60 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

Wintersdark, on 13 May 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

That's exactly what we've been saying from the start, more or less.

Agility only to HGN, and structure (only) to the ON1. Note that twist&turn is way more valuable than structure.

Structure is more valuable than twist & turn. This is why the Victor is still poop even with all its mobility quirks, while the Zeus and even the Awesome with its structure quirks are more valuable.

ON1-IIC can have the same mobility bonuses as the ON1, no structure bonuses.

WarZ, on 13 May 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

Because IS quirks are so damn strong the clans actually need a couple to compete now. They could always y'know ... back off some of the stupid IS quirks, but why do that ? Lets convolute the whole f'ing system, and make it really really messy. Quirks everywhere, for everything, way over the top, to make them on par with other over the top ones, to compete with ... you get the idea. F'ed up.

They nerf quirks every patch dude. Just last patch they nerfed the Vindicator FFS along with the Catapult Jester.

Just because you still die to META mech builds doesn't mean they are still IMBA.

[Depressing-Fire]

Maybe dodge the structure quirks for the HBK and maybe some ballistic cool down and anti jam quarks in the good old suicide sled, and agreed with suggested quarks I've seen for the Highlander and Onion two see.

[Lord0fHats]

Adamski, on 13 May 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

cSRM6a has a tighter spread and less tonnage than iSRM6,

No they don't. Clan SRMs with Artemis have about the same spread as IS SRMs without, at a .5 tons saving. This would be a balance issue, but most IS mechs with missile boating capability get spread/Cool down quirks. Comparatively, the only Clan mechs with missle quirks are... subpar.

Quote

Clans receive almost identical damage per ton of ammo as the IS (only outlier is non streak SRM ammo where IS gets 7.5% more damage per ton of ammo)

The damage per ton is about the same, but the damage application plays out differently. The most obvious is Clan autocannons, which fire multiple shots rather than one. If you hit every shot its the same, but the reality is that you'll get a much wider damage spread, and leading targets is much more difficult. It's much less efficient damage, which is why you don't see too many Clan ballistic builds running around outside Dire Wolves and some Ebon Jags.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 13 May 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[WarZ]

Adamski, on 13 May 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

Just because you still die to META mech builds doesn't mean they are still IMBA.

Just because you are absolutely reliant on them to be able to be even a modest contributor to a team, doesnt mean they arent over powered and almost silly at this point.

[Adamski]

WarZ, on 13 May 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

Just because you are absolutely reliant on them to be able to be even a modest contributor to a team, doesnt mean they arent over powered and almost silly at this point.

I don't own a single Black Knight, Grasshopper, or Stalker. I don't depend on quirks to perform.

I have carried teams in my goddamned St Ives Vindicator last month until Paul nerfed it.

[Adamski]

Lord0fHats, on 13 May 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

No they don't. Clan SRMs with Artemis have about the same spread as IS SRMs without, at a .5 tons saving. This would be a balance issue, but most IS mechs with missile boating capability get spread/Cool down quirks. Comparatively, the only Clan mechs with missle quirks are... subpar.



The damage per ton is about the same, but the damage application plays out differently. The most obvious is Clan autocannons, which fire multiple shots rather than one. If you hit every shot its the same, but the reality is that you'll get a much wider damage spread, and leading targets is much more difficult. It's much less efficient damage, which is why you don't see too many Clan ballistic builds running around outside Dire Wolves and some Ebon Jags.

I feel like I should create a bookmark page for common Clanner problems that are due to misinformation:
Artemis improves grouping by 34% ( ) http://mwo.gamepedia.../Artemis_IV_FCS
Here is a link to the most recent changes for SRM missile groupings: http://mwomercs.com/...38-01-dec-2015/

Clan SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.9 to 5.0m.
Clan SRM/4 spread reduced from 5.4 to 4.0m
IS SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.7 to 4.5m
IS SRM/4 spread reduced from 5.2 to 3.5m

Clan SRM/6 spread with Artemis is 3.3m which is LESS than 4.5m (27% tighter grouping), while still weighing a half ton less (FFS its tighter than IS SRM4)
Clan SRM/4 spread with Artemis is 2.31 which is LESS than 3.5 (33% tighter grouping)

Edited by Adamski, 13 May 2016 - 10:36 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Then I stand corrected (it's actually pretty comparable even when I did the math using the 24% typo instead of the actual 34% )

[Swagpanda89]

Jenners - maybe some minor srm quirks to stay comp in comparison to the Oxide
Hunchie - uac jam chance
Orion - structure
Highlander - speed/agility

[Chimera_]

Swagpanda89, on 13 May 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

Jenners - maybe some minor srm quirks to stay comp in comparison to the Oxide
Hunchie - uac jam chance
Orion - structure
Highlander - speed/agility

Personally I don't think the HBK and Jenner should get quirks, they're both pretty good as-is. If anything, maybe give the HBK some very minor side torso structure, but otherwise...

I agree for the Onion and Highlander though.

[Lord0fHats]

I don't think the Jenner IIC needs to stay comp in comparison to the Oxide. The game doesn't need two OP missile spam Jenners. One is bad enough, and the other is pushing it as is.

UAC jam chance on Huncie would probably be passable. Ballistic Hunchies aren't the scary ones.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 13 May 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[Appogee]

HGN IIC is awful ... the Mech I most regret ever buying. Would need fantastic quirks to make it playable.

[Chimera_]

Appogee, on 13 May 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

HGN IIC is awful ... the Mech I most regret ever buying. Would need fantastic quirks to make it playable.

It makes me sad since Highlanders are, due to their concept and looks, some of my favorite chassis. (IS) Highlanders were meta for a time, but that was mostly while I was taking a large hiatus from the game

Edited by Chimera11, 13 May 2016 - 11:01 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Highlanders where my favourite mech for a long time. When they were released in MWO, I was all over them.

Sadly, since they were deemed OP and nerfed into the dirt, they've been broken husks of what they once where - and that is due, more than anything else, to the ruin PGI wrought upon jump jets. The whole damn point of the Highlander is jumping. That's it's thing. Without that, it's just a crappy cut rate Altas.

I'm still bitter about this.

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintersdark, on 13 May 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

Highlanders where my favourite mech for a long time. When they were released in MWO, I was all over them.

Sadly, since they were deemed OP and nerfed into the dirt, they've been broken husks of what they once where - and that is due, more than anything else, to the ruin PGI wrought upon jump jets. The whole damn point of the Highlander is jumping. That's it's thing. Without that, it's just a crappy cut rate Altas.

I'm still bitter about this.

Its the tonnage, imo - if HGN JJs were one ton each, then mounting a full spread for mobility would be ok - they just dont supply a good enough benefit for the two tons per jet. Im ok with them not being good poptarts, because assault poptarts is probably not something we want to see. But the Executioner DOES jump around ok with its JJs, and if they cost 4 tons they would be worth it. Just not worth 8...

And HGNs were my first chassis in this game, i mourn them too.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 14 May 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 13 May 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Still, the same speeds for both.

Quote

The anchor turn skill is irrelevant, as its a constant on every mech (and minor anyways).

It is a quirk too, Turn Speed. Atlas has it, hell, the Kodiak has it at 25%.
With multipliers, even small amounts add up.
Remember those 50%/2x RoF quirks?
The small 17% addition from FF and the module brought that up to 67/3x RoF

Of course, 5% is much smaller than 17%.

Quote

No. Engine size is irrelevant, max speed is what matters. A 400 rated 100t assault is clumsy, while a 250 rated light is agile. The difference is important though because engine size change has very little impact on speed at high tonnages. A 400 Kodiak will torso twist slower than a 300 Atlas.

Well, engine size is relative to max speed, but different for every weight class. True that land speed is what matters in the end...before quirks

An Assault with a 400 (69 Kph) is just as agile as an 85 tonner with a 340XL, or a 50 tonner with a 200 engine, or a 35 tonner with a 140 engine.


Agility=Land Speed...not sure if that includes turn speed...probably.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 14 May 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

It is a quirk too, Turn Speed. Atlas has it, hell, the Kodiak has it at 25%.
With multipliers, even small amounts add up.
Remember those 50%/2x RoF quirks?
The small 17% addition from FF and the module brought that up to 67/3x RoF

Of course, 5% is much smaller than 17%.

Of course. Turn speed, and twist speed is critical, and that was the crux of my post.

Quote

Well, engine size is relative to max speed, but different for every weight class. True that land speed is what matters in the end...before quirks

An Assault with a 400 (69 Kph) is just as agile as an 85 tonner with a 340XL, or a 50 tonner with a 200 engine, or a 35 tonner with a 140 engine.

... That's what I said, McGral.

Quote

Agility=Land Speed...not sure if that includes turn speed...probably.

Again, McGral, this is all what I said in my post.

About engine rating: I was emphasizing that engine rating isn't a big factor on it's own at large mech sizes, because the engine rating:speed difference ratio is poor, so that it's better to think about max speed rather than rating for all the reasons you said above.


Sorry, but it's kind of irritating to have your post picked apart and "corrected" by someone saying exactly what you said =/

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 14 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Of course. Turn speed, and twist speed is critical, and that was the crux of my post.


... That's what I said, McGral.


Again, McGral, this is all what I said in my post.

About engine rating: I was emphasizing that engine rating isn't a big factor on it's own at large mech sizes, because the engine rating:speed difference ratio is poor, so that it's better to think about max speed rather than rating for all the reasons you said above.


Sorry, but it's kind of irritating to have your post picked apart and "corrected" by someone saying exactly what you said =/

Not entirely right, a 400 Kodiak twists faster than a 300 Atlas, because (some) have the same quirks, but 80 is a greater base than 70

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 14 May 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Not entirely right, a 400 Kodiak twists faster than a 300 Atlas, because (some) have the same quirks, but 80 is a greater base than 70

An unquirked 400 Kodiak twists slower than a 300 Atlas.

McGral, I know how this works. I posted the math, the turn angles, in the Kodiak thread - from before we knew the quirks where happening, when we were discussing how the 400 KDK will twist slower than a 300 AS7.

The quirked 400's twist and turn faster due to the quirks...

That's my whole point.

See, this thread? We're discussing the HGN's. Note how the IS HGN has twist and turn quirks, and the HGN IIC does not.

We're arguing the HGN IIC should have twist and turn quirks, and that's what my posts above where discussing, as those twist and turn quirks have a substantial impact on your ability to soak damage.

Edited by Wintersdark, 14 May 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

I'm all for tweaking, I'd just like to see the rescaling finished first.

Edited by Xocoyol Zaraoul, 14 May 2016 - 09:09 AM.

[J0anna]

Adamski, on 13 May 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

3 DPS on a mech that has less than 10 DPS is HUGE.
That bonus armor & structure your wanking off over only accounts for a 15% increase in total HP.

I don't know how you are building your HGN vs HGN-IIC but if you give them similar range & burst profiles, the IIC should have room for 50% more heatsinks which will give it a LARGER heat capacity, and MUCH MUCH LARGER cooling profile.

Remember, an IS DHS takes up 3x slots, while the C DHS only takes 2x slots. The IS Endo takes up 14 slots, the C Endo only takes 7. The IS XL engine takes up 14 slots, while the C XL engine only takes up 10.

My HGN-733C build has 18.8 DPS, my HGN-IIC has 22.1 DPS Maximum, I don't know where you're getting less than 10 DPS from....Range on my builds is very similar, in fact at 270m DPS difference is 0.9 and at 300m, difference is 0.6 DPS.