189 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

KBurn85, on 20 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I find the hate on Gman and metamechs *very* disrespectful. Gman is one of the top players in one of the top comp teams, who has done INVALUABLE work in helping those who want to improve themselves. MWO is complicated enough, and he has done A LOT of work to help us.

Half of those criticising and calling his build trash don't even have a tier displayed. I'm glad the forums allowed us to show tiers, so we could tell the actual trash (people who don't show their tiers) from good advice. Show your tiers trash. I respect tier 5s more than you, because at least they have guts. You have none. Bunch of cowards.

And here you come criticising his builds. Maybe if you actually followed them, you could show your tiers.

Disgraceful.

While I agree with the fact that people shouldn't hate on GMan, you're wrong about not showing tiers on the forum.

Some people don't show it because they don't have anything to prove. They're confident enough in their skills that they don't need a number to tell them so. Even Adiuvo from EmP uses this mindset. Mister Blastman is another.

There are also those who simply don't care and are indifferent to all of this.

There are also those who see that the tier system is really an XP bar more than anything. It's been designed so that decent players will gain PSR more often than they lose it, meaning they slowly but surely climb up to the highest tier even without improving the skills at all.

Lastly, there are also those who don't want to really get involved in e-peen measuring contests. The internet is already toxic enough without them.


Ultimately, the reason that people are so hateful towards GMan and competitive types in general is because a small number of comp types have acted like tools in the past (e.g. Villz), and this has resulted in creating a stereotype applied to all of the bunch. Your post quoted above actually uses the same kind of language that drives so many people on this forum to have a mouth-frothing hatred of competitive play.

Your first paragraph was a good, objective explanation of why people should stop bashing Gman. You didn't need to ruin it with insults immediately after it.

Edited by FupDup, 20 May 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[0111101]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

Basically best time i got with 600 ammo is 3:17 though my kodiak is not yet elited.
In practice however youll be pressured to put more dmg and you wont manage heat so nicely as i did in those tests, also there will be time where you wont have anything to fire on because youre relocating, youre pinned down by fire or enemy before you decided to die.

>you wont manage heat so nicely as i did in those tests

sounds like a personal performance problem.

>there will be time where you wont have anything to fire on because youre relocating

sounds like another personal performance problem.

And my point with the math was that 10 tons of ammo falls neatly into the desired amount combat time pretty much every ammo dependent weapon should shoot for. You can get away with 60 seconds of firing time in a competitive match where the teams are smaller and the shots are coordinated with allies. In a 12v12 environment where your team might fall like a house of cards, 100 seconds of firing time is the starting point for "enough ammo to carry the match"

[davoodoo]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

>you wont manage heat so nicely as i did in those tests

sounds like a personal performance problem.

>there will be time where you wont have anything to fire on because youre relocating

sounds like another personal performance problem.

And my point with the math was that 10 tons of ammo falls neatly into the desired amount combat time pretty much every ammo dependent weapon should shoot for. You can get away with 60 seconds of firing time in a competitive match where the teams are smaller and the shots are coordinated with allies. In a 12v12 environment where your team might fall like a house of cards, 100 seconds of firing time is the starting point for "enough ammo to carry the match"

Its not Personal performance problem, theres extra heat for every extra weapon you fire so chainfire is most efficient way of managing heat but it wont match alpha dmg,

Destroying enemy team in good rush takes what?? minute of fire?? less??
Rest of the match is time where you dont fire, because youre relocating.

Lemme do test for alphas.
4 at once, double tap mere 4 minutes.
2-2 fire, double tap 3:22
So yeah in actual combat you wont manage it so well as in tests.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 May 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[0111101]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Its not Personal performance problem, theres extra heat for every extra weapon you fire so chainfire it most efficient way of managing heat but it wont match alpha dmg.

Destroying enemy team in good rush takes what?? minute of fire?? less??
Rest of the match is time where you dont fire, because youre relocating.

Chainfire is even less heat efficient than alpha striking. It doesn't give your mech any time to cool off since you have 4UAC10s going off one after the other. Aiming is also more work because you have to keep your shots on target non-stop instead of lining it up quickly, firing everything, lining up again... get it?

The ghost heat on 4UAC10s is negligible too. From Smurfy's: 1.44 ghost heat incurred when firing 4UAC10s simultaneously (13.44 total heat.)

The most efficient alternative to alpha striking is firing them in pairs. This way you incur no ghost heat since it only starts with 3 or more UAC10s being fired simultaneously. You've also got a moment to cool in between salvos if you space them apart without double tapping. Only chain fire when you're near 100% heat and need to squeeze off a single shot to finish your target or dissuade it from pursuing you as you move to cool off.

Edited by 0111101, 20 May 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[davoodoo]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

Chainfire is even less heat efficient than alpha striking. It doesn't give your mech any time to cool off since you have 4UAC10s going off one after the other.

The ghost heat on 4UAC10s is negligible too. From Smurfy's: 1.44 ghost heat incurred when firing 4UAC10s simultaneously (13.44 total heat.)

The most efficient alternative to alpha striking is firing them in pairs. This way you incur no ghost heat since it only starts with 3 or more UAC10s being fired simultaneously. You've also got a moment to cool in between salvos if you space them apart without double tapping. Only chain fire when you're near 100% heat and need to squeeze off a single shot to finish your target or dissuade it from pursuing you as you move to cool off.

Provided you with tests.

Chainfire 3:17(btw this one had 1 less dhs)
2-2 3:22
alpha 4:00

Chainfire is most heat efficient way.
Also notice numbers above that table, 2(0.08) and 4(0.30), this is extra heat you produce when you fire that amount of weapons regardless of what these weapons are. And even neglible 0.08 added up for 8 heat over 100 volleys.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 May 2016 - 04:00 PM.

[0111101]

FupDup, on 20 May 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

While I agree with the fact that people shouldn't hate on GMan, you're wrong about not showing tiers on the forum.

Some people don't show it because they don't have anything to prove. They're confident enough in their skills that they don't need a number to tell them so. Even Adiuvo from EmP uses this mindset. Mister Blastman is another.

There are also those who simply don't care and are indifferent to all of this.

There are also those who see that the tier system is really an XP bar more than anything. It's been designed so that decent players will gain PSR more often than they lose it, meaning they slowly but surely climb up to the highest tier even without improving the skills at all.

Lastly, there are also those who don't want to really get involved in e-peen measuring contests. The internet is already toxic enough without them.


Ultimately, the reason that people are so hateful towards GMan and competitive types in general is because a small number of comp types have acted like tools in the past (e.g. Villz), and this has resulted in creating a stereotype applied to all of the bunch. Your post quoted above actually uses the same kind of language that drives so many people on this forum to have a mouth-frothing hatred of competitive play.

Your first paragraph was a good, objective explanation of why people should stop bashing Gman. You didn't need to ruin it with insults immediately after it.

He's spot on about the people hiding their tier. They're bad players and afraid to show it. They just don't know that the "quality" posts they make say it all for them.

[FupDup]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

He's spot on about the people hiding their tier. They're bad players and afraid to show it. They just don't know that the "quality" posts they make say it all for them.

Do you think that Adiuvo from EmP is a bad player?

[davoodoo]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

He's spot on about the people hiding their tier. They're bad players and afraid to show it. They just don't know that the "quality" posts they make say it all for them.

I also dont agree with that.

Constant pointing to tier is simply genetic fallacy.

If argument is bad then prove it is bad isntead of dismissing it as not tier 1 thus not worth considering.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 20 May 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Do you think that Adiuvo from EmP is a bad player?

Question is, does he even know who that is?

[0111101]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Provided you with tests.

Chainfire 3:17(btw this one had 1 less dhs)
2-2 3:22
alpha 4:00

Chainfire is most heat efficient way.
Also notice numbers above that table, 2(0.08) and 4(0.30), this is extra heat you produce when you fire that amount of weapons regardless of what these weapons are. And even neglible 0.08 added up for 8 heat over 100 volleys.

Jesus you're worse than a brick wall. How many ways can I lay it out? Chainfire is trash. You may be generating less heat but you're also only generating 25% of your total damage capability at any given time. Your aim will be **** because you are firing a stream of projectiles that have significant travel time. It's far easier to line everything up once, pull the trigger, and then line it up again as your weapons come off of cooldown instead of trying to lead a target for the ages it will take you to kill it with 1 UAC10 at a time.

[0111101]

FupDup, on 20 May 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Do you think that Adiuvo from EmP is a bad player?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 May 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Question is, does he even know who that is?

Cute line of questioning.

Anyway... how can you argue with the irrational drivel that gets posted on these forums? You honestly don't see any correlation between low tier player's posts regarding balance and high tier player's posts? That was rhetorical. Of course you don't, or you wouldn't be jumping to their undeserved defense.

[FupDup]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

Cute line of questioning.

Anyway... how can you argue with the irrational drivel that gets posted on these forums? You honestly don't see any correlation between low tier player's posts regarding balance and high tier player's posts? That was rhetorical. Of course you don't, or you wouldn't be jumping to their undeserved defense.

You might want to re-read my reply to KBurn. It contains different content than you think.

[0111101]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

I also dont agree with that.

Constant pointing to tier is simply genetic fallacy.

If argument is bad then prove it is bad isntead of dismissing it as not tier 1 thus not worth considering.

I've already proven it, you've simply refused to hear it.

[0111101]

FupDup, on 20 May 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

You might want to re-read my reply to KBurn. It contains different content than you think.

This?

FupDup, on 20 May 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

While I agree with the fact that people shouldn't hate on GMan, you're wrong about not showing tiers on the forum.

Some people don't show it because they don't have anything to prove. They're confident enough in their skills that they don't need a number to tell them so. Even Adiuvo from EmP uses this mindset. Mister Blastman is another.

There are also those who simply don't care and are indifferent to all of this.

There are also those who see that the tier system is really an XP bar more than anything. It's been designed so that decent players will gain PSR more often than they lose it, meaning they slowly but surely climb up to the highest tier even without improving the skills at all.

Lastly, there are also those who don't want to really get involved in e-peen measuring contests. The internet is already toxic enough without them.


Ultimately, the reason that people are so hateful towards GMan and competitive types in general is because a small number of comp types have acted like tools in the past (e.g. Villz), and this has resulted in creating a stereotype applied to all of the bunch. Your post quoted above actually uses the same kind of language that drives so many people on this forum to have a mouth-frothing hatred of competitive play.

Your first paragraph was a good, objective explanation of why people should stop bashing Gman. You didn't need to ruin it with insults immediately after it.

Yes I read your list of excuses for the ones that are genuinely bad and hiding that from public display (and yet the quality of their posts gives them away.) Yes, there are outliers like Adiuvo and whoever else is T1/T2 and doesn't display their tier.

That's not the point. The point is that people are hiding their tier and making laughably uninformed statements about game balance that could be heard and implemented by the equally oblivious devs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

Anyway... how can you argue with the irrational drivel that gets posted on these forums?

Funny thing is, I don't see any major correlation because I see the same irrational drivel from tier 1 players as well, tiers are not an assurance of an understanding of the game and I have seen non-tier 1 players actually have a better understanding than some tier 1s on these very forums.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 May 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[davoodoo]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

Jesus you're worse than a brick wall. How many ways can I lay it out? Chainfire is trash. You may be generating less heat but you're also only generating 25% of your total damage capability at any given time. Your aim will be **** because you are firing a stream of projectiles that have significant travel time. It's far easier to line everything up once, pull the trigger, and then line it up again as your weapons come off of cooldown instead of trying to lead a target for the ages it will take you to kill it with 1 UAC10 at a time.

Which i ******* said before...Ill even quote myself on that

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Its not Personal performance problem, theres extra heat for every extra weapon you fire so chainfire is most efficient way of managing heat but it wont match alpha dmg,

It expends lots of ammo the fastest because you generate least heat as ive proven in my tests.

But ok prove me wrong, pack 600 rounds of uac10 on kdk3 and show me 5 matches from single person where they managed to fire over 95% of their ammo at general enemies direction and scored over 75% of possible dmg or simply 1500+.
Ill give you plenty of time, till june 1st current year.

Thats 9 days or 216 hours, with 15 minutes per match you can do 864 matches during that time, i ask for merely 0.5% of those to manage that feat, though it would be actually feasible if at least 20-30% matches ended like that.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 May 2016 - 04:35 PM.

[FupDup]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

This?

Yes I read your list of excuses for the ones that are genuinely bad and hiding that from public display (and yet the quality of their posts gives them away.) Yes, there are outliers like Adiuvo and whoever else is T1/T2 and doesn't display their tier.

That's not the point. The point is that people are hiding their tier and making laughably uninformed statements about game balance that could be heard and implemented by the equally oblivious devs.

There are also Tier 1 players who make laughable statements, such as a "certain Davion assault mech Gauss boat enthusiast" who insists that the pre-nerf Gauss Rifle was a weak weapon and that light mechs are OP.

A lot of people who display their tier make bad posts as well. There really isn't any correlation here besides confirmation bias.

Tiers really are just an XP bar since they're biased to make your rating go up more easily than go down. A good player can climb the XP bar more quickly, but anyone with a reasonable level of competence can make their up to T1 over time.

[Ted Wayz]

Wow. Peeps who used Metamechs to justify the Rifleman now saying it is a joke. But hypocrisy doesn't seem to bother some. Actually they seem to embrace it.

Metamechs is a joke. Said it once and I will say it again.

[Mcgral18]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Yes I read your list of excuses for the ones that are genuinely bad and hiding that from public display (and yet the quality of their posts gives them away.) Yes, there are outliers like Adiuvo and whoever else is T1/T2 and doesn't display their tier.

That's not the point. The point is that people are hiding their tier and making laughably uninformed statements about game balance that could be heard and implemented by the equally oblivious devs.

Psst, Hey kids...wanna buy some Tier 1?
100% pure from the get go, this EXP bar has never fallen below the highest standard


Yours for only 5 payments of the next available mech packs!

[Siriothrax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 May 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Funny thing is, I don't see any major correlation because I see the same irrational drivel from tier 1 players as well, tiers are not an assurance of an understanding of the game and I have seen non-tier 1 players actually have a better understanding than some tier 1s on these very forums.

Huehuehue.

Edited by Siriothrax, 20 May 2016 - 05:03 PM.