82 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

So when the Cataphract was introduced, the Warhammer was still an "Unseen", and there had been no reason to believe it would be a "seen" any time soon. The Warhammer is also thee most iconic mech in the BT franchise so there was a huge impetus to get something warhammer-like to the players. I believe that the Cataphract was introduced with its current geometry (big and broad with low hanging arms) as a synthesis of the mech as depicted in TT and as an effort to give a the players that desired "warhammer-like" appearance. Now that we actually have the Warhammer (and also the Marauder), this is a problem.

The WH and MAD have not only made the Cataphract redundant, but with their superior hardpoint locations, numbers and combinations, they have rendered the Phract wholly obsolete. I really want to play my phracts, but they are just utterly out-classed.

Yes, yes, there are other mechs that have suffered a similar fate. But I think in all the other cases the issue is merely duplicative builds or something that could be solved with a good quirk pass, but here the issue is that comparatively speaking, playing a Phract is an actual handicap to you and your team. This should be addressed.

I don't think a quirk pass would be sufficient here. I think an entire rescale AND re-imaging of the Phract is necessary. Thoughts?

[HammerMaster]

I loved the cataphract 1x. With founders and heros out the wazoo it still was my go to rig with gauss and mlas. I would avg 600 damage and regularly break 800. You know what killed phracts for me? Gauss charge. Collecting dust since then. But thats different thread. Its still a viable piece. What would have ressurected phracts? The 0x should have had the high mount ballistic. End of story.

Edited by HammerMaster, 14 May 2016 - 04:44 AM.

[invernomuto]

HammerMaster, on 14 May 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

I loved the cataphract 1x. With founders and heros out the wazoo it still was my go to rig with gauss and mlas. I would avg 600 damage and regularly break 800. You know what killed phracts for me? Gauss charge. Collecting dust since then. But thats different thread. Its still a viable piece. What would have ressurected phracts? The 0x should have had the high mount ballistic. End of story.

The 0xp with XL 300, 3xLLs and a gauss (or other ballistic) is not obsolete at all IMHO.
EDIT: I'd give them a better structure quirks, right now I agree that I prefer a Warhammer over a Cataphract if I have to choose. The only advantage is the 0XP that has ECM

Edited by invernomuto, 14 May 2016 - 05:21 AM.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Handicap? I wouldn't jump to that so quickly. I was in a game earlier on Canyon Network, someone in my lance was piloting a -4X. I even commented that I hadn't seen one in ages. He was using quad AC5s. You might think that especially on Canyon Network, he'd just get chewed up and left in the dust like 70 tonnes of fodder. By the end of the game, he'd cranked out over 600 damage before he went down. They still have their place, and the more any given team helps each other, very few mechs will ever really be obsolete regardless of unpopularity

[ice trey]

I think that while quirks and meta changes will always leave one or two mechs more or less popular, I don't think that the Cataphract is so gimped that it's unlovable. I still see players running Phracts, and if there's a deficit of them on the field, I'd say it were because most players are trying to keep their heads above water leveling up the four unseen mechs most recently. The reason I don't play my Dragons anymore is not because they're bad, but because they're already mastered. Any "Gains" I make on it can't be put to use unless I spend MC to turn it into GXP. My new heavies, meanwhile, mostly have yet to make it out of the "Basic" tier.

There are, on the other hand, many mechs that are far more deserving and just outright don't show up on the field. The Vindicator, the Commando, the spider and the victor... these are all mechs that are completely shunned in their current state. Does or doesn't the phract deserve quirks or rescaling? Maybe. Do I think it should be first in line? Goddamn hell no. It's still full well playable, and players still do.

[Bud Crue]

To those who have posted above. I am not saying the Cataphract can't be played and can't be played well, but when compared to the Warhammer you are gimping yourself if you bring a Phract over a Hammer.

Any build you can do with a Phract you can do with a Warhammer or Marauder, with the later two mechs having significantly better hard point locations and height as well as better hitboxes, and in most cases quirks too. The only thing that a Phract brings to the table that a Hammer or Mad doesn't is the potential of ECM in the 0xp, and ECM just isn't that big of a deal anymore.

In other words: if you have build "A" and you put it on a Warhammer and on a Phract, the Warhammer is always a better choice. 4 AC-5s as mentioned above...try it on a BW vs a 4X. I will be shocked if you still prefer the Phract. 3LL and a Gauss? Put that on a Mad (or even a Hammer) same thing.

Please note, I am not taking this position because I hate Phracts. To the contrary, I have 6 of them. I just don't see that they have a function anymore when compared to the Hammer or Mad and I can't see how they could be made useful again (comparatively speaking) without a re-design.

[Bud Crue]

ice trey, on 14 May 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

There are, on the other hand, many mechs that are far more deserving and just outright don't show up on the field. The Vindicator, the Commando, the spider and the victor... these are all mechs that are completely shunned in their current state. Does or doesn't the phract deserve quirks or rescaling? Maybe. Do I think it should be first in line? Goddamn hell no. It's still full well playable, and players still do.

Like I said in my OP, yes there are other mechs that are also obsolete or redundant (or just bad) but I think most can be fixed or at least helped by the re-scale (e.g. Vindicator, Victor and Dragon). Others just need some quirk love (e.g. again the Victor imho). My point is ONLY that when compared to a Warhammer or Marauder, the Cataphract is outclassed in every way, and that this can't be fixed merely by quirks or re-scale. Yes it can still be played, but if one has a choice between the Phract and the Hammer or Mad with similar builds there is zero reason to play the Phract.

Edit: BTW, what's wrong with the Spider? I love those things. Most of the guys in my unit love Commandos too. Both are tiny and incredibly agile. Fun and lethal.

Edited by Bud Crue, 14 May 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

I don't think a quirk pass would be sufficient here. I think an entire rescale AND re-imaging of the Phract is necessary. Thoughts?

I do not see how a re-imaging would work out. Part of the issue is the low slung hardpoints in the arms that can not be raised up, plus the need for hard point inflation. The other is the fragility of the isXL engine which is used both weight savings and speed. Changing isXL to working in a similar manner as cXL would help. Another issue is the current heat scale setup benefits laser vomit.

And in the cataphract's heyday, ballistics had 3x the range instead of the current 2x, and higher velocities. Those were cut when PGI was trying to deal with "poptarting" meta. Boating ballistics also means more face time.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 May 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 May 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Part of it is the low slung hardpoints plus the need for hard point inflation. The other is the fragility of the isXL engine which is used to for weight savings as well as speed. The current heat scale setup benefits laser vomit.

And in the cataphract's heyday, ballistics had 3x the range instead of the current 2x and higher velocities. Those were cut when PGI was trying to deal with "poptarting" meta. Boating ballistics also means more face time.

Yes. I think the hardpoint location is the main issue (more so even than their relatively low number, hitboxes or quirks). This is why I think re-scale is not going to help. It needs a redesign wherein at least some of the hardpoints are raised. Short of that I don't see how the mech can be considered "as good" as any mech near it in weight.

Edited by Bud Crue, 14 May 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[Alienized]

relocate the arms to jaeger/rifleman height \o/

jokes aside, as a known self-gimper using victors, highlanders and all the other terribads they still work well.
they are just harder to use and need more map control etc pp. in teams that work well together they can dish out as good as meta mechs.

Edited by Alienized, 14 May 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Interesting...which one has better hardpoints locations,and where?Only Marauder have better positioned 1st and 2nd ballistic in RT,but Phracts (except 4X,which has its own advantages) have two high energy hardpoints in side torsoes instead.Moreover,Phracts are more XL friendly (though still not as Catapults),and can run loadouts impossible for Warhammer or Marauder,like:
- 3xUAC5 + XL engine on ILya.Black Widow can setup that,but is forced to use ~220 STD engine,which causes it to be slow.Maraudes can take 3xAC5 at best.
- 3xLBX10/AC10 on Ilya.Theoretically Black Widow could fit 3xLBX,but without XL engine it'd left not much tonnage for ammo and other stuff.3xAC10 is unsuitable entirely.Marauders can't take more than 2xLBX10,for AC10 even two are too much for them.
- 2xPPC and hill peeking.Due to location of ST torsos hardpoints Phracts are better at this game - they have to expose smaller profile than competitors,and thanks to acceleration quirk hide before retaliation fire.Phract 3D can also do that trick as a poptart;sure,Bounty Hunter can do it too,but would have rise up higher to be able to use 2xPPCs in poptart style.Warhammers have to uncover over half of body to be able to shoot torso-mounted PPCs.
- 4X can make nice zombie with SRM4 + 2xML + 2xAC10(4t)/3xAC5(4t) with STD255 engine that has quite a punch,won't lose all ballistics when one ST is destroyed,and still can fight with only CT left.
- 4X and Ilya can do Dual Gauss more safely than Warhammer,as they store them in arms,away from side torsos,which usually have XL engine.Marauders are unable to equip 2xGauss.HA!Ilya could mount even 3xGauss,in good old days where that was working.

So,I would be cautious to say Phracts are plain obsolete to Marauders and Warhammers,or have worse hardpoints locations.

Edited by MasterBLB, 15 May 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[invernomuto]

Bud Crue, on 14 May 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

In other words: if you have build "A" and you put it on a Warhammer and on a Phract, the Warhammer is always a better choice. 4 AC-5s as mentioned above...try it on a BW vs a 4X. I will be shocked if you still prefer the Phract. 3LL and a Gauss? Put that on a Mad (or even a Hammer) same thing.

Please note, I am not taking this position because I hate Phracts. To the contrary, I have 6 of them. I just don't see that they have a function anymore when compared to the Hammer or Mad and I can't see how they could be made useful again (comparatively speaking) without a re-design.

I am ok with mechs with better hardpoints than others, BUT it should be balanced by quirks. It should be a general rule when assigning quirks to mechs.
E.g. Cataphracts have generally lower hardpoints than Warhammer: they should get better structure/armor quirks to make them more "tanky".
The 0XP that has ECM could receive some sensor sensor boost or intelligence gathering quirks...

Edited by invernomuto, 15 May 2016 - 03:24 AM.

[Bud Crue]

MasterBLB, on 15 May 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

Interesting...

Your premise is based on Cataphracts being XL friendly and Warhammers not. I think you will find A LOT of disagreement with that premise. Anecdotally, the most common BW builds I see are 4 UAC5 and 2 AC 10, 4ML both run XLs, both are really common...I don't see Phracts except for the occasional 0xp and those never seem to be running XLs. For me this is about HP height more than anything so even if I bought your XL friendliness argument I still think the Phract still needs help.
I don't see how in a side by side the Phracts hitboxes being more XL friendly than those of the Hammer. But in that same side by side I think you will find that the Hammers arm points are higher than the Phracts underarm mounts (why UNDER the arm!?). Only the two torso energy mounts are comparable to ALL the Hammer's torso mounts.

[Bud Crue]

invernomuto, on 15 May 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

I am ok with mechs with better hardpoints than others, BUT it should be balanced by quirks. It should be a general rule when assigning quirks to mechs.
E.g. Cataphracts have generally lower hardpoints than Warhammer: they should get better structure/armor quirks to make them more "tanky".
The 0XP that has ECM could receive some sensor sensor boost or intelligence gathering quirks...

1. mech with low hardpoints -> better quirks

I think this would be a good start for sure. But I don't think it is the solution (the screaming about IS over quirking is already loud enough). I think if they did a redesign, such as putting the arm mounts on the sides of the arms instead of under the arms that would help. Maybe bring the arms themselves up a bit. Put the RT ballistic point up higher even to just mid torso (or even better to shoulder height ala the Flame), etc. There are lots of possibilities without losing the look and feel of a Cataphract.

[Alienized]

put the ballistic slots on top like the blood asp has. *drools*

[Bud Crue]

Alienized, on 15 May 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

put the ballistic slots on top like the blood asp has. *drools*

I'm down with that. At least one of them, anyway. I keep thinking of one of the old TT illustrations wherein the Phract had exactly that: a big cannon sitting on top of its right shoulder. Don't know about the aesthetics, but I do know that in this game high hard points (and number of hard points) are a defining criteria of what makes a mech good, and the Phract is lacking in both, compared to other mechs of similar weights. A nice shoulder(s) cannon would perhaps not be an equalizer but it would help.

[Nightshade24]

Bud Crue, on 14 May 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

So when the Cataphract was introduced, the Warhammer was still an "Unseen", and there had been no reason to believe it would be a "seen" any time soon. The Warhammer is also thee most iconic mech in the BT franchise so there was a huge impetus to get something warhammer-like to the players. I believe that the Cataphract was introduced with its current geometry (big and broad with low hanging arms) as a synthesis of the mech as depicted in TT and as an effort to give a the players that desired "warhammer-like" appearance. Now that we actually have the Warhammer (and also the Marauder), this is a problem.

The WH and MAD have not only made the Cataphract redundant, but with their superior hardpoint locations, numbers and combinations, they have rendered the Phract wholly obsolete. I really want to play my phracts, but they are just utterly out-classed.

Yes, yes, there are other mechs that have suffered a similar fate. But I think in all the other cases the issue is merely duplicative builds or something that could be solved with a good quirk pass, but here the issue is that comparatively speaking, playing a Phract is an actual handicap to you and your team. This should be addressed.

I don't think a quirk pass would be sufficient here. I think an entire rescale AND re-imaging of the Phract is necessary. Thoughts?

Well I do not think the Cataphract was made as a Warhammer filler... if anything I think the Hellbringer was that but that's back to ye-olde days when most early clan mechs were just that in TT...

List of thinkgs Phrac' got over the Warhammer and/or Marauder:

• Ballistic arms, Allowing it to aim in more directions and a wider scope with quicker reaction then the the reseens.
  
• Jumpjets (3D) allows it to jumpjet, This is an advantage over all the warhammers and the traditional marauder, rest of the marauders got JJ however.
  
• ECM (0XP), clear advantage over the reseens
  
• Side torso weapons (compared to marauder) for support, specifically lasers.

It's decent enough I suppose. The problem is the more mechs we add the more saturated the whole scene appears. The differencess between a dozen mechs may be that the cockpit is slightly higher, ones slightly faster, and this thing has ECM. Back a few years ago the differencess were "this thing can go 40 kph faster then this thing. That thing has like a billion more armour then that and has a glowing eye! This is pure LRM boatage, nothing can boat better then this" etc.
Nothing made nothing redundant because everything was the only kind of that thing. The awesome had no other assault to compete with for PPC vomit, laser vomit, or LRM vomit. The atlas was the king of juggernauting and heavy armour, the commando being quick and fast, etc...

These days the differences are minour but that doesn't make things make other things obsolete.

However through quirks I think viarity can be strengthened through the weapons they may provide benefits with...

AC10, LBX 10, Ultra AC 5, AC 2, PPC, ER PPC, Large laser, These are all weapon quirks the Cataphract may have. Not on the same chassis but overall.
Sure, Marauder can do PPC's, ER PPC's, AC 5, and LBX 10 too. BUT not in the same combination.
A Cataphract can have LBX and PPC quirks on the same chassis while the Marauder can't. (it'll be something like large pulse laser and LBX 10).
The thing is it doesn't need to be the same quirk specifically.

Cataphract could say have an AC 5 fire rate quirk while the Marauder gets the range quirk.
Maybe it doesn't need to be weapon. It can also be reflected in sensor range, movement speed, agility, acceleration, targeting speed, etc...

Cataphract is still a pretty decent mech to me and the marauder and warhammer didn't change that. The cataphract has still some advantages. Problem is differences between the cataphract and marauder specifically is limited because the Cataphract is a frankenmech, The Arm of it came from the Marauder and that's why some weapons and arms bear resemblances.

I do not know or really think rescale will change this mech much or that many mechs to be honest. But reimagining the chassis? like a whole new model with different looks and stuff? That won't 'save' the mech, That will only make it the new-ish mech to try out and will no longer live in fame for that much longer after it. If you mean also adding a bunch of hardpoints do it I do not think that would be necessary...

[Nightshade24]

Bud Crue, on 15 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

I'm down with that. At least one of them, anyway. I keep thinking of one of the old TT illustrations wherein the Phract had exactly that: a big cannon sitting on top of its right shoulder. Don't know about the aesthetics, but I do know that in this game high hard points (and number of hard points) are a defining criteria of what makes a mech good, and the Phract is lacking in both, compared to other mechs of similar weights. A nice shoulder(s) cannon would perhaps not be an equalizer but it would help.

That is specifically for the Cataphract 0X (or MW: O's version, 0XP)



However, the other cataphracts (ie 2X) has been drawn with it a bit higher as well.

But to be honest I preffer it being lower, it's a bit more aesthetically pleasing and unique for this chassis (I do not mind if the 0X however has a high mounted one). Also having the ballistics higher would mean the energy would be lower which considering people like the energy side torso the most on these things that may chase people away more...

What's better? two high ER large lasers / large pulses / er ppc's or 1 high AC 5? / 10? / 20? / Gauss?
Well lots of mechs have high ballistsics (ie marauder) but not many got high energy in this config...

[Bud Crue]

Nightshade24, on 15 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

stuff

I agree that the Cataphract can still be played. I also agree that some good specific quirks would help it shine once again. My only premise is that as long as it has the hardpoints it has, number and location, but especially the later, I expect that the go to mech for ballistics in the heavy weight class will be anything other than a Phract.

If a player has access to warhammers, marauders and heck even Jaggers and wants to bring a mixed ballistics build there is currently no reason to choose a Phract (excepting of course for those that still find ECM of need) over those others. I think the only way to get the Phract to be "as good" is to give a bit of height to its hardpoint locations. The only way that can be done is through a redesign. I want to love my Phracts again, but for now I just don't think they are in the same league performance wise as most other heavy IS mechs (particularly the Hammer and Mad).

[Nightshade24]

Bud Crue, on 15 May 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

I agree that the Cataphract can still be played. I also agree that some good specific quirks would help it shine once again. My only premise is that as long as it has the hardpoints it has, number and location, but especially the later, I expect that the go to mech for ballistics in the heavy weight class will be anything other than a Phract.

If a player has access to warhammers, marauders and heck even Jaggers and wants to bring a mixed ballistics build there is currently no reason to choose a Phract (excepting of course for those that still find ECM of need) over those others. I think the only way to get the Phract to be "as good" is to give a bit of height to its hardpoint locations. The only way that can be done is through a redesign. I want to love my Phracts again, but for now I just don't think they are in the same league performance wise as most other heavy IS mechs (particularly the Hammer and Mad).

well, the Cataphract isn't really a ballistic mech, it's an energy mixed ballistic mech (with 2 variants with missiles, which I forgot to mention is another advantage over a marauder).

The Jagermech with superior ballistic potential is definetely a superior ballistic mech even though it is lighter BUT arguably it's worse at lasers and ppc's besides the hero variant.

The Warhammer is amazing at energy... but nothing is geared towards ballistics which were intended to be machine guns.

The marauder is another energy mixed ballistic mech. But with 3 Ballistic hardpoints... the Cataphract 4X can actually beat the Marauder here with a 4 AC 2 build with a laser (and even a lil SRM 4 in the head) or an all or nothing approach with 4 AC 5's...
Marauder can't top that. Not even the jagermech or warhammer (excluding hero) can!

The cataphract can have a pair of SRM 6's with artemis, an AC 20, and a trio of say medium lasers... nothing can really top that besides possibly the Warhammer. Possibly. But then preference of torso vs arm weapons come in for the SRM deal.


Cataphract 3D is left alone with worse hardpoints over the other mechs... but it can at least beat the marauder with JJ's... unless the Marauder 5M comes to step in as compition... but then here you got the higher energy hardpoints giving you a slight edge.

Situations like these as you can tell it's mostly up to preference.To be quite honest if you do not think the cataphract is in the same league it could be a few reasons why, but one of them may be because you are actually more interested in the maraduers/ warhammers positive traits then the cataphracts (or more distasteful to the cataphracts disadvantages compared to their ones)