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Theorycrafting: Catapult, The Support Role


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#1 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

Re-calculated for math. I hate math.

Well, still bored. So, the Catapult sitting unused in my Legendary Founder's garage has been staring at me forlornly.

I'm not a huge fan of piloting a support mech, but I sure as hell love it when people on my side are. It's not difficult to see that the catapult was intended as a workhorse support mech, and the stock variant fills that role admirably. But could it be better?

Before I can answer that question, I need to know what is meant by Support. Everyone seems to toss that term around, but what does it mean? I'm of the opinion it comes from the term Fire Support. The interesting point here is the quote "...is used to shape the battlefield or, more optimistically, define the battle."

Well that certainly makes the support role sound important. The application of firepower from a distant point allows the individual directing the fire to shape the battle. But how?

Well if you can hit your enemy, and he can't strike back at you, you have just forced your enemy to make a decision. He has to either retreat, advance to a range he can retaliate from, or sit there and take it. Congratulations, you have just shaped the battle. Of course, picking the right target will be critical, and the right location to fire from also.

So how could the stock catapult be made more effective in a fire support role? It's already pretty effective, but it does have some shortcomings. Primarily it lacks the ammunition for a protracted engagement. 8 salvos and you are empty. Also the armor is disturbingly light. 160 out of a maximum of 211.

Assuming a 1:1 hardpoint ratio we take the mech sitting in our garage and strip off all the weapons and equipment:

65 - 16 tons (2 LRM 15 + 2 Tons ammo) - 4 tons (4 Medium Lasers) - 5 tons (heatsinks) - 4 tons (jump jets) leaving us with a 36 ton chassis, with 260 standard engine giving 4/6 movement and the original armor load of 10 tons (160 armor points).

The three primary considerations of any armor unit (mechs included) are speed, firepower, and armor. A speed of 4/6 seems reasonable for a support role. Any slower and it will be difficult to maintain a position to fire from, any faster and the main consideration in a support role, firepower, could be compromised. Weight can be saved by going to an XL engine however, if we want the added risk of increased vulnerability. Since firepower is again, the foremost concern:

260 STD fusion engine 13.5 tons vs 260 XL fusion engine 7 tons

A savings of 6.5 tons seems like a reasonable decision. (right up until our left or right torso gets breached).

Substituting the XL engine makes our stripped down chassis now weigh in at:

36 - 6.5 = 29.5 tons.

Armor is also a consideration, but again in a support role, we are supposed to be firing from a position of relative safety. Still 10 tons is rather light and armor is relatively cheap with regards to tonnage. Lets increase the armor by 1 ton, giving us an extra 16 points of armor. This allows us to max our armor on the left and right torso (to guard the vulnerable XL engine) from 19/8 (front/rear) to 22/8 each, and upgrade the rather lightly armored arms from 13 armor each to 18 of a maximum of 20 armor each.

So 29.5 + 1 ton of armor = 30.5 tons.

The primary consideration for fire support is of course firepower, and if we can bring enough of it to bear on a target we can change the course of a battle without ever having to move our lazy *** off the couch... I mean hill. Considering that we are working under a 1:1 hardpoint ratio however, it severely limits the configurations we can consider. Twin LRM 20's is of course the maximum we can consider, but given our current weight allowance of 34.5 tons, that would eat up 22 tons of it, and only give us enough ammunition for 6 salvos, with almost nothing left for discouraging close range attacks. This is less than optimal. Remaining at twin LRM 15 launchers is certainly a viable option at this point, but we could punch harder.

1 LRM 20 RA + 1 LRM 15 LA is a good compromise. Weighing in at 17 tons without ammo it gives us room to boost the ammunition levels for a sustained firing role. 4 tons of ammo for the LRMs gives us 480 missiles, enough for 13 shots of the LRM 20 (260 missiles) and 13 shots of the LRM 15 (210). (An interesting question arises at this point- what happens when you have 10 missiles left over and no LRM 10?)

So 30.5 + 17 (weapons) + 4 (ammo) = 51.5 tons.

With our remaining 13.5 tons we can do a lot to discourage close in attackers. With 4 energy hardpoints the concern is a good balance of range and damage vs heat. I personally will opt for 1 large laser mounted in the center torso, and 2 medium lasers mounted in the left and right torsos.

51.5 + 5 (Large Laser) + 2 (Medium Lasers) = 58.5 tons

This leaves us with 6.5 tons left over. This is primarily due to upgrading our engine, so again it seems like a good decision (right up until we lose a left or right torso). With the demands of a large laser we will need more heatsinks to make the best use of it, as we now have direct fire capability out to 450m.

5 heatsinks will give us 15 heat dissipation, which will allow us to remain cool while firing LRMS, and also allow us to fire the Large Laser and Medium Lasers for a period of time against anyone encroaching on our firing position.

But we still have 1.5 tons left. And since the best solution is to enemy encroachment on our firing position is to remain undetected as long a possible, it is fortunate that a Guardian ECM Suite weighs in at exactly 1.5 tons.

58.5 + 5 (heatsinks) + 1.5 (ECM) = 65

So to recap, we now have a catapult with the same movement rate, no jumpjets, more vulnerable torsos, the same number of heatsinks, slightly enhanced armor, and more firepower with the ammunition to sustain the firepower longer.

There's no way to know for sure if the build actually works better (or worse) that the standard catapult, but we can re-examine our assumptions.

The first assumption that jumps out is the lack of jumpjets. (sorry, bad pun) We are obviously assuming that they are not needed in a support role. Useful yes, but necessary? The assumption is that the increased weapons load and ammunition is going to be more useful.

The second assumption is that the increasing one LRM 15 to an LRM 20 is worth the tonnage. With only 5 more missiles per salvo one could easily argue that twin LRM 15's was a better loadout, and we could have gotten even more ammunition. Or conversely twin LRM 20's and less ammunition. All I can say is that it seems like a reasonable compromise, and only testing can determine if it works and how well.

The third assumption is that exchanging the Large Laser for 2 Medium Lasers is worth the tonnage, and heat. Range is an important consideration, and at 450m the ability to engage an encroaching mech with both LRM's and a Large laser may discourage them from closing any further, allowing you to maintain your firing position for longer. (assuming you have a firing position you need to maintain, otherwise you should be leaving!) Again it's difficult to tell without testing.

Lastly the assumption that an ECM suite is a worthwhile investment. At only 1.5 tons it probably will more than pay for itself if all it does is jam NARC beacons. If there's one thing a cannon cocker (Support) hates, it's counter battery fire. Fire support duels are brutal affairs, and even if you happen to win, you've been too busy responding to the enemy's initiative to do your primary job, providing fire support to your team mates.

The ECM suite should foil tagging scouts, allowing you (or more hopefully your screen) more time to deal with them before the enemy fire support can lock onto your position. This should give you more time to do your job and hopefully, shape the battle.

Addendum - the recalculation results in 2 tons less armor, but this shouldn't be an issue for a support mech. Of more concern is the reduction of heatsinks from 18 to 15. Double heatsinks might be something to consider. But the heat profile should be manageable depending on the pilot.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 15 July 2012 - 03:31 PM.


#2 Leetskeet

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:52 PM

tldr for theorycraft

#3 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

Too bad. The theory part was the best part. The crafting was merely an example of application.

#4 Ubertron X

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:58 PM

You are wrong with the weights. Let me give you the original Catapult, then theory craft again.

Engine: 13,5t
Gyro: 3t
Cockpit: 3t
Internal Structure: 6,5t
Armor: 10t (160pt)
Jump Jets: 4t
4 Medium Laser: 4t
2 LRM 15 plus Ammo: 16t
Heat Sinks 5t

Sum: 65t

#5 LunarWind

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:00 PM

An excellent example of how much tweaking can be done to any given chassis to not only alter it's role, but also enhance an already occupied role.

Hat's off to you, sir, and a hearty +1 to the post.

#6 Duo

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:01 PM

The mission of the Field Artillery is to integrate and deliver lethal and non-lethal fires to enable joint and maneuver commanders to dominate their operational environment across the spectrum of operations!

The mission of the Firing Battery is to destroy, neutralize, or suppress the enemy by cannon, rocket, and missile fires and to help integrate all fire support assets into combined arms operations!

#7 Serevn

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:02 PM

If you don't like support roles just throw SRMs on your mech and blow the face off of anything. Personally I like raining down LRMs "Today's weather looks like it will be explosive."

Edited by Serevn, 15 July 2012 - 03:06 PM.


#8 Britbaldie

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

Nice :)

I personally believe (having been in the Military) that the support role means exactly that, to assist rather than just fire support.
For example, you could ask for support from a scout mech, its not going to give you fire support though B) but it can assist you in spotting the enemy -_-

#9 fluffypinkbunny

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:10 PM

strip the lrm's out, put in some srm's ramp the speed, and take your now heavy mech, into toe to toe combat

#10 Jad Ivask

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

Unsurprisingly, thats pretty much what I inted to do with my Founder's Catapult, just with a difference in energy armerment. I'd go with a second large laser over the three meds and less armor than your build, but I always prefer to open fire rather than allow a hit to go unpunished. :)

#11 Ubertron X

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

If you want to go "all" support I would propose the following:

XL Engine: 7t (6 crits)
Gyro: 3t
Cockpit: 3t
Internal Structure (endo): 3,5t (14 crits)
Armor: 12,5t (200pt)
Jump Jets: 4t (4 crits)
4 Medium Laser: 4t (4 crits)
2 LRM 20 plus 6t Ammo + 2 Artemis IV FCS: 28t (18 crits)
Heat Sinks: 0 (10 double)

Sum: 65t (46 crits)

And believe me Jumps Jets are vital to enable you to go places where you will not be expected to go and to escape unwanted attackers.

Edited by Ubertron X, 15 July 2012 - 03:19 PM.


#12 Duncan Aravain

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:12 PM

Nice bit of a work up, +1 from me.

Going to have to wait until Beta to see what I eventually settle with as my main loadout. Thinking along the lines of sacrificing some other capabilities for a heavy ammo loadout. I think a constant rain of damage will distract the enemy enough that they will either start to fear attrition damage over time or it will mess up their targeting as their mech rocks from taking incomming. My lance mates should then have a cleaner opening to make the kill.

#13 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

View PostUbertron X, on 15 July 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

You are wrong with the weights. Let me give you the original Catapult, then theory craft again.

Engine: 13,5t
Gyro: 3t
Cockpit: 3t
Internal Structure: 6,5t
Armor: 10t (160pt)
Jump Jets: 4t
4 Medium Laser: 4t
2 LRM 15 plus Ammo: 16t
Heat Sinks 5t

Sum: 65t



Interesting. The original record sheet agrees. I must have miscounted the armor.


Ahh the engine. I also misread the 13.5 as 18.5. Silly tiny print. That means a 7.5 ton discrepancy. hrmm :)

Well back to the drawing board.

#14 Jad Ivask

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:16 PM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 15 July 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:



Interesting. The original record sheet agrees. I must have miscounted the armor.


Ahh the engine. I also misread the 13.5 as 18.5. Silly tiny print. That means a 7.5 ton discrepancy. hrmm :)

Well back to the drawing board.


You have seven and a half more tons to play with. Get more ammo and more heatsinks to keep your Catapult in the face wrecking business longer!

#15 DoctorJest

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:22 PM

Any thoughts on 2 x LRM 20 vs. 2 x LRM 15 with Artemis?

I'm sure it has been mentioned at some point that the latter option represents a higher damage output as an arithmetical mean? If Artemis will even be available that is? Clearly the dual LRM 15 option gives us a little weight saving and although Artemis can't be used for indirect fire anything that provides more reliable dmg. output seems worthwhile.....

I'll dig out some of the old books and put some figures to the guesswork.

#16 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:33 PM

Recalculated to account for the discrepancies. I think...

View PostJad Ivask, on 15 July 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:


You have seven and a half more tons to play with. Get more ammo and more heatsinks to keep your Catapult in the face wrecking business longer!


No no, 7.5 tons over. It is recalculated now.

#17 Vyviel

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

Yeah I will be interested to see how the mechlab looks and what hardpoints we have to play around with.

#18 Ubertron X

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:36 PM

View PostDoctorJest, on 15 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Any thoughts on 2 x LRM 20 vs. 2 x LRM 15 with Artemis?

I'm sure it has been mentioned at some point that the latter option represents a higher damage output as an arithmetical mean? If Artemis will even be available that is? Clearly the dual LRM 15 option gives us a little weight saving and although Artemis can't be used for indirect fire anything that provides more reliable dmg. output seems worthwhile.....

I'll dig out some of the old books and put some figures to the guesswork.


Though Artemis IV is great for LRM's a LRM15 will not outperform a LRM20, even with Artemis.

Lets compare missiles roll by roll:

LRM 15 with Artemis: 06+09+09+09+09+12+12+15+15+15+15
Plain LRM 20: 06+06+09+12+12+12+12+16+16+20+20

The only number on which the "pimped" LRM15 is better is if you roll a 3 on the missile hits table, otherwise the LRM20 will always yield the same or a better result.

Of course it will save you 2 tonnes if you use a LRM15 + Artemis instead of a LRM20 (and you will have more salvos per ton of ammo).

Edited by Ubertron X, 15 July 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#19 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:39 PM

View PostDoctorJest, on 15 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Any thoughts on 2 x LRM 20 vs. 2 x LRM 15 with Artemis?

I'm sure it has been mentioned at some point that the latter option represents a higher damage output as an arithmetical mean? If Artemis will even be available that is? Clearly the dual LRM 15 option gives us a little weight saving and although Artemis can't be used for indirect fire anything that provides more reliable dmg. output seems worthwhile.....

I'll dig out some of the old books and put some figures to the guesswork.


I didn't consider it as an option because no one seems to know exactly how it is going to work in game at this point.

And if you're looking at direct fire options, there are lighter and possibly more efficient solutions available on other chassis. The capability for indirect fire seems too good to give up.

#20 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostDuncan Aravain, on 15 July 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Nice bit of a work up, +1 from me.

Going to have to wait until Beta to see what I eventually settle with as my main loadout. Thinking along the lines of sacrificing some other capabilities for a heavy ammo loadout. I think a constant rain of damage will distract the enemy enough that they will either start to fear attrition damage over time or it will mess up their targeting as their mech rocks from taking incomming. My lance mates should then have a cleaner opening to make the kill.


You may want to consider letting your lancemates pick the target, and then support them from long range. This has the benefit of hitting an already damaged target, and ALSO, they don't immediately notice you and take countermeasures. The longer you can remain undetected, the longer you can stay in a position to pick and choose targets that will change the course of the battle.

Of course, sometimes you just have to light up that damned little scout weaving around unnoticed in the background because no one else is doing it...





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