17 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

It's obvious that the reward system is still a function of the Paulconomy (even if Paul is claiming he wasn't responsible for that, it's the nickname I'll keep running until it's completely "fixed").

MC gains are a joke, and not even worth a discussion, especially if you're a part of a bigger unit. For a smaller unit, it makes little sense to attempt it unless there isn't an opposition (or a weak one that is).

So, based on a previous post (based on an idea to provide rewards thru participation - a "pool of rewards"), I wanted to get the ball rolling on this.

The point of FW is to win, obviously, but the gains of winning a planet is disproportionate to the effort spent. You might gain 1m C-bills per drop.. if you're good and are running premium time, but you are very likely to commit to at least 4 successful Invasion drops (approximately 2 hours worth, depending on how effective you are) before you make realistic headway into winning the planet (it's self-evident since every iteration of CW), so your time thru commitment needs to be rewarded

Units getting MC are a good idea, except the distribution point is just a futile effort in giving away MC in the most inefficient, Paulconomic fashion. You might as well have done that awful event, getting 100MC for 30 Invasion drops, or 60 Scouting drops. Man, that's just great... 1.5 MC per drop. Wow. I mean, I could get more free stuff in other games that are far less painful, but hey, whatever.

Now, we also have to consider the population as a whole... in terms of overall activity. I know there's also a section of players that dedicate to FW (I dunno why, but they exist), so this needs to be rewarded in kind just as well.

Those are 3 components listed above that need addressing.

So, here's my basic idea to reward everyone that participates, but in a way that should cater to every type (to some degree, mostly smaller units, dedicated FW players - ideally trying to foster group play through the TS hub).


For every person participating in FW between 2 factions (you are guaranteed 1 attack lane, but multiple defenses depending on how the matchups occur), they are part of a pool.

Winning faction:
200m for the first 100 players, +2m per player after the first 100
Losing faction:
100m for the first 100 players, +1m per player after the first 100

In times of low population, the gains received indirectly increase (because a smaller population means you get more money through the split).

So, the more people that play, the greater the pool. Of course, this is dissected even more...

Your portion of gains is directly proportional to participation, especially winning:
+1 token per Invasion win
+.4 token per Scout win
+.5 token per Invasion loss
+.2 token per Scout loss

Basically, your time commitment for the more important game (Invasion) directly controls the value. Scouting holds a value, but you'd need to commit twice at much effort in succeeding (time spent involved).

The more tokens you gain, the more of the pool you get. So, the guy who spends 1 Invasion drop will inevitably get less than one that spent the majority of their time doing CW.


For units, MC will still be rewarded, but isn't strictly given to the winning unit. This is ONLY rewarded when winning a planet (on attack or defense).

1500MC shared for the first 5 units, +300MC per unit after the first 5

Unit FW activity dictates the MC gain, and technically there will be diminishing returns (Mercstar alone would gain, but still not worth that much considering the # of members involved).

500MC given to the unit tagging, +100MC additional per assisting unit after the first 5 units
The unit owning the planet gets the same flat bonus over 1 more ceasefire cycle (a reason to keep queuing post cease fire).

There's an incentive to be inclusive here, and I know there's a swath of 1-man units, but they will unlikely get most of it by nature. I mean, I guess there could be abuse if you have enough people involved with alt accounts, but consider that it's still dictated by the # of units participating and using the same token system (or whatever PGI is currently using to determine who wins the planet)


The only issue that I can think of is ghost drops or "limited FW activity" to abuse said rewards.

What would need to happen here is to have a "minimum" # of drops and/or time like 3 hours worth, or 13 complete Invasion drops (the # you would need to complete getting all pieces uncontested, but ghost drops don't count), whichever comes first.


I don't think this plan is perfect, nor it is flawless, but the reality is that there is currently no real incentive to queue up since structurally, there's no real gain (15 MC per cycle is peanuts) for those that participate.


The only way to succeed is to win, and working as a team should be rewarded. There's enough "personal wealth" in the match when you are carrying, but success is determined by everyone involved.

I don't expect solo players to become group/team players overnight, but the more they continue to group up like it was the solo queue, it's not going to pay out well. The reward system needs to focus on players willing to put in the time and the effort to put a good drop deck, but above all else... work as a team.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 May 2016 - 05:25 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

First off, if you aren't having fun just playing, why are you here?

Second, if they give away everything via MC rewards, why buy anything with cash?

[Deathlike]

Nick Makiaveli, on 22 May 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

First off, if you aren't having fun just playing, why are you here?

Because, telling PGI the overall feeling of FW itself is not just a one person's sentiment. It's self-evident by the queues themselves. If the mode is fun, more people would be playing it. In business.. if some specific item is selling, and everything else isn't... it's better to focus on the things that work well and/or at least attempt to fix what isn't popular or broken. The fact that even a year after after CW debuted, the problems the lingered from the beginning have not really been addressed (ghost drops, rewards, purpose, the gameplay modes themselves) and it starts to become a really bad sunk cost... primarily because the changes were too slow, or not well encompassing enough to change how people feel about the mode. There's no real reason to play FW on its own merits.

The numbers don't lie.

Quote

Second, if they give away everything via MC rewards, why buy anything with cash?

There's a point where you if you give nothing, there's no reason to buy more MC at random. There are plenty of F2P games where getting some free stuff is motivation to buy MC w/o need to bribe anyone.

Using World of Tanks as a model for pricing (pretty much said by PGI themselves) while having a tiny portion of the same playerbase size, does not compute to a long term successful plan.

[Randy Poffo]

Deathlike, on 22 May 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

Because, telling PGI the overall feeling of FW itself is not just a one person's sentiment. It's self-evident by the queues themselves. If the mode is fun, more people would be playing it. In business.. if some specific item is selling, and everything else isn't... it's better to focus on the things that work well and/or at least attempt to fix what isn't popular or broken. The fact that even a year after after CW debuted, the problems the lingered from the beginning have not really been addressed (ghost drops, rewards, purpose, the gameplay modes themselves) and it starts to become a really bad sunk cost... primarily because the changes were too slow, or not well encompassing enough to change how people feel about the mode. There's no real reason to play FW on its own merits.

You're missing his point. What I took him to be saying is that rewards aside if you're not having fun - if the game mode itself is such that it's not worth playing even if there were no rewards - then FW remains broken. And the appropriate response to that is to either fix the root cause (the thing that makes it not fun enough in its own right) or stop playing the game mode (as Russ said, "it's not for you"). Asking them to increase rewards to give you extra incentive to do things you wouldn't otherwise want to do does not sound like a game, it sounds like a job... and do you really need another job, is that what you log in for?

Rewards have a place in enhancing the experience, but they're not the root of anything and they don't make a game worthwhile. Hell I still play LoL to this day, and normal games of that have effectively no rewards - I don't need the IP - but the gameplay is fun. If as you're saying the core gameplay of this game mode is deeply broken and there's no reason to play it on its own merits - and I'm not inclined to disagree with you - why in the world do you think it would be a good idea to incentivize playing it?

[Deathlike]

Randy Poffo, on 22 May 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

You're missing his point. What I took him to be saying is that rewards aside if you're not having fun - if the game mode itself is such that it's not worth playing even if there were no rewards - then FW remains broken. And the appropriate response to that is to either fix the root cause (the thing that makes it not fun enough in its own right) or stop playing the game mode (as Russ said, "it's not for you"). Asking them to increase rewards to give you extra incentive to do things you wouldn't otherwise want to do does not sound like a game, it sounds like a job... and do you really need another job, is that what you log in for?

The rewards are better, but still garbage if you're not even a large unit actually winning games. There's plenty of faction units that try and help, but do they get rewarded? Nada. I mean, they'll occasionally get some (planets, and indirectly the MC that goes with it), but generally it's not even worthwhile for smaller units and dedicated FW players that actually bother to contribute.

Mind you, FW as a mode is boring and broken. I can play it, get bored easily, and move on to Quickplay or a different game. The rewards still need fixing, but the core game part really needs an overhaul. I simply don't think PGI is going to spent enough quality time on it. I gave up trying to do that.

Quote

Rewards have a place in enhancing the experience, but they're not the root of anything and they don't make a game worthwhile. Hell I still play LoL to this day, and normal games of that have effectively no rewards - I don't need the IP - but the gameplay is fun. If as you're saying the core gameplay of this game mode is deeply broken and there's no reason to play it on its own merits - and I'm not inclined to disagree with you - why in the world do you think it would be a good idea to incentivize playing it?

The thing about FW is that the reward system has to incentivize the idea of working together.

Part of the core issue with FW is that it teaches nothing for the solo player to actually work up to a faction hub, and play with the people there (joining a unit is optional, but usually ideal). Also, you want the other faction loyalists to feel like they are contributing to something, even if they don't win the grand prize (the MC payout for owning a planet) as their contribution IS worth of being rewarded.

The rewards as currently constituted do not reflect this... all you need is Mercstar to show up, you proceed to have little to no chance at the main rewards. There's no secondary reward.. you get the planet, or you get nothing else.

The way I'm structuring the rewards rewards participation (and success, ultimately) and even if you aren't the primary group responsible for turning the planet your way, at least you're getting something in return.


In order to actually breed a "community", you have to reward them properly. Gameplay obviously needs to be reworked, but I'm not going care about even trying for the 15MC a cycle gig.. it's just a wasted effort and doesn't even peak pique my interest as much as I don't give a crap about the mode. It only solidifies my decision making.

Yes, of course the only time to REALLY bother is when there's a FW event... but that's temporary and artificial. You need something organic and sustainable. Nothing in the rewards system offers that, and fixing the rewards in part helps with the kinds of issues that plagues this mode (obviously fixing the core FW component is more important, but it's still one of many things needing to be resolved).


When a really good Quick Play match is more rewarding than Scouting (and it happens enough to matter), you know there's something wrong with the reward system in FW.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 May 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Nick Makiaveli, on 22 May 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

First off, if you aren't having fun just playing, why are you here?

Second, if they give away everything via MC rewards, why buy anything with cash?

This squared.

It's math, so you know it's true!

[N0MAD]

Deathlike. you and many others here (by the looks of your Likes) still dont understand what motivates most, again Most players.
You seem to think its rewards or as some call it Care Bearing, that motivates them,, its not, most play games to enjoy them not the pixels rewards.
Dude you can offer people 100 million pixels to play a boring mediocre game and still...they wont play it.

[Deathlike]

N0MAD, on 22 May 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Deathlike. you and many others here (by the looks of your Likes) still dont understand what motivates most, again Most players.
You seem to think its rewards or as some call it Care Bearing, that motivates them,, its not, most play games to enjoy them not the pixels rewards.
Dude you can offer people 100 million pixels to play a boring mediocre game and still...they wont play it.

Rewards matter.

There was a point in time where Conquest wasn't really a thing, and part of it was that the rewards were garbage. While I don't entirely advocate for killing rewards to literally be applied to Conquest, it wasn't helping as that was literally the case (you'd be getting effectively half as much reward-wise on the killing side - before the change).

The mode itself still isn't very interesting, and there were some iterations of the mode (12v12 made them cap too slowly, Cap Accel didn't work for a long time, changing the rewards, voting, and the recent cap behavior change to focus on max cap).

I'm not saying the mode is great... it's still more or less the same deathmatch variation that it once was for the most part.

When Conquest was adjusted for more C-bills, I try to pick it every time I can. I still don't think it's a great mode.

You'd be surprised what rewards can do for a crap mode (and FW rewards in some cases are still lol bad, specifically the ones involving units that win a planet). I'd rather the mode not suck, but in the absence of putting effort in the mode (aka, what PGI is doing - nothing), rewards actually need to not suck.


It's not going to matter about fixing the mode if PGI doesn't recognize there actually is a problem.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 May 2016 - 04:51 PM.

[Randy Poffo]

Different play modes for different purposes. FW is something that is supposed to provide the pull for long-term play, long after you no longer need the in game currency.

In the state that FW is currently in, you could triple the rewards and I would not play it. You could make the rewards 10 times higher. You could make the rewards a billion c-bills a game. Still wouldn't play it.

You might play it for a little while, as long as you needed the c-bills. But then you wouldn't play it either. How does that fix anything? Then what do you do?

[Deathlike]

Randy Poffo, on 22 May 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

Different play modes for different purposes. FW is something that is supposed to provide the pull for long-term play, long after you no longer need the in game currency.

In the state that FW is currently in, you could triple the rewards and I would not play it. You could make the rewards 10 times higher. You could make the rewards a billion c-bills a game. Still wouldn't play it.

You might play it for a little while, as long as you needed the c-bills. But then you wouldn't play it either. How does that fix anything? Then what do you do?

This requires PGI to provide "a sense of purpose" for FW (let alone reworking the modes).

That requires work and effort.


I'm only trying to solve the only obvious problem with rewards... a thing PGI would more likely to "adjust" than anything else. Obviously they are just as likely to ignore this like everything else, but that's the only thing that comes to mind when I see rewards in this game. It doesn't cultivate what it is supposed to.

It doesn't mean the entire mode as a whole isn't broken/boring/uninteresting/purposeless/*insert your description for CW here*. I just want to make it suck less for others... but whatever.

[N0MAD]

Deathlike, on 22 May 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

It doesn't mean the entire mode as a whole isn't broken/boring/uninteresting/purposeless/*insert your description for CW here*. I just want to make it suck less for others... but whatever.

No doubt you are trying to help but you are barking up the wrong tree.
I hardly play any more and i have 10s of millions $, lots MC and years worth of premium (im sure most players have), so offering me more pixels well,, no thanks.
CW is just bad has been from its hurried inception, scrap it give us a game lobby, problem fixed.
Nothing else will fix it and certainly nothing PGI is able to do will, the past years of CW development shows you this.
Let it go bro, calling it mediocre is exaggerating its quality.

[Deathlike]

N0MAD, on 22 May 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

Let it go bro, calling it mediocre is exaggerating its quality.

That correct term you are looking for is "minimally viable".

Frankly, it's closer to "bare minimum" than AAA.

[Willard Phule]

One reward this thing definitely needs, especially if they're not going to do anything about the queues in FW, is to reward us for sitting around in queue for 20-30 minutes waiting for a team, then another 20 minutes for either a ghost drop or noobstomp.

Give us some LP or Cbills everytime you "transfer pilot and mechs" or something. Make it worth sitting around for an hour.

[Adamski]

I was thinking a simple system would be:
Every tagged planet in a faction generates MC for the "Faction"

The "Faction" then distributes the MC to Units according to Win / Loss ratio's on the Leaderboard, with a minimum of 10 games to be eligible.

1st Place receives ~50% of the "Faction" MC pool
2nd Place receives ~25%
3rd Place receives ~15%
4th Place receives ~10%
5th Place receives any rounding leftovers.

Any faction where Top Tier teams congregate, will have each team receiving substantially less MC depending on their rank. This encourages Units to spread across the factions.

This system also encourages the dedicated & skilled to break off from larger units to form their own elite unit to increase their rewards.
It also rewards Units who recruit players and help them learn the ropes and increase their win ratio.

Possibly implement a base level of MC for factions that are being swarmed on multiple sides, to encourage units to remain there. (Could also change it so that the majority of the MC is from the base reward, and additional planets add only a small amount, depends on how much the faction border move and what the values are to determine which system would be better).

Undetermined if Mercenaries should have a separate pool & leaderboard, or be included in the faction they are contracted to.

Edited by Adamski, 23 May 2016 - 05:15 PM.

[Bullseye69]

As someone that has limited time and not very good in few, and earn very little the mc rewards are notmy main concern. For the time invested and the wait how about this increase the xp earned from faction war to double the amount and I mean the reward that goes to the reputation status for Marc or house unit the one you unlock for the rewards. Such as Steiner loyalty.

Just muy 2 cents.

[Willard Phule]

Bullseye69, on 23 May 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

As someone that has limited time and not very good in few, and earn very little the mc rewards are notmy main concern. For the time invested and the wait how about this increase the xp earned from faction war to double the amount and I mean the reward that goes to the reputation status for Marc or house unit the one you unlock for the rewards. Such as Steiner loyalty.

Just muy 2 cents.

Still doesn't compensate for a 20 minute wait to just get a team together, then another timed 20 minute wait for a ghost drop or roflstomp.

[Bullseye69]

Agreed but it a start. I wish there was a way to get more people on the planets when the population is limited, like if it below a certain amount the choices get less or everyone drops on the planet and xp is credited to there faction. Use this till more people or playing the game.

Also I would really like a stock mech fw is vs is only planet you pick the stock trial mechs and battle with them make them champion or special or heroes. I have found the best drops for me where is vs is more chassis variety more brawling since the range advantage of clan mechs gone.

I know it wishful thinking on my part but like I said the most fun I have had was a few is vs is battle and they were knock down drag close fight everyone was having a blast and the payout was good.

[Zolaz]

Wasting your time is the new Paulaconomy.