't decided yet. I'm playing around with some Trial mechs trying to determine what style I like best.
I may spend Sunday Morning with a pot of coffee working on that. I got almost 20 million C-Bills, so I definitely can play around with builds and learn that system too.

My personal suggestion? The 4P (that's the energy boat, right?) would probably be best to start with. It may be all energy, but it can pack some punch, and laser weaponry is considered really good currently in game.

4SP and 4J are good missile platforms. 4SP is better for SRMs, and the 4J is better for LRM10s. However, that isn't to say you can't use SRMs on the 4J and LRMs on the 4SP.

Then you have old fashion ballistic Hunchies. I don't seem to get along very well with ACs on average, but you might have better luck than I. (I can use ACs, but for some reason massed AC fire can cause hit reg issues for me...) I've been told (if you can figure out a Gauss rifle) that Gauss is decent on Hunchbacks due to that high shoulder mounted ballistic slot.

In the end, it would be up to you. It probably is best to continue to play Trial mechs till you feel you found a playstyle you enjoy. More than likely, the Hunchback can make some proxy of it, depending upon what it is of course.