61 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a few simple questions. What would have happened, in TT, if the Battle of Tukayyid was lost to the Clans? How would that shape the future of the IS? What would the timeline look like?

[DrxAbstract]

Go back even further and ask what would have happened if Comstar hadn't broken their vow of neutrality and not shared sensitive Clan communications and intel with the IS.

[Y E O N N E]

cazidin, on 28 December 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a few simple questions. What would have happened, in TT, if the Battle of Tukayyid was lost to the Clans? How would that shape the future of the IS? What would the timeline look like?

The Clans would have taken Terra, and then whoever got there first would have been promptly annihilated as all IS forces suddenly converge on one spot, no-holds-barred.

Wolf should have let the Falcons take it, tbqh. Then they could have gotten rid of that slime by simply not lifting a finger.

[Bombast]

Nothing good.

There's basically two ways it could go down. The first is that ComStar holds up there end of the bargain. They bow out to the Clans, who go on to take Terra. And then the infighting begins as they the Clans start their own little Star League 2.0 by doing exactly what Star League classic did - Spend every waking moment trying to undermine each other, regardless of who 'deserves' to be the ilClan.

The Clans declare that they've won the Inner Sphere and the Successor State's belong to them. The Successor States laugh in their face and fight back, dirty. As the Clan's fall apart internally, and the Successor States grind themselves apart against the Clans, who now control the HPG network, the Dark Age is jump started decades early. Whee

The other way it could go is that Focht could laugh in the Clan's face and have told them all to go **** themselves after losing Tukayyid. What remains of the ComGuard turns what's left of ComStar space into a meat grinder. The Clans persist, but are slowed enough for the Successor states to get their **** together and join in. Terras turned into a colossal pile of rubble. Internal ComStar infighting continues as well, and eventually enough infrastructure damage is done that we're back to the Dark Ages again.

Basically, no one wins, ever.

Edited by Bombast, 28 December 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

TL;DR: the Clans are physically incapable of carrying on a long-term war. They do not have the resources, infrastructure, or social structure for it. The IS would have ground them to a pulp either way if that war dragged on, and they would have probably brought nuclear weapons into play, too.

[SpiralFace]

DrxAbstract, on 28 December 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Go back even further and ask what would have happened if Comstar hadn't broken their vow of neutrality and not shared sensitive Clan communications and intel with the IS.

Or go even further where they broke their vow of neutrality by attempting to directly undermine the advancements of the Fed Com during the 4th sucession war with the interdiction, and then DIRECTLY helped the Draconis combine by providing starleague war materials for the defense against The Fox in the war of 3039.

[Y E O N N E]

Trial of Annihilation on ComStar, pl0x.

[cazidin]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

TL;DR: the Clans are physically incapable of carrying on a long-term war. They do not have the resources, infrastructure, or social structure for it. The IS would have ground them to a pulp either way if that war dragged on, and they would have probably brought nuclear weapons into play, too.

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Would nuclear weapons, orbital bombardment, etc be used against the Clans, and how would they respond? I want to see if we can have a truly in-depth analysis of how this would play out.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

TL;DR: the Clans are physically incapable of carrying on a long-term war. They do not have the resources, infrastructure, or social structure for it. The IS would have ground them to a pulp either way if that war dragged on, and they would have probably brought nuclear weapons into play, too.

If the other Clans hadn't been so hoity toity about our Merchant caste, the war effort would have been a lot smoother in regards to resources from Clan Diamond Shark ships. But noooooo, all Freebirths are scum and can't be trusted. Smoke Jaguar deserved everything it got.

[Y E O N N E]

cazidin, on 28 December 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Would nuclear weapons, orbital bombardment, etc be used against the Clans, and how would they respond? I want to see if we can have a truly in-depth analysis of how this would play out.

The Clans would probably respond in kind, but the numbers are in the IS favor.

[MischiefSC]

The Clans would have spread slavery, caste systems, fascism and eugenics around along with the occasional cultural purge until everyone wiped them out. Sociopathic fascist nations have risen up a few times in history and get burned down by the rest of humanity.

From a BV perspective the IS would have eventually learned you just swarm Clans with hordes of vehicles for the same BV as a Clan Binary, swamping them in TACs.

Stupidest thing the IS did was fielding mechs against the clownshoes OP Clan tech mechs. Bad use of BV. Mines, traps and vehicles all day every day. Suicide swarms of Cheetah fighters to ram Clan warships. Almost 200 of them for the cost of a single Clan Aegis warship.

Clans were never going to win. It's why the US helped turn WWII - too many people, too much raw resources. German plans and weapons and for much of the war Japanese planes and weapons were better - we just had a bigger supply of people and materiel and eventually caught up in tech too.

The only thing losing Tukkayyid did to the Clans was prolong their inevitable collapse.

[Y E O N N E]

I do like how the Clans turned on each other and went into full-on IS-style warfare during the Wars of Reaving.

Ha ha, suckers.

[El Bandito]

On advantage Clans enjoyed in 3050 was their warships. Clans got buttloads of them, and technically can spam orbital bombardment, when situation becomes desperate enough. IS had very few warships, mostly under Comstar control.

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

I do like how the Clans turned on each other and went into full-on IS-style warfare during the Wars of Reaving.

Ha ha, suckers.

I hated that part. Wish it was retconned.

#bringbackclanbloodspirit

Edited by El Bandito, 28 December 2016 - 07:17 PM.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 28 December 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

On advantage Clans enjoyed in 3050 was their warships. Clans got buttloads of them, and technically can spam orbital bombardment, when situation becomes desperate enough.

Disgusting Smoke Jaguar philosophy of "If we can't massacre them in their beds, we'll just fly off and bomb them". Guess civilians and the Yakuza are too powerful for the Clan that emphasizes might makes right, eh?

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 28 December 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Disgusting Smoke Jaguar philosophy of "If we can't massacre them in their beds, we'll just fly off and bomb them". Guess civilians and the Yakuza are too powerful for the Clan that emphasizes might makes right, eh?

On the contrary, there is no need for "honorable" Jaguar warriors to dirty their hands on civil disobedience and small groups of saboteurs. When you exterminate a nest full of cockroaches, it is far better to spray the area with pesticide, than to try to whack them one at a time.

The Jags' ruthlessly simplistic approach for complicated issue can already be seen in the Londerholm Revolt.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 December 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 28 December 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

On the contrary, there is no need for "honorable" Jaguar warriors to dirty their hands on civil disobedience and small groups of saboteurs. When you exterminate a nest full of cockroaches, it is far better to spray the area with pesticide, than to try to whack them one at a time.

The sad thing is, I know people IRL that genuinely think that should be how things should actually be fought. So I always have trouble telling if someone is trying to RP or is actually just despicable. Bleeeeech.

[cazidin]

RestosIII, on 28 December 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

The sad thing is, I know people IRL that genuinely think that should be how things should actually be fought. So I always have trouble telling if someone is trying to RP or is actually just despicable. Bleeeeech.

Nukes *aren't* the solution to every world problem?

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 28 December 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

The sad thing is, I know people IRL that genuinely think that should be how things should actually be fought. So I always have trouble telling if someone is trying to RP or is actually just despicable. Bleeeeech.

I'm just letting you to see things from another perspective. Morals are subjective. Overwhelming strength is what truly mattered in BT universe, be it on the Clan Side, or on the IS side.

cazidin, on 28 December 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Nukes *aren't* the solution to every world problem?

Apparently not, as the Wobbies found out later on. Maybe there weren't enough nukes.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 December 2016 - 08:17 PM.

[RestosIII]

cazidin, on 28 December 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Nukes *aren't* the solution to every world problem?

I have family members that legitimately, not joking or being hyperbolic on purpose, have said that we should just nuke the Middle East. So I don't trust anyone I meet to not be insane any more.

[Snowbluff]

RestosIII, on 28 December 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

The sad thing is, I know people IRL that genuinely think that should be how things should actually be fought. So I always have trouble telling if someone is trying to RP or is actually just despicable. Bleeeeech.

This is both naive and unethical. If you can remove a target without risking any of your men, that's a victory. Of course, if you have other objectives, it's hazier, but an orbital bombardment would be the right choice for the Jags (who don't care about collateral or hearts and minds) in that situation.