47 replies to this topic

[Helsbane]

2fast2stompy, on 23 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Are you joking?

Nope. Totally not joking. I've been bringing quad UAC10 builds on my 'Whales for a long time now. 4xUAC5 / 2xUAC2s worked well too. The 'Whale is hampered by being a touch slower, so you have to plan ahead a little more as far as positioning goes. Variants that can jump if need be. Builds that can do energy based loads or run quad gauss.... Tell me again the vast differences you're seeing between the two? Ah, yes... Speed, twist range and hill humping ability. Nothing more....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Helsbane, on 23 May 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ah, yes... Speed, twist range and hill humping ability. Nothing more....

That matters a lot more than you are giving it credit. There is a reason mechs like the Hunchback IIC/Battlemaster/Banshee are so strong in the current meta.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 May 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[2fast2stompy]

Helsbane, on 23 May 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Tell me again the vast differences you're seeing between the two? Ah, yes... Speed, twist range and hill humping ability. Nothing more....

Those are vast differences. Even with the same exact engine, the Kodiak twists 30% faster. It also turns 25% faster. It also has a much wider torso turn angle, which combines with the twist speed for an even bigger difference, given how twisting works. Not even getting into the hardpoint placement.

You can try to underplay it all you want, that makes all the difference in the world.

Edited by 2fast2stompy, 23 May 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

I find the KDKs to rank out as so:
1) KDK3 (great)
2) Spirit Bear (real good)
3) KDK4 (good)
4) KDK1 (good)
5) KDK5 (Mediocre)
6) KDK2 (sub par)

the 1 is underrated, because people want to make it a vomit mech, and as such push it into builds it really can't maximize. The 4 is another underrated Gem, that IMO is the most fun version, realyl love the hardpoint layout. Can't boat, so probably never be Meta Approved, but it's very solid. Spirit Bear is a Clan AS7-S analogue that trades toughness for mobility. More of a hit and run striker than toe to toe brawler. 3 is of course, very strong... if one overlooks being a huge fragile (for an assault mech) target, overrated mobility (it's still a 64 kph mech, not like we talking 80-90) with burst weapons, requiring it to have facetime to maximize results. At this roles, the MAL is better, and up close the AS7 will trash it.

The 5? Again, on simply can't maximize laservomit as optimum on a slower 100 ton chassis of questionable hitbox durability. It's capable of some decent builds, but is far from being impressive.

The 2? Weak hardpoints, big target.... JJs are just not worth their tonnage.

The 4 is a joy, a really great mech that's overshadowed by the 3 largely because the 3 is simple, "point and shoot". Running the 4 with a pair of 10's, a pair of Large Pulses, and some SRM's, it's beastly. Sure, it's only pushing 66 damage instead of 80 at range, but it's doing it without ghost heat concerns, and with hitscan precision with the lasers... and that goes up to 90 damage up close once the ASRM12's come into play.

I like the 4 a hell of a lot.

I agree with the list, though. The 2 and 5 are the worst, easily and that's totally ignoring the 1 and 5's lack of quirks. The 2 in particular is horrible - those two ton jump jets bring nothing to the table, and it's hardpoints are awful.

I think most of the issue with the 3 is simply that it's such a simple mech. Peek, burst, cover.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

The 4 is a joy, a really great mech that's overshadowed by the 3 largely because the 3 is simple, "point and shoot". Running the 4 with a pair of 10's, a pair of Large Pulses, and some SRM's, it's beastly. Sure, it's only pushing 66 damage instead of 80 at range, but it's doing it without ghost heat concerns, and with hitscan precision with the lasers... and that goes up to 90 damage up close once the ASRM12's come into play.

I like the 4 a hell of a lot.

I agree with the list, though. The 2 and 5 are the worst, easily and that's totally ignoring the 1 and 5's lack of quirks. The 2 in particular is horrible - those two ton jump jets bring nothing to the table, and it's hardpoints are awful.

I think most of the issue with the 3 is simply that it's such a simple mech. Peek, burst, cover.

what engine? I tried larger lasers, but didn't like the sacrifices I had to make.
KDK-4 HuggyBear

is my current build.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

what engine? I tried larger lasers, but didn't like the sacrifices I had to make.
KDK-4 HuggyBear

is my current build.

KDK-4 is mine.

I only run the XL400 on my Spirit Bear (because MASC!), otherwise I run 350, 360 (KDK-3), and 375's on the other variants. You get so little extra speed for so very much tonnage, and as a result the twist difference between the different engines is trivially small.

I find that I don't like close range KDK builds, except in the case of the Spirit Bear which can have all the speeds to get in close. That huge CT, so very wide right at the typical firing height, is basically impossible to miss, so I prefer to roll with mid range heavy hitting builds.

[Sjorpha]

Really disagree about the 2 being subpar, it has a really strong gaussvomit build, it has quirks and a single jumpjet adds adds lots of agility. It's the second strongest after the 3 I think. The spirit bear is amazing in it's role but still comes third due to assault brawling being a narrower niche than midrange. The 1 falls behind due to not having quirks and too much hard point redundancy, but still a very strong mech.

Can't speak for the reinforcement variants, but none of them looks weak.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

KDK-4 is mine.

I only run the XL400 on my Spirit Bear (because MASC!), otherwise I run 350, 360 (KDK-3), and 375's on the other variants. You get so little extra speed for so very much tonnage, and as a result the twist difference between the different engines is trivially small.

I find that I don't like close range KDK builds, except in the case of the Spirit Bear which can have all the speeds to get in close. That huge CT, so very wide right at the typical firing height, is basically impossible to miss, so I prefer to roll with mid range heavy hitting builds.

I'm too much a medium mech guy to go slow, plus if I run the short-range stuff too heavy, she gets hot, it's more for lights and the coup de grace

[Moldur]

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

The 4 is a joy, a really great mech that's overshadowed by the 3 largely because the 3 is simple, "point and shoot". Running the 4 with a pair of 10's, a pair of Large Pulses, and some SRM's, it's beastly. Sure, it's only pushing 66 damage instead of 80 at range, but it's doing it without ghost heat concerns, and with hitscan precision with the lasers... and that goes up to 90 damage up close once the ASRM12's come into play.

I like the 4 a hell of a lot.

I agree with the list, though. The 2 and 5 are the worst, easily and that's totally ignoring the 1 and 5's lack of quirks. The 2 in particular is horrible - those two ton jump jets bring nothing to the table, and it's hardpoints are awful.

I think most of the issue with the 3 is simply that it's such a simple mech. Peek, burst, cover.

(sorry to derail the thread more, OP)
OTHER KDK-4 FANS? HELL YEAH. I am really enjoying the KDK-4. It has the same hardpoints (not the same positions though) as the Atlas-D. This being the case, I can build it as a clan equivalent of my Founder Atlas.
KDK-4
AS7-D

To Bishop, I know the c-erLL are not ideal for a lot of people, but so far the build I've been using has been pretty heat neutral and really does the job from mid range, and it does not really sacrifice much up close. I'm basically shooting the double UAC-5s the entire match, and using the erLL + UACs to really dissuade any early pokers as a secondary duty while waiting for the fight to develop. Still has a good Alpha at 70, plus those double uacs tapping away. It's sort of a late game tank, definitely not a hap-hazardous first-contact rusher. I'm averaging just over 500 damage with 22 games, but that's a small sample + some wiggle room before coming up with the build and the fact that it's only just been elited. Hey, I'm 70 something on the leader-boards with it right now if that gives any assurance!
I suppose you could always drop the engine and use double LPL to make it a bit more domestic.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 23 May 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Really disagree about the 2 being subpar, it has a really strong gaussvomit build, it has quirks and a single jumpjet adds adds lots of agility. It's the second strongest after the 3 I think. The spirit bear is amazing in it's role but still comes third due to assault brawling being a narrower niche than midrange. The 1 falls behind due to not having quirks and too much hard point redundancy, but still a very strong mech.

Can't speak for the reinforcement variants, but none of them looks weak.

Exe does jump Gauss better

Can't say a single Gauss build on a 100 tonner exciting

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

Exe does jump Gauss better

Can't say a single Gauss build on a 100 tonner exciting

Agreed.

Jump gauss on the KDK is silly, because it can't get high enough to matter (and it can peek over most things just fine anyways). Pushing all those tons into ineffective jump jets for a laughably poor poptart is terrible.

Gauss overall... It's ok as a complement on the KDK, as it helps to deal with heat issues, but ultimately it's a single gauss rifle; it's just not very interesting or threatening.

My experience with Gauss on my KDK's has been largely that it either:

1) Encourages me to stay facing my target too long (huge ct!) during the charge, or
(and yes I'm aware you don't have to stay facing during the charge, but I'm bad and tend to do it without meaning to)

2) Encourages me to ridge peek and fire the Gauss... and thus accomplish practically nothing because a single gauss peek? May as well slot a GR on a Shadowhawk and call it a day. You can go gauss+PPC, but then again there are lots of better options for that using way less tonnage.

Blah. It's really just very boring, fiddly to make it work, and seems a waste of the chassis.

Now, I understand the above are sort of my failings and personal feelings, but that's that. I think it's important that the KDK isn't a peek-sniper-********-build, but something actually ferocious.

[Reza Malin]

2fast2stompy, on 23 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Are you joking?

He has to be!

Either that or he has just done a whole pile of coke.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

Agreed.

Jump gauss on the KDK is silly, because it can't get high enough to matter (and it can peek over most things just fine anyways). Pushing all those tons into ineffective jump jets for a laughably poor poptart is terrible.

Gauss overall... It's ok as a complement on the KDK, as it helps to deal with heat issues, but ultimately it's a single gauss rifle; it's just not very interesting or threatening.

My experience with Gauss on my KDK's has been largely that it either:

1) Encourages me to stay facing my target too long (huge ct!) during the charge, or
(and yes I'm aware you don't have to stay facing during the charge, but I'm bad and tend to do it without meaning to)

2) Encourages me to ridge peek and fire the Gauss... and thus accomplish practically nothing because a single gauss peek? May as well slot a GR on a Shadowhawk and call it a day. You can go gauss+PPC, but then again there are lots of better options for that using way less tonnage.

Blah. It's really just very boring, fiddly to make it work, and seems a waste of the chassis.

Now, I understand the above are sort of my failings and personal feelings, but that's that. I think it's important that the KDK isn't a peek-sniper-********-build, but something actually ferocious.

I get that it's a way to "find a use for" the KDK2. But to me it's like trying to put lipstick on a pig, or shine a ****. End of the day, it's still a pig or a ****. Gauss sniper is better doneby EXE.... and truth to tell, even better by the SMN, the SHD, etc.

55 ton mechs make use of Gauss/PPC combo as well or better than any KDK will, as a jumper. As Quicksilver pointed out, you can do the dual gauss, dual erppc on the 3 for some solid effect (better DWF), and such, but the 2?

Just... no. It's not bias it's the fact that I can do that role, better, with a mech 45 tons lighter. It's like people who put the same exact build on every version of a chassis while they grind it "cause it works"... end of the day, you'll still sell off all but one if they are all the same anyhow. And maybe it makes grinding the KDK2 easier for the him. But it doesn't make the KDK2 especially good, nor that build. And since I'm not a PokeMech guy, for me the answer is.... grind a different chassis and sell the 2 for parts. I have seen nothing to show it be anythign but the worst version. (And hey, that's OK.. something always has to be best, something has to be worst).

Just a shame to me that Paul broke JJs so badly that something that shoudl make it an interesting addition to the Mechbay instead at best takes advantage of still broken single JJ mechanics to make a semi passable build.

[Sjorpha]

Who said anything about "jump gauss" or "gauss sniping"?

The play style is called gauss vomit and is a mid range high alpha strategy that was dominant for quite a while, typically it was done with 1 gauss and 4-6 mediums on a clan heavy.

The Kodiak 2 does this extremely well, and the single jj is there to add micro adjustment and climbing ability not to "get high enough".

It's a really strong build and style on a strong chassis for anyone who learned how to gaussvom when that was in the loop, but by all means pretend its somehow a weak variant if you want.

[GurpGork]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Regardless... don't stand in front of it, and problem is usually solved.

That can be said of any mech in the game. Means literally nothing in terms of justifying the inflation, lol. Lame try, but no love.

No matter how good you are, you do occasionally have to take an alpha to the face due to "circumstances". Things happen even when you are the best in the game. The problem becomes that if you get caught in front of this, your game is basically over. Instead of losing 20% or 30% of your mech, you will most likely lose 50 to 70% of your mech, if not be outright destroyed.

That's the whole issue with high alphas. It is severely punishing for any mistakes. Not to mention severely drops TTK.

[Xetelian]

KDK-4

Dual Gauss with a STD 350, the build I WISH I could take on my AS7-D



As far as inflation goes

Inflation is a good thing

Just ask the SDR 5V if we should inflate

Just ask the Commando if we should inflate

In a world with 6 Ballistic DWFs every extra point is necessary to keep up with power creep.

Edited by Xetelian, 23 May 2016 - 06:11 PM.

[Reza Malin]

Navid A1, on 23 May 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

Anyone think that hardpoint inflation (2B per torso) was a bit too much on the KDK-3?

Hard point infalation and clan mechs is not really the norm.

Was there a reason for this?

So people would throw money at the screen for an overpowered mech.

Wish granted.

[Gyrok]

Navid A1, on 23 May 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

Anyone think that hardpoint inflation (2B per torso) was a bit too much on the KDK-3?

Hard point infalation and clan mechs is not really the norm.

Was there a reason for this?

Giving PGI stupid ideas is not advised.

[Dingo Battler]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

I find the KDKs to rank out as so:
1) KDK3 (great)
2) Spirit Bear (real good)
3) KDK4 (good)
4) KDK1 (good)
5) KDK5 (Mediocre)
6) KDK2 (sub par)

I'd rank

1) KDK3 - No need to explain
2) KDK4 - Double gauss, LPL for a fast speed
3) KDK2 - JJs. Has just enough hardpoints for lasers + gauss/UAC20
4) KDK1 - Ranked below the 2, as it doesn't have JJs. Too many laser hardpoints. the 2xmissile points can't be used for anything (too few for SRMs, LRMs are not supposed to be on assaults, too few hardpoint either way)
5) KDK5 - Ranked below the 1, as you have to spend $$ to get hardpoints you don't need. Too many laser hardpoints to be useful
6) SB - My favourite KDK actually. Unfortunately, it has only 1 build (4xSRM6, UAC/LBX20, 2xERSL/flamers). MASC makes it the most survivable, and arguably the best brawler. It can't win against an atlas, but unlike the atlas, it can extract from a bad position very easily, making it very survivable. Also, easy for it to close in to anything. Unfortunately, mid-range is the game today, and brawlers are not the most viable. Its my most played and favoruite mech of all though.

But yeah, the KDK3 is a beast.

Edited by KBurn85, 23 May 2016 - 07:51 PM.

[The Amazing Spider Man]

Xetelian, on 23 May 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

Just ask the SDR 5V if we should inflate

Just ask the Commando if we should inflate

In a world with 6 Ballistic DWFs every extra point is necessary to keep up with power creep.

I'd say the 5V doesn't need more hardpoints, just a fix on the latest nerf, make jjs work properly (no damage from map), and make it a skoosh easier to stay in an assault's blindspot if they're over 80 tons.

Stalkers and Dires make it easy to stay on their 6 due to twist and mobility issues. This is how it should be if lights are to be the counter to assaults. All other assault mechs you have to be flawless with your reaction time or you wind up on the windshield against a half decent player.

Change assault stats to allow me to weaponize my mobility and I'd need no further hardpoints.