93 replies to this topic

[Yeach]

In MW2, MW3 and MW4, many battles led to close range fights where mechs circled against each other (if the mechs were not overwhelm in the first few salvoes) in to a circular fight where the mech torso twisted to one side to fire weapons at each other.

Will there be much circle fighting in MWO?

As an aside, was circle fighting ever in TT?

[Raeven]

Did it happen in the tabletop? Yes, all the time. Since rear armor is so weak on all 'Mechs, fast 'Mechs and 'Mechs with jumpjets did everything they could to get behind their opponents. Unlike a video game, the chance to hit at range was a lot smaller because of the penalties to your dice roll, so most of the action typically took place within a 360 meter circle between two 'Mechs. 'Mechs with lots of movement usually didn't have a lot in the way of weapons or armor, so they tried to manuever behind their opponents any chance they got.

The circle strafing happened less with large 'Mechs moving at slower speeds, but there was still the shift and joggle to keep your opponent out of your soft rear armor. The video games actually made using ranged weapons -at range- a feasible option and opened up a larger array of tactics that typically wasn't viable in the tabletop.

[GaussDragon]

Yeach, on 08 December 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

In MW2, MW3 and MW4, many battles led to close range fights where mechs circled against each other (if the mechs were not overwhelm in the first few salvoes) in to a circular fight where the mech torso twisted to one side to fire weapons at each other.

Will there be much circle fighting in MWO?

I remember the devs saying they wanted to limit circle-strafing. Personally, I have no problem with it because I can't see two mechs standing still and exchanging blows. Seems like a rather organic by-product of close-range combat IMHO. One way the devs plan to limit it is by having a significant amount of urban maps though I specifically remember Bryan Ekman saying in one post close to a month ago that not all maps are going to urban.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

I think it would be cool if they introduced a side-step action. Maybe not a full strafe that you can hold and keep going in that direction, just a push-this-key-once and shuffle sideways a step. This would be especially great in cities, where you could duck behind a building quickly then pop back out and open fire.

Edited by Skwisgaar Skwigelf, 08 December 2011 - 12:31 PM.

[Havoc2]

The Circle of Death is what happens when you try to:

1) Keep moving so you're not an easy target
2) Keep your enemies from getting behind you
3) Turn so you can keep shooting at your enemy

In 1v1 battles, the COD is inevitable unless 1 person is standing still and just turning on the spot. In anything team related, the COD pretty much goes out the window as you have more than 1 person to both defend against and try and attack. Unless it's a very wide COD

[KingCobra]

Sence MW2-MW4MErcs circle fighting has been consistant why? Becouse there was not enough obsticales and terrain differances so players could hide and shoot rather than circle in flat terrain.So to limit the circle fights i would not have much flat open terrain to fight on and i would use the advanced radar concept by mektek where you are not always shown on radar.

[Jack Deth]

Good maps will cut down on this a lot. Varied terrain makes circle fighting a lot more difficult, especially if they can nail down trees properly as far as actually blocking line of sight and providing cover without preventing movement through them. Realistically dense urban environments will help with this too. The emphasis on electronic warfare should really open things up for more varied tactics too, I think.

[Stormwolf]

I don't mind a good old circle of death.

It is the best way for lights and mediums to destroy a assault.

[Kudzu]

Raeven, on 08 December 2011 - 12:22 PM, said:

Did it happen in the tabletop? Yes, all the time. Since rear armor is so weak on all 'Mechs, fast 'Mechs and 'Mechs with jumpjets did everything they could to get behind their opponents. Unlike a video game, the chance to hit at range was a lot smaller because of the penalties to your dice roll, so most of the action typically took place within a 360 meter circle between two 'Mechs. 'Mechs with lots of movement usually didn't have a lot in the way of weapons or armor, so they tried to manuever behind their opponents any chance they got.

The circle strafing happened less with large 'Mechs moving at slower speeds, but there was still the shift and joggle to keep your opponent out of your soft rear armor. The video games actually made using ranged weapons -at range- a feasible option and opened up a larger array of tactics that typically wasn't viable in the tabletop.

I'm going to have to slightly disagree with you here. In the MW series circle fighting refers to mechs actually running around in a circle, basically a daisy-chain of doom. In the TT you see a lot more use of the terrain to get the best to-hit numbers while giving your opponent worse to-hit numbers.

[Raeven]

Physical combat would change circle strafing a bit also.

[fakey]

I think it's been mentioned already but with the addition of more dense urban environments you'll see less circle strafing as you'd be running into ****. Plus, with teams and such you'll hopefully see more jockying for position and perhaps even some formations.

That being said, nothing wrong with circle strafing if it works.

[John Clavell]

I'd like this game to really give some more tactical advantage to flanking and rear armour. In MW4 shooting a mechs rear armour was not really a big advantage. From what I've played of Tabletop (MegaMek) I never have really seen much of people running around in a circle trying to shoot each other. It's more of a dance. Moving into cover, smoke, or using jump jets, and thinking ahead to make your enemy slip up and get into their rear arch. Or even trying to knock them over. In MW4, once in close, all you can really do is run around, trying to keep your Mechs reticule on the enemy and get in better skilled and timed shots to kill them first.

Edited by John Clavell, 08 December 2011 - 12:44 PM.

[Raeven]

Kudzu, on 08 December 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

I'm going to have to slightly disagree with you here. In the MW series circle fighting refers to mechs actually running around in a circle, basically a daisy-chain of doom. In the TT you see a lot more use of the terrain to get the best to-hit numbers while giving your opponent worse to-hit numbers.

Yes, but they haven't had a mix of different difficulty terrain in a video game so close together as they did on the board game. You didn't have trees, elevations, or rough ground to slow your movement as much as they would in the board game. In the video games, when you did have such situations, the elevations were extreme or the players simply avoided the slower terrain.

Also, in every tabletop game I have ever played, if someone won initiative and had the movement to get behind their opponent, they moved behind their opponent. Next turn, the opponent moved however he could to get that enemy out from behind him. i.e. circle strafing.

[Obelus]

The combat was pretty simple in the earlier PC games. The hardest part was looking one way while moving in another. Generally the battles were all the same - you run around in circles and shoot off one of their legs so they fall over and blow up while hoping you don't run out of LRMs or off a cliff.

Hope they can add some real tactical complexity to this game.

[Firefly]

Totally unrelated but a significant amount of people have tried the whole circle-strafing routine in SWTOR. Unfortunately it usually fails every single time because the game mechanics for combat are much different.

[Kudzu]

Raeven, on 08 December 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

Yes, but they haven't had a mix of different difficulty terrain in a video game so close together as they did on the board game. You didn't have trees, elevations, or rough ground to slow your movement as much as they would in the board game. In the video games, when you did have such situations, the elevations were extreme or the players simply avoided the slower terrain.

I agree completely with that, there's been a huge difference between TT and MW as far as tactics.

Quote

Also, in every tabletop game I have ever played, if someone won initiative and had the movement to get behind their opponent, they moved behind their opponent. Next turn, the opponent moved however he could to get that enemy out from behind him. i.e. circle strafing.

That's actually not the best plan in all cases. Depending how damaged the target is, where that damage is located, and what the terrain looks like it's not always the best plan to move directly behind the target.

[John Clavell]

Yeah that's the big ticker really. Winning initiative in TT. If you win, you can play more aggressively. If not, your normally going to be more defensive. TT presents a lot more tactical options. MechWarrior is a lot more limited into who a situation can play out. There is basically only only a handful of plays you can make. And you can't 'really' use your environment to your advantage. The best thing you can do it just be a better shot, and use weapons which will 'knock' your opponents aim off. It's pretty rinse and repeat experience.

[Glory in the Highest]

But is the Circle of Death even a problem that needs to be fixed?

[Kenyon Burguess]

its a good tactic 1v1 but i see most of the action being called spikes on vent. leader calls atlas. units 1-3 all fire on atlas till it explodes

[Havoc2]

John Clavell, on 08 December 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

MechWarrior is a lot more limited into who a situation can play out. There is basically only only a handful of plays you can make. And you can't 'really' use your environment to your advantage. The best thing you can do it just be a better shot, and use weapons which will 'knock' your opponents aim off. It's pretty rinse and repeat experience.

Yes and no.

In MW4 for example, terrain could be a huge advantage depending on if it was used properly (PPC/Guass snipers, LRM boats etc). People had a hate for "poptarting", Using jumpjets to pop out from behind a hill or building and firing then dropping behind cover again.
These are all effective uses of terrain, some used better than others.

Now having said that, I never played the TT so there may be any number of alternative tactics that were possible there that weren't in the PC games (like melee).