156 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 May 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

We all know you're lore hating homewreckers!

Especially those within SJR, lets just say we have a special love for Wobblies and the jihad era (just full of blasphemy I know).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 May 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[pbiggz]

OP suggests nerfing clan UACs.

OP is dumb.

[Ace Selin]

Phra, on 20 May 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Have you actually tried it, or just being the usual forum warrior?

With a 375XL filled with DHS, totaling at 15, you can doubletap four all the **** you want on anything but Mordor and Hot Desert.

THAT, is the problem.

Lawl, thats not correct at all.

The Kodiak seems to be somewhat squashy for an assault, especially compared to my Atlas and the Kodiak 3 runs very hot if you double tap repeatedly, making you vulnerable for anyone brave enough to rush you. Ive been doing it in my Jenner IIC and have been getting many Kodiak 3 kills by waiting till i know they are hot and unleashing on them when they are indeed vulnerable.

[VaudeVillain]

The UACs should be brought to single shots and jamming disables the weapon for 1 minute or more. The 2nd shot was meant as a finisher, not continuous use. The benefit of UACs over ACs was increased range. Also ER and Large Pulse Laser heat need to be put back at their proper level.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aresye, on 20 May 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Show some respect to your future Div A comp player pls...

Aresye, on 20 May 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

I know. I was building off that.

What, did you think I was serious?

[Targetloc]

Alistair Winter, on 20 May 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

From experience, this is probably what PGI will do. Remember how they dealt with Timber Wolves and Stormcrows? They made global nerfs to Clan lasers.

"Oops, looks like we also nerfed the Summoner, as a consequence. The Summoner was a top tier heavy mech, right? We good?"

I would not be surprised at all if they nerfed the UAC10 and UAC20, and accidentally pushed the Highlander IIC and Shadow Cat further down into the mud. PGI has long been more concerned with balancing the top mechs between factions (e.g. Timber Wolf vs Black Knight) than worrying about the bottom mechs (e.g. Black Knight vs Summoner)

The saddest thing was they came so close to getting it right when they added those negative laser quirks to the Scrow and TBR, but still messed it up.

If they would just put the quirks on the weapons themselves they would have got the intended effect across all mechs, without adding the stupid side-effect of nerfing builds that weren't boating, and forcing people to rebuild their mechs to try to avoid having unused hardpoints.

It's the simplest idea, and it makes logical sense.

1 or 2 medium lasers, your power conduits can handle just fine. But if you fire 6 or 7 within 0.5 seconds of eachother, it's too much drain so it adds an extra 5% beam duration and heat (or damage reduction) per laser... instead of per hardpoint.

ACs, UACs and missiles also make perfect sense. Think what the ammo feeds must look like inside that mech if you have 4 huge guns all chained to every single one of your 7-8 ammo bins... it would look like a nightmare Rube Goldberg machine. Make it so for every AC you fire simultaneously the reload time take X% longer, and if you double-tap UACs, there's a higher chance of jamming because your ammo feeds look like an 8-way cloverleaf at rush hour.

It's intuitive and easy to understand for any player. The bigger the alpha, the longer it takes to recycle, on a linear scale.

For mechs that are forced to boat a single type of weapon like the Nova, they can help counter it a little by giving them quirks that reduce the inherent penalties of using large numbers of the same gun (but not completely cancel them out).

This would also work out for mechs like the Summoner that can't boat because they don't have enough of the same weapon to degrade performance.

[Gyrok]

Targetloc, on 20 May 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

The saddest thing was they came so close to getting it right when they added those negative laser quirks to the Scrow and TBR, but still messed it up.

If they would just put the quirks on the weapons themselves they would have got the intended effect across all mechs, without adding the stupid side-effect of nerfing builds that weren't boating, and forcing people to rebuild their mechs to try to avoid having unused hardpoints.

It's the simplest idea, and it makes logical sense.

1 or 2 medium lasers, your power conduits can handle just fine. But if you fire 6 or 7 within 0.5 seconds of eachother, it's too much drain so it adds an extra 5% beam duration and heat (or damage reduction) per laser... instead of per hardpoint.

ACs, UACs and missiles also make perfect sense. Think what the ammo feeds must look like inside that mech if you have 4 huge guns all chained to every single one of your 7-8 ammo bins... it would look like a nightmare Rube Goldberg machine. Make it so for every AC you fire simultaneously the reload time take X% longer, and if you double-tap UACs, there's a higher chance of jamming because your ammo feeds look like an 8-way cloverleaf at rush hour.

It's intuitive and easy to understand for any player. The bigger the alpha, the longer it takes to recycle, on a linear scale.

For mechs that are forced to boat a single type of weapon like the Nova, they can help counter it a little by giving them quirks that reduce the inherent penalties of using large numbers of the same gun (but not completely cancel them out).

This would also work out for mechs like the Summoner that can't boat because they don't have enough of the same weapon to degrade performance.

This is a terrible idea completely...

You realize that IS has been better than clans for a while, right?

The meta is SRMs and Dakka mostly now...though lasers a relevant, only IS laser builds are relevant because IS lasers > clan lasers (read: duration differences).

The KDK is a good clan assault mech. It is strong, but not dominating, or even overpowered.

[Targetloc]

Gyrok, on 20 May 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

This is a terrible idea completely...

You realize that IS has been better than clans for a while, right?

The meta is SRMs and Dakka mostly now...though lasers a relevant, only IS laser builds are relevant because IS lasers > clan lasers (read: duration differences).

The KDK is a good clan assault mech. It is strong, but not dominating, or even overpowered.

It would apply to the IS as well. And SRMs.

It would balance out some of the crazy IS laser builds since what makes them better is their much shorter duration and higher ghost heat weapon limit. They burst higher over a shorter time.

Everyone agrees that the clan ER Large is a situational/mediocre weapon because of it's long duration. If we didn't stop people from firing 3-4 large pulse lasers at once, but make it so their duration goes up the more you fire simultaneously then it evens them out. If firing 3 upped them from the current 0.67 duration to 1.05 or 1.15 seconds like the er medium it's still a pretty effective burst, but there would be a trade-offs versus firing in 2 smaller groups. (or carrying 2 different types of weapons)

[Gentleman Reaper]

pbiggz, on 20 May 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

OP suggests nerfing clan UACs.

OP is dumb.

UACs in general need to be re-imagined, not just the clan's,
UACs in general need to be re-imagined, not just the clan's,
UACs in general need to be re-imagined, not just the clan's,
UACs in general need to be re-imagined, not just the clan's

If you don't have the attention span to scroll down two comments and then proceed to insult me, don't even bother replying to this topic.

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 20 May 2016 - 07:16 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Gyrok, on 20 May 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Umm, lots of IS tech is outright superior to most clan tech.

Evidently you missed a lot.

I'm curious, how would you balance IS vs Clan tech?

[Davers]

Mystere, on 20 May 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Have people thought about using:

• drop weight (i.e. logistics, dynamically determined by current state of IS map)
  
• numbers (i.e. logistics, reinforcements, dynamically determined by current state of IS map)
  
• rearm and repair costs (i.e. logistics)
  
• different/dynamic victory conditions (again possibly determined by current state of IS map)
  
• different/dynamic game modes (again possibly determined by current state of IS map)
  
• reinforcements (possibly via a ticket system)
  
• equipment differences (i.e. range, networking capability, etc.)
  
• campaign structure (What campaign? )

But no, let's just keep the same old one-dimensional balancing system.


The main idea is to provide real depth in game play.

Oh! But I forgot. ESports is now priority numero uno! Everyone must therefore bow to the eSports GODS.



<Damn! Is there something wrong with the forum search function? I know I've got more but cannot remember them all. )

PGI is not going to do 'real balancing' by drop weight, since it might hurt mech sales. Same with R&R. PGI is pretty inept at game modes and victory conditions. At the end of the day this is a 12 v 12 shooter, not a battletech war simulator, so one dimensional balancing is all PGI can do.

Shalune, on 20 May 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Starcraft
Counter-Strike
Street Fighter 2 (hell every fighting game ever)
DotA (and again, the entire genre)

I'll stop there not because I've run out asymmetrical competitive video games, but because I've run out of video games of any description played at the competitive level that those are.

I'm confused. How is Street Fighter 2 asymmetrical? Isn't it a 1v1 game?

DotA- Are you confusing 'champion roles' with asymmetrical game play?

Starcraft IS a prime example of an asymmetrical game that is purely balanced by DPS and unit cost. But it doesn't really work in a FPS with one life per game. I doubt many people would want to be a zergling.

Counter-Strike- Is it really asymmetrical because of different weapons? If so, can't we claim MWO is an asymmetrical game as well?

[Gyrok]

Gentleman Reaper, on 20 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

I'm curious, how would you balance IS vs Clan tech?

There is actually a lengthy post on the forums here about it.

I believe it was titled "a case for timeline skip". If you search that up top in the search bar, you should find it. That post outlines exactly what I would do to fix it.

[Trauglodyte]

Perhaps the UAC/10 and UAC/20 needs the cGauss Rifle treatment where you can't fire more than 2x at a time. The UAC/20 already has it through Ghost Heat, which needs to go away. Quite frankly, though, that doesn't change much even if you make that change.

[Gyrok]

Trauglodyte, on 21 May 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Perhaps the UAC/10 and UAC/20 needs the cGauss Rifle treatment where you can't fire more than 2x at a time. The UAC/20 already has it through Ghost Heat, which needs to go away. Quite frankly, though, that doesn't change much even if you make that change.

UAC20 cannot fire more than 1 at a time, and UAC10 has ghost heat on more than 2 at once.

UAC10 build for KDK3 is absurdly hot, 10s and 5s will end up being the real build anyone serious is using.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 21 May 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

UAC20 cannot fire more than 1 at a time, and UAC10 has ghost heat on more than 2 at once.

UAC10 build for KDK3 is absurdly hot, 10s and 5s will end up being the real build anyone serious is using.

Yup. Too many people afraid of a bogeyman that isn't even the real monster. Doesn't help certain other forum voices have people convinced that it can move like a bloody 50 tonner, too.

*smh*

Hysteria, much?

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 May 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Yup. Too many people afraid of a bogeyman that isn't even the real monster. Doesn't help certain other forum voices have people convinced that it can move like a bloody 50 tonner, too.

*smh*

Hysteria, much?

Yeah, mcgral specifically, is comparing a clan medium with no quirks and a low engine cap to a max possible engine cap 100 ton assault mech with agility quirks.

Want to bet we could compare the SCR agility to the KDK agility and the SCR blows it away?

It seems he has bought into the "poor IS is under powered" cult and started drinking the kool-aid.

Edited by Gyrok, 21 May 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[Zordicron]

Gentleman Reaper, on 19 May 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

It's generally accepted that the KDK-3 is the most powerful Kodiak because of UAC boating, but stick on a normal AC or an LB-X and it's even if not worse than the rest. When you have 4 UAC-10s, the number of them makes up for the jam chance, so it means that it will rarely stop firing if it's not being fired upon.

Make UACs have a longer cooldown if you double-tap, so you choose between burst-DPS or sustained DPS. Anyone have their own ideas?

How about we just wait for this, which will probably nerf grenade boated CUAC's? THEN we can open a discussion about how we want to BUFF the UAC's in general because double tapping them/jam mechanic won't be balanced against double power draw the double click causes.

Edited by Zordicron, 21 May 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 21 May 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yeah, mcgral specifically, is comparing a clan medium with no quirks and a low engine cap to a max possible engine cap 100 ton assault mech with agility quirks.

Want to bet we could compare the SCR agility to the KDK agility and the SCR blows it away?

It seems he has bought into the "poor IS is under powered" cult and started drinking the kool-aid.

SCR is at 126 VS 105


I'm comparing a real, commonly used build against another.


Sorry you and Bishop disregard things that fail to meet your opinions.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 21 May 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yeah, mcgral specifically, is comparing a clan medium with no quirks and a low engine cap to a max possible engine cap 100 ton assault mech with agility quirks.

Want to bet we could compare the SCR agility to the KDK agility and the SCR blows it away?

It seems he has bought into the "poor IS is under powered" cult and started drinking the kool-aid.

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

SCR is at 126 VS 105


I'm comparing a real, commonly used build against another.


Sorry you and Bishop disregard things that fail to meet your opinions.

He also ignores other Assaults, like the AWS 9M with it's 121º/s twist rate, VTR-DS with 140º/s, BLR-2C with 119º/s, Misery with a 105º/s, Boars Head at 120º/s, KGC-000B siting at a 100º/s (with a 325), AS7-S w 110º/s (350, 105º with 325)

Gargoyle Prime? 140º/s
Warhawk Prime: 100º/s
Executioner: 110º/s


Suddenly the 110-115º twist rate on the KDK doesn't seem so out of place.

Especially when compared against real Mediums, like the Cicada pulling a 190º/s, HBK at 145º, Crab at 150º, YLW 155º, etc.

All it's realyl doing is showing that the IICs got shafted (something we already knew, though Jenny and Hunch II are still decent enough), not that the KDK agility is especially uber. Especially since it's a huge target with most DPS firepower. Oh, and has a Huge terrain profile meaning...ya know, hills, 45º pebbles? Comes to a dead crawl. Something actual Mediums don't.

So...you were saying?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 May 2016 - 02:31 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Looks like you're omitting more that doesn't suit your story than we are.