285 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

MischiefSC, on 22 May 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Again, most the people pugging in FW have unit tags. They didn't have the time or inclination to build a group first, still wanted to play and almost certainly wanted to play with other group-minded players and not the generally agreed upon nightmare of a bunch of 'i do what I want' rambo players.

Your system offers absolutely nothing to benefit unit players. Nothing. All it does is force me to wait until I get a group built before I can play FW or be consigned to a matchmaker-less QP environment to try and artificially inflate solo queue populations.

The solo queue would have worked as designed if people had gone to the attack queue. Players would rather make a solo unit and play with unit players in the unit queue than elect of their own volition to get in the attack queue and draw Freelancers. If unit players had really wanted to play in that environment they could have dropped tags and done so. Nobody did, the opposite happened.

I get that grouping up is no big deal in NA primetime in FRR. Tell you what, why don't you make an alt and go play at 4AM in Wolf and then don't play FW unless you group up.

The only outcome of your system, the only outcome at all, is less populous times go bone dry empty and the exact same people who were in solo queue before will be in it this time refusing to get in the same attack lanes to build drops and a ton of us, everyone who actually wants to play with teamwork in a team game, all the people who've joined units for a reason but happen to be playing at a time or a situation where we don't want to spend 30 minutes trying to get grouped up before we play FW... all of us would pretty much just leave because playing in solo queue is literally 10x worse than even the worst QP experience.

As long as Recruitment fee's remain in effect, then players cannot play both casual FW matches while solo AND remain in a unit of friends for when they want to play a more organized FW system.

If there was a SOLO / GROUP split, then you would see a lot more interest from players that usually don't play FW, because they could drop in a match without worrying about playing against a premade 12 man. A more active SOLO FW queue would reduce wait times, making it more viable.

[Monodominant]

Danjo San, on 22 May 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

No they do not need to be split, I have no issues with effective teams. I just think units of more than 48 members are too large

I wrote another post which you ignored and didnt answer, asking as a newbie why are big units so bad. You can say they suck up all the players but thats a player choice. MS didnt force me to join MS, I wanted to, had some guys I knew and joined. Also, MS doesnt drop fifteen 12 man and kill everyone... they drop 2-3. Something your 40 man unit can also do since you claimed they are always on, when you are on. SWOL where I was before with their 400 players often didnt even drop a single 12 man on a given night or at most dropped 12... in their IS side they dropped usually none, some times one and often a half-team.

That said a question... why 48? Why this arbitrary number? You said its 4 dropships but so what?

Why should it be 4? Maybe it should just be 1. Cap units at 12. Thats how many you need for a 12 man and that's it. Sounds legit.

Edited by Monodominant, 22 May 2016 - 11:40 PM.

[Armando]

Adamski, on 22 May 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

The "system" is broken, because it rewards larger units more than smaller units.

MercStar "exploits" the system, by remaining as large as they possibly can, and even having a second recruiting unit that will follow them around, to keep as much of the organized population in the same faction as possible.

It is PGIs fault that the "system" is broken, because they had Leaderboards RIGHT THERE, to reward units that have better win ratio's. Instead, they tied the rewards to Planet Ownership, which is almost entirely determined by size & activity.

PGI has known about the problem for a long time, and their "fix" for it is the dumbest thing anyone could ever think of. (Recruitment Fees)

I would like to see a Three Tier contract system...

Tier 1: Faction Level Contracts -

These would be PGI controlled contract bonuses for mercenaries based on Faction Population numbers (the lower the Faction Population...the higher the rewards). Basically what we have now.

Tier 2: Unit Level Contracts -

These would be Unit Leader(s) / Commander(s) controlled contract bonuses for mercenaries based on what the Faction Unit wants from the Mercenary Unit. Can include taking planets for a Faction, defending planets for a Faction, Merc Unit training of Faction Unit members, Merc Unit training of Faction Unit commanders, etc.

Tier 3: Pilot Level Contracts -

These would be Faction/Freelancer Pilot controlled contract bonuses for mercenaries based on what the Faction/Freelancer Pilot wants from the Mercenary Unit. Can include all the same features as Unit Level Contract, but on a 'personal' level (specifically for 'training').

I would love to see a better way for Mercenaries to work with Loyalist, give the Loyalist a method to hire Mercenaries to do their bidding, and I think you will see a HUGE decline in the Loyalist vs Merc mess we have now.

---------------------------------------------------

Right now it might SEEM like the Mercs are the 'big bad guys' because it SEEMS like the Mercs are always against you. Don't get it twisted Loyalists....Merc units WANT to work for YOU, it's just PGI makes it so damn hard. (even worse with Phase 3 then before) for you guys to hire us.

I promise that if PGI can provide an outlet that rewards Mercs for working FOR Factions things will look a whole lot different.

Edited by Armando, 22 May 2016 - 11:57 PM.

[Koshirou]

Kwea, on 20 May 2016 - 09:42 PM, said:

You have no clue. Most nights we have 2-3 12 mans going, that's it. We have 360 members, with maybe 130 that play CW...scattered over 5 countries world-wide.

It's amazing how delusional you are in believing that having 2-3 full teams going throughout an attack phase qualifies for "that's it" and somehow shows you are not so big after all. How many units do you think can even form one full team for part of an attack phase?

[Koshirou]

The Nerf Bat, on 22 May 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

Quit getting your MS panties in a bunch.
4 of the top 8 merc units are Jade Falcon including Kcom Evil 228.

Precisely. This is the exact situation that PGI's population balancing mechanics were supposed to prevent, but didn't, because they are garbage.

[B0oN]

Hi, I´m a kitten .
I ´m looking for yarnballs to toy with .
I like it when my yarnballs have teeth and claws .

=

I want to play .
All of you .
For that to work some guys need to stop exhibiting antisocial behaviour and maybe lay off the paranoia when there is more than 3 opponents from the same unit on the screen .
If your unit cannot field 12men, then do as KCOM does and wreck face with only 4 .
If your unit can field 12men, then field them by all means .

Tl; Dr:

Kids, lets be honest here :
You´re ALL talking hypothetics here .
None of us can chance a single damn thing, so stop making others a scapegoat for PGI´s faulty designs to formulate a thriving and healthy environment for teamplaying in a niche mechwarrior game that has been near perfectly run into the ground due to laziness, greed and incompetence while making a good cash grab .

So some are putting the blame over there, others right there, the next guys are putting blame anywhere .

Elaborateness is good, but in this case it is as futile as screaming at your monitor ... it wont change a single nuance .
Pseudo-psychiatrist speech is also good, shows me you might have more than a joypad bouncing around in your head , still your degree in internet-psychiatrickery won´t change a nuance .

Point your fingers where they should be pointing at : P G I

[Armando]

Koshirou, on 22 May 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

It's amazing how delusional you are in believing that having 2-3 full teams going throughout an attack phase qualifies for "that's it" and somehow shows you are not so big after all. How many units do you think can even form one full team for part of an attack phase?

First off 2-3 full teams of guys that win .7% of their matches does what again? You act like having a lot of numbers is some auto-win button....it is 2-3x the chances to fail. 12 guys off the street in a team speak with no leader and have never worked together before is only SLIGHTLY better than 12 guys off the street who are using in game speak (if any better at all).

Those 2-3 full teams still have to WIN to be effective. That takes coordination, that takes practice, that takes time, that takes selflessness, that takes a TEAM to pull off.

I have said it before, don't hate the players who can pull it off....hire them. Can't beat em....pay them to beat your enemies instead of you. Right now, PGI is making it hard for Factions to 'hire' Mercs...there isn't even an in game option. The only way to negotiate a contract is by good old fashion negotiation. Which [-MS-] is open/willing to do for anyone/unit/faction interested in pulling up a chair to the negotiation table.

Edited by Armando, 23 May 2016 - 12:15 AM.

[KinLuu]

Armando, on 23 May 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

I have said it before, don't hate the players who can pull it off....hire them. Can't beat em....pay them to beat your enemies instead of you.

Or - what is more likely to happen - they stop playing CW.

[Contrex]

Best evidence to look at:

Faction Leaderboard.
Just watch how many games ms did. Compare it to the rest.

[Armando]

KinLuu, on 23 May 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

Or - what is more likely to happen - they stop playing CW.

Only because there is no option for Loyalist to have any real control over mercs, the mercs just come in, wreck face (or worse...get their faces wrecked), then leave.

Mercs have no way to work for Loyalists right now, there are no real incentives to pick one place over another so....you got what we had last week.

Loyalist are unhappy because Mercs come in and 'merc up the place' (and rightfully so with the current state of the game).
Mercs are unhappy because there are no real 'incentives' to pick on Faction over another (and rightfully so with the current state of the game).

Wouldn't it be nice if the Loyalist could HIRE the Mercs directly. Have CONTROL over who the mercs attach, even....gasp....receive training FROM mercs so the Loyalist Unit ranks are better prepared for life 'AM" (After Mercs).

Edited by Armando, 23 May 2016 - 12:30 AM.

[Armando]

Contrex, on 23 May 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

Best evidence to look at:

Faction Leaderboard.
Just watch how many games ms did. Compare it to the rest.

So the real complaint isn't that Merc Star is so big (no one even knows the name of the 485+ member merc unit because they win far less than they lose), or that they win so much (KCom and EVIL don't get the greef and they win far more often than -MS-), the real complaint is they PLAY to much.

Got it.

Well PGI fixed that for you real good.....no drops after the first 2-3 hours once cease fire ends and -MS- drops per day is at an all time low (NA West Cost players log in and find the attack queue at 100% and all defense queues at 0% and have nothing...and I do mean NOTHING to DO in CW...can NOT get a game at all). Tell me how are those non-existent queues is working out for everyone????

Edited by Armando, 23 May 2016 - 12:35 AM.

[KinLuu]

Armando, on 23 May 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Well PGI fixed that for you real good.....no drops after the first 2-3 hours once cease fire ends and -MS- drops per day is at an all time low (NA West Cost players log in and find the attack queue at 100% and all defense queues at 0% and have nothing...and I do mean NOTHING to DO in CW...can NOT get a game at all). Tell me how are those non-existent queues is working out for everyone????

And this is the reason why MS is getting so much hate currently.

[Koshirou]

Armando, on 23 May 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

So the real complaint isn't that Merc Star is so big (no one even knows the name of the 485+ member merc unit because they win far less than they lose), or that they win so much (KCom and EVIL don't get the greef and they win far more often than -MS-), the real complaint is they PLAY to much.

Duh.

Nominal unit size is irrelevant. That goes without saying. Active FP player base size is relevant - and it's larger for MS than for any other unit, as obvious from the stats. That "485 player unit" you refer to is not less relevant because their W/L ratio is so low - it is less relevant because their active participation (in terms of FP games played) is not even 1/10th that of MS*.
Neither is the ratio of nominal size to active participation relevant. KCom has 31 members. EVIL has 24. Compared to their unit sizes, they pull off far, far more games than MS (or any other unit, basically.)

* Counting MS-R here, by the way.

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 23 May 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

So the real complaint isn't that Merc Star is so big (no one even knows the name of the 485+ member merc unit because they win far less than they lose), or that they win so much (KCom and EVIL don't get the greef and they win far more often than -MS-), the real complaint is they PLAY to much.

Got it.

Well PGI fixed that for you real good.....no drops after the first 2-3 hours once cease fire ends and -MS- drops per day is at an all time low (NA West Cost players log in and find the attack queue at 100% and all defense queues at 0% and have nothing...and I do mean NOTHING to DO in CW...can NOT get a game at all). Tell me how are those non-existent queues is working out for everyone????

Yes you finally begin to understand where the problem lies.
Kcom get no hate because they have a reasonable size and are straightforward good players. Same goes for Evil. I have much respect for both of them. Plus they are not condescending. The other 485 Unit you keep referring to takes little interest in Cw in general, look at the numbers and figure out for yourself. Nevertheless they are too big as well and need to be split up as well...

[Contrex]

Armando, on 23 May 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

So the real complaint isn't that Merc Star is so big (no one even knows the name of the 485+ member merc unit because they win far less than they lose), or that they win so much (KCom and EVIL don't get the greef and they win far more often than -MS-), the real complaint is they PLAY to much.

Got it.

Well PGI fixed that for you real good.....no drops after the first 2-3 hours once cease fire ends and -MS- drops per day is at an all time low (NA West Cost players log in and find the attack queue at 100% and all defense queues at 0% and have nothing...and I do mean NOTHING to DO in CW...can NOT get a game at all). Tell me how are those non-existent queues is working out for everyone????

Okay, sorry, thought that there is some relation between the super high member count and the realy many games. But now after you are telling it, there cant be under any circumstances absolutely any relation between those numbers. MS has 300 members who dont play at all, but 60 who play more then the next 9 top mercunits together.

Sorry


We need to spend some money for MS and their 300 inactive players. 80% of this unit are not playing MWO anymore. PGI do something please

[Monodominant]

Why dont other units get more people then? Why is your unit 40 people Danjo? If having numbers is the key to winning (not skill) why dont you open your own gates and hire more?

Edit: Also, good job ignoring what I said once more

Edited by Monodominant, 23 May 2016 - 02:27 AM.

[Speedkermit]

You could split units up, but in my experience. At least 50% - 75% of the members of most units are inactive. This includes Mercstar with whom I spent a few weeks before deciding it wasn't for me. Out of 300+ members only a fraction of this number are ever online at a given time.

Mercstar is not the problem with FW, PGI is the problem with FW. If this game-mode was in anything like a healthy state, we might have 50+ units the size of MS, then no-one would be moaning.

[Danjo San]

Monodominant, on 23 May 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

Why dont other units get more people then? Why is your unit 40 people Danjo? If having numbers is the key to winning (not skill) why dont you open your own gates and hire more?

Edit: Also, good job ignoring what I said once more

Okay, Okay, for crying out loud. I only answer if you are condescending, insulting and show off with your stats... and only if they are excelsior enough I will consider answering
I'll make an exception for you though...
To be exact my Unit has 28 members right now.
Why,
1. because I keep removing inactives on a regular basis, (I have two on my list, that will be removed shortly, as they have been absent for a long time)
2. because we emphasize freedom, no set times, no need to partake in certain modes, no need to keep attendance in forum, no need to report back etc. However we monitor each others activity and when we see players being inactive too long, we first move them into the category "AWOL" and after being in there for a long time they will be removed. I contact them if applicable via mail to inform them.
3. We are Liao Loyalists. Not everybody wants to play for the underdogs.

We are actively recruiting and positions are still open, anybody is welcome.

And to answer your question why 48 members is my suggested cap. Why 4 Dropships?
- There is something called "Real Life". Players have wives, children, jobs, obligations.
A cap as you said of 12, is rightout ridiculous as it would be nearly impossible to field a full 12 man.
Some may not want to wait 10 minutes for a GD, some may want to play scout, some may want to level some mechs in QP.
- as I mentioned earlier, (although MWO is a Mil-Sim) it's rules and structure are similar to professional sports. Set rules, Set Time, Set Win Conditions, heck even set Penalty Systems with time out's like in Ice Hockey... So why not adapt roster limitations? As I referred to NFL-Regulations. A Team is made of 53 Players, with only 11 on the Field at the same time. That makes perfect sense there. And it can do the same here... Closest common Nominator between NFL-Roster size and my MWO suggestion is 48.
And, as I repedatly stated, MWO does not have the active Playerbase to justify these kind of unit Sizes. Especially in mercenary companies. You know your numbers and you now that Mercstar has more than one company. So I don't need to sum that up for you. Now all of them move in bulk, coincidentally lots of other mercs end up moving to the same faction, what do you have a hughe bulk of players sitting in one spot, complaining there are not enough enemies out there to fight and crying that they ghostdrop for 3 hours until one shows up... I don't understand why I have to point out the irony in this all the time, but put it this way.
[XYZ] has 528 members, they are Mercenaries. They split up into [XYZ0] [XYZ1] [XYZ2] [XYZ3] and so on. subdivisions of a large community. The initially move together and use teamspeak and whatnot. at some point they realize that whereever they go they get ghostdrops for two hours until finally some freelancers other mercs and a hinch of loyalist show up to be stomped.
They could have matches if they decided to split 50/50 [XYZ0-4] go to Faction 1 for 7 Days and [XYZ6-10] goes to an adjacent faction for 7 days. now instead of ghostdropping all the time they can actually get matches, sure, they'd be fighting their friends, but in retrospect they'd be having matches and can consider it as sparring.
But no wait, that's a horrible Idea right? How could I even think of something this dumb.
From the entire System PGI has put up right now it would benefit everybody.
1. Cut recruitment costs.
2. leave space for casual units to have some impact
3. would ease the population issue
4. If you still want to move and fight together, you can still do it.
5. Distribution of planetary MC gain becomes easier

So far your Contra Points were:
"You cant ask someone to choose between your friends"- You are not, you are just giving them subdivion tags
"They would still be able to communicate and drop together so in makes no sense" - Communication and Drops is correct, but why it makes no sense fails me.
"Your system means the end of large Loyalist units as well" - No It would just organize them in said subdivisons
"It would only harm struggling units" - What Units are struggling? the small ones? the one-man units? large loyalist units? So far I can tell the only ones mentioning struggle are big merc units. And struggle meaning here their expansion isn't that effective anymore...

hope that makes my point clear to you Monodominant,

[Lehmund]

Armando, on 20 May 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

When Seals queue up against a team of Walruses it normally ends with the Seals WISHING they would have been Clubbed. It is a true today as is was the day the game was first dropped.

The only question is "Which is worse"....the Seals getting consumed by Walruses after a 60 second wait, or Seals getting consumed by Walruses after at 60+ minute wait???

The answer is simple:

• Create CW Quick Play games on CW maps with no Inner Sphere consequence, MC rewards etc... Just another Quick Play game mode for everyone to enjoy and queue up for using the standard MM mechanic.
  
• Make the real Inner Sphere CW map and play competitive and "end game content" only qualified players can enjoy. This means you can't play those games until your account has had X number of games under it's belt, and have passed through the proper tutorials etc....

Most multiplayer games with competitive aspects do this (LoL and many others) to avoid new people to get stomped and discouraged + competitive community to be frustrated by new players coming in not knowing how to play.

[Monodominant]

Danjo what you suggest is clear. Why are big units being big an issue still isnt to me.

If you accept big units have numerous inactives and you accept that at most they drop 2-3 teams then what is the issue?

That they hog many people? But its up to people to decide where to go... why would an arbitrary cap be the solution?

Being big doesnt equate being good. A very good 10 man will smash a 12 man premade of average players regardless of unit tag. I had played with SWOL 12mans and where smashed by a 'skittle' group that got organised by 4-5 MJ12 guys. If anything, the aim should be to educate 'skittles', not to remove those few people that play as teams... the way FW is meant to be played!

I can understand that there are many things that PGI failed to do to energise the community and I understand the community is small but I still dont see why breaking up big units will improve this.

If you and your 26 members drop regularly and have fun regularly and flip planets (cause I am sure that you also play vs skittles and not just vs MS) what is the issue?

The issue is bigger than MS and SWOL and 228 and whoever else is big enough for you to notice.

Furthermore, I am pretty sure the 26 people in your team are high skilled... or real life friends. So you are rightly excluding casuals and unknowns... other units dont want to do that. They promote a more 'equal opportunity' environment where there is space for everyone. What is easier? To join a hardocore 40 man unit or to join SWOL with their open door policy?

One issue we can rightly point at (that caused this weeks issue) is no visibility of who is where. Until all the major units went birdies, they didnt know they are going there. You can go all conspiracy theory and say they coordinated or you can look at it another way
:
A ) people like to play with their new toys. Kodiak had just come out.
B ) people like to feel their efforts matter. After MS & other Mercs left the clans they had pushed, the clans crumbled. Jade was an exception as Jade loyalists seemed to be doing good. So jumping there meant you could actually reach Terra (the scope of FW iNVASION).
C ) In general Steiner had been putting up a fight. So going to fight Steiner made sense to get fights.

So, would it not make sense to create a system of checks and balances? When PGI sees that suddenly the population of Jade Falcon has increased give HUGE benefits to people to go and fight for Steiner. Give Steiner loyalists similarly big benefits so they show up to defend their planets. On top of that, when you see 150++ people in a single attack lane, just increase the attack lanes available or you are essentially stifling your playerbase!

In general, is it that much to ask that PGI firsts pays attention to their EVOLVING game mode and if that still doesnt work revisit the issue of splitting up units.

On a side not... who decides who will stay and who will go? If you suddenly tell units that tough luck, now you are no longer together, you will have an intra-unit backlash, people leaving and people quitting. How will that help the already reduced population?

At the end of the day, who do you want to keep happy? People who will always drop in CW cause thats the mode they like (Members of medium/big units and Lore followers) or the casual that came, tried once, got stomped and left? In the ideal world... both... in the real world... the first makes more sense because he will keep playing.

Edited by Monodominant, 23 May 2016 - 04:58 AM.