68 replies to this topic

[invernomuto]

Don't you find that Assault mechs are generally weak in MWO? It's not a whine, I enjoy this game very much and I think that mech classes are all viable and competitive.
However, to me Assault mechs does not "feel" right. If you get focus fired by 2 (or 3 mech) they go down very fast, even if you are in a 100 tons monster like a King Crab.

When I first got my first assault, a Battlemaster, I was shocked how “weak” it was. Walk without cover in front of the enemies for more than a bunch of seconds and your armor is gone and “Critical Damage” appears on your cockpit.
Don’t get me wrong, the Battlemasters are very good mechs and I learned how to use them effectively, but IMHO they do not “feel” like an assault.

With the Mauler or King Crab, the feeling is the same: they’re slower and have better armor, but you have to stay in cover or you go down fast.
The motto for assault in MWO could be: “Unleash your mighty firepower, but please don’t leave your rock…”

TL;DR: don’t you think that the time-to-kill of an assault mech should be raised with an armor buff or something similar?
Thoughts?

[Random Carnage]

Welcome to MWO. This is an age old debate that will likely degenerate to a light vs Assault rant.

I'm a dedicated Dire pilot, and with being so damned big and as slow as a tax refund, I would like a bit more internal structure if nothing else.

I doubt you'll ever see any more than that in this game though.

I personally believe TTK is way to fast, especially for Assault mechs, but in these forums, good luck trying that one on.

[Zerberus]

TTK overall needs to be raised , not just for assault mechs. WHen that´s done we can review whether some assaults are currently paper tigers or not.

[Widowmaker1981]

The trouble is, TTK is NOT too fast when its just one mech shooting at you. The reason for dying in seconds is walking out in front of 3+ enemies who all shoot you at the same time. Its not possible to increase the TTK of mechs being shot by many mechs without making a 1v1 encounter take far too long...

[oldradagast]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The trouble is, TTK is NOT too fast when its just one mech shooting at you. The reason for dying in seconds is walking out in front of 3+ enemies who all shoot you at the same time. Its not possible to increase the TTK of mechs being shot by many mechs without making a 1v1 encounter take far too long...

I don't fully agree with that - as we've all discussed before, long range precision damage is the problem. When those 3 mechs can put their entire alphas on your center torso every time at good ranges, yes, you die stupidly fast. Battletech and Mechwarrior were never really meant for that level of precision. Imagine how stupid freely picking where all your damage went in the tabletop game would be.

Now, I'm not advocating for random hit locations, a huge cone of fire, or making it so mechs are nearly unkillable, but it is very difficult to look at the current meta where a few remotely coordinated mechs can flatten in seconds anyone who dares step out from behind their rock as good for the game, either.

[invernomuto]

Random Carnage, on 16 May 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

Welcome to MWO. This is an age old debate that will likely degenerate to a light vs Assault rant.

I'm a dedicated Dire pilot, and with being so damned big and as slow as a tax refund, I would like a bit more internal structure if nothing else.

I doubt you'll ever see any more than that in this game though.

I personally believe TTK is way to fast, especially for Assault mechs, but in these forums, good luck trying that one on.

I think that the Dire should be heavily buffed. It goes down too fast for a 100 tonners (and I do not have one). I do not get why light should be affected: they can kill easily a buffed Atlas, I do not think they should have problem to kill a buffed slow-as-hell Dire...

Zerberus, on 16 May 2016 - 03:15 AM, said:

TTK overall needs to be raised , not just for assault mechs. WHen that´s done we can review whether some assaults are currently paper tigers or not.

Agreed. Do you think that the new "power drain system" aimed at limiting high alphas will increase TTK?

[Widowmaker1981]

oldradagast, on 16 May 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

I don't fully agree with that - as we've all discussed before, long range precision damage is the problem. When those 3 mechs can put their entire alphas on your center torso every time at good ranges, yes, you die stupidly fast. Battletech and Mechwarrior were never really meant for that level of precision. Imagine how stupid freely picking where all your damage went in the tabletop game would be.

Now, I'm not advocating for random hit locations, a huge cone of fire, or making it so mechs are nearly unkillable, but it is very difficult to look at the current meta where a few remotely coordinated mechs can flatten in seconds anyone who dares step out from behind their rock as good for the game, either.

Like it or not, unless they add respawns or repair bays (which i dont think they should), this game will always be played from cover. Its baked into the mechanics..

[oldradagast]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

Like it or not, unless they add respawns or repair bays (which i dont think they should), this game will always be played from cover. Its baked into the mechanics..

That wasn't my complaint. Low TTK and the ease with which large amounts of damage can be applied to single components is the problem; that's why TTK is so low and Battletech's hitbox and armor sections were not designed with that level of damage precision in mind.

[Widowmaker1981]

oldradagast, on 16 May 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

That wasn't my complaint. Low TTK and the ease with which large amounts of damage can be applied to single components is the problem; that's why TTK is so low and Battletech's hitbox and armor sections were not designed with that level of damage precision in mind.

I did see one suggestion that i liked a lot, actually - splitting up the hitboxes a lot, so that you have say 3-4 hotboxes in the ST, which all have the same total armour value as the ST would normally have, and all sharing the same internal structure - so if you punch through the armour with a concentrated burst, you have to hit the exact same spot again to exploit the hole.

All the ones saying your guns shouldnt go where you aim though though? Nope.

[Zerberus]

invernomuto, on 16 May 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Agreed. Do you think that the new "power drain system" aimed at limiting high alphas will increase TTK?

Unlike most of this community, I do not think anything about the system or any other announced but not accurately explained features until they are actually implemented and I can see the impacts first hand, or at least read more than just the (tentative) name of it.

We already have enough people here willing to kill everyone tehy know and blame it on PGI simply because of a missing comma in a roadmap for me to want to add to that asinine irrationality by being any part of it

I HOPE it will be a step in that direction. That is the entire extent of my feelings as well as the maximum anyone can reasonably deduce from the information currently available to us.

Edited by Zerberus, 16 May 2016 - 03:39 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The trouble is, TTK is NOT too fast when its just one mech shooting at you. The reason for dying in seconds is walking out in front of 3+ enemies who all shoot you at the same time. Its not possible to increase the TTK of mechs being shot by many mechs without making a 1v1 encounter take far too long...

I would argue about that. I have a theory on that (which is mine and belongs to me):

IMHO 1vs1 encounters have slow TTK for poke-alpha-hide laser builds, which constitute like 90% of recommended builds out there. It's the poke and hide/focus fire oriented meta that makes most mechs too hot and too focused on lasers instead of PPFLD to kill an enemy quickly in 1v1. Brawling builds can have 80+ near-PPFLD (like clan spls+clan srms) or PPFLD alphas that can easily one shot smaller or wounded mechs and 2-3 shot basically anyone, only hardly anyone uses such builds (at least in pugs and CW) due to the current meta.

My point is, giving mechs more armor or otherwise gimping current pokey/focusfire meta may potentially LOWER 1vs1 TTK, by rising overall usefullness of more brawl-oriented / cooler / ppfld high-dmg builds.

[adamts01]

As a mostly light pilot, I say assaults need a serious buff, especially the slow ones. I like the idea of massive internal buffs, that gives crit-seeking weapons(MGs & LBX) a role. Right now there's zero point in critting a weapon when you can just remove the entire body part with another quick shot. This would give mechs roles too. Right now assaults are just ******** heavies, they should be a cornerstone of an attack. Whatever, this whole game sucks.

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The trouble is, TTK is NOT too fast when its just one mech shooting at you. The reason for dying in seconds is walking out in front of 3+ enemies who all shoot you at the same time. Its not possible to increase the TTK of mechs being shot by many mechs without making a 1v1 encounter take far too long...

I don't agree. My cheesy timby can two shot just about anything.

[Hit the Deck]

Don't get focused fire by the enemy. Ideally, one should use VOIP and tactical awareness so your lighter teammates are around you to first engage the enemies while you bring the pain from the middle or back of the formation. Applicable to Dire Whales or King Crabs for example. Slow brawlers like the Atlas need to operate differently.

[Nightshade24]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The trouble is, TTK is NOT too fast when its just one mech shooting at you. The reason for dying in seconds is walking out in front of 3+ enemies who all shoot you at the same time. Its not possible to increase the TTK of mechs being shot by many mechs without making a 1v1 encounter take far too long...

really becauses it's still to fast for me in a 1vs1.

I expect say 1 mech fighting another mech to take longer then 10-20 seconds...

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightshade24, on 16 May 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

really becauses it's still to fast for me in a 1vs1.

I expect say 1 mech fighting another mech to take longer then 10-20 seconds...

It does, if you don't stare.

[Nightshade24]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

It does, if you don't stare.

staring shouldn't be a factor, staring should be 25 at the very least unless you did something like shooting the cockpit or rear or what ever.

That or you had really high focus on firepower. (this is assuming for eg an assault mech is receiving the damage)
I do not want to be rolling for say 30 minutes and be just a walking cored CT in 20 seconds in.

[Lightfoot]

Any mech gets destroyed fast with 2 mechs shooting at it. The challenge is to make those face to face moments in your favor or a 1v1 and then the Assault mech wins handily. There are some bad assault mechs, but they all do well 1v1 vs lighter mechs. I usually pilot a heavy or medium right now and if I get stuck in a 1v1 with an assault I have to go evasive between rocks or buildings to stand a chance.

[invernomuto]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

I did see one suggestion that i liked a lot, actually - splitting up the hitboxes a lot, so that you have say 3-4 hotboxes in the ST, which all have the same total armour value as the ST would normally have, and all sharing the same internal structure - so if you punch through the armour with a concentrated burst, you have to hit the exact same spot again to exploit the hole. All the ones saying your guns shouldnt go where you aim though though? Nope.

This!
I do not get why they replicated the TT's armor locations without considering the fact that in the TT rules hits were distribuited semi-randomly (IIRC it was based on the mech facing) on the mech.
Of course with a semi random hit location you can live with just 10 "hit locations" and an armor that decreases at each hit absorbed.
Splitting the armor value on each hitbox seems a good solution to me. Another one is to change the lasers in game, treating them like normal (fast) projectiles...

[El Bandito]

invernomuto, on 16 May 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

When I first got my first assault, a Battlemaster, I was shocked how “weak” it was. Walk without cover in front of the enemies for more than a bunch of seconds and your armor is gone and “Critical Damage” appears on your cockpit.

TBF, Battlemaster's cockpit is located in a very vulnerable position. I consider it a boon, since the cockpit takes hit for the CT. Just watch for artillery strike afterwards.

[Hit the Deck]

invernomuto, on 16 May 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

This!
I do not get why they replicated the TT's armor locations without considering the fact that in the TT rules hits were distribuited semi-randomly (IIRC it was based on the mech facing) on the mech.

They have taken that into consideration by doubling the armor values. One could argue that it is still not enough....