1017 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 31 May 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

In a word, yes.

I think if you were to run a 1v1 weekend using only those 4 Mechs that you would find they're balanced amongst themselves. Thousands of matches, please. No tiny little 4 matches per map per pair experiments.

On some maps, the Atlas will have an advantage. On other maps, the Mauler will have an advantage. On yet further maps, the Banshee and/or KDK-3 will have an advantage.

Overall across all maps I suspect the Banshee would be the "best" of the four. The KDK-3 might be second, but I'm not even sure about that vs the Mauler.


Riiight. So remove quirks that affect none of the problems except one, and that's somehow going to magically fix everything? Furthermore, you're going to make the one negative that you've listed even worse in the process?

This statement alone from you proves to me that you have an agenda and aren't actually concerned about balance. You're normally very reasoned and have a solid foundation of facts behind your opinions, but this time it seems to be emotional. The nerf you've proposed won't even fix the problems that you perceive.

Mobility is what controls your ability to apply damage. It's why the KDK3 is so much better than the exact same loadout on the Dire. Or are you saying that the KDK3 isn't better than the Dire?

If you think the Banshee would win out overall.... I don't even. I would say the KDK would crush the Atlas and Mauler consistently and beat the Banshee most the time.

You need about 40 matched to get a good sample, especially if it's a handful of the same people playing each other. We don't need a < 2% margin of error.

If hitboxes are fixed the only negative the mech has is already mitigated. If it can roll damage even as well as a GHR it's going to have no real negative. Even with terribad hitboxes, again, ability to put damage on target like a heavy. More burst, more DPS than the Banshee.

A couple of you are probably not getting the same performance out of the KDK3 that others are and as such are saying it's not that good. At this point pretty much every comp player has pointed out that even with the bad hitboxes it's way better in at least the QP environment.

I'll go with what the final telemetry shows. Happily. My interest is in a balanced game. At this point however all the reliable telemetry plus all available relative data points show it being out of scope and power creep.

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

At this point however all the reliable telemetry

Proof? Wasn't aware that you have access to PGI's telemetry. Or is this just more hyperbole stated as fact?

[Mcgral18]

Roadkill, on 31 May 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

Proof? Wasn't aware that you have access to PGI's telemetry. Or is this just more hyperbole stated as fact?

Over 100 matches in, over 9 KDr, over 990 average damage, top score EVER in PGI's events, multiple high level players saying it's exceedingly powerful (though not necessarily OP, but LOL why quirks PGI?)


So, both anecdotal and from what limited stats we can acquire.


SupaHunch is a PUG LIFE monster.

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Over 100 matches in, over 9 KDr, over 990 average damage, top score EVER in PGI's events, multiple high level players saying it's exceedingly powerful (though not necessarily OP, but LOL why quirks PGI?)

So, both anecdotal and from what limited stats we can acquire.

That's observed data, not telemetry. He specifically claimed "all the reliable telemetry."

But as far as observed data goes... for you. For Twinky. For a limited pool of very elite, very top-tier players in an environment ripe for abuse.

My anecdotal experience is that it's not even consistently the best Kodiak in matches. I see them outscored consistently by pretty much anything you can think of. While they are often among the best assaults in matches, they're far from dominating. They're good, that's all. Like the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90.

Not for me. Not for Bishop. Not for Gyrok.

The real question: what does PGI's actual telemetry show, keeping in mind that a significant amount of it was collected in what looks to me like a perfect storm environment for the KDK-3?

[Corrado]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Over 100 matches in, over 9 KDr, over 990 average damage, top score EVER in PGI's events, multiple high level players saying it's exceedingly powerful (though not necessarily OP, but LOL why quirks PGI?)


So, both anecdotal and from what limited stats we can acquire.


SupaHunch is a PUG LIFE monster.

so can we buff now crap mechs instead to nerf good mechs?

[Roadkill]

Corrado, on 31 May 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

so can we buff now crap mechs instead to nerf good mechs?

No, in that respect I agree with them. TTK is too low as it is, so we don't want to raise all other Mechs up to the level of the current best. It would be better for the game to nerf the best Mechs down to some thought-out "correct" level (and boost others up to that same level). But that's the land of unicorns farting rainbows so really not worth discussing.

I really only disagree with them here because they're only proposing to nerf one Mech out of many that need it, which in the current PGI environment makes game balance worse because it effectively removes the Clans' only good Assault Mech.

[Mcgral18]

Corrado, on 31 May 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

so can we buff now crap mechs instead to nerf good mechs?

Power creep upon power creep upon power creep


How about no

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 31 May 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

That's observed data, not telemetry. He specifically claimed "all the reliable telemetry."

But as far as observed data goes... for you. For Twinky. For a limited pool of very elite, very top-tier players in an environment ripe for abuse.

My anecdotal experience is that it's not even consistently the best Kodiak in matches. I see them outscored consistently by pretty much anything you can think of. While they are often among the best assaults in matches, they're far from dominating. They're good, that's all. Like the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90.

Not for me. Not for Bishop. Not for Gyrok.

The real question: what does PGI's actual telemetry show, keeping in mind that a significant amount of it was collected in what looks to me like a perfect storm environment for the KDK-3?

Reason, record and circumstance.

Please identify for me when the comp tier players pretty much universally identified a balance issue and we're wrong.

Every comp tier player in this thread and reddit had consistently agreed it's a balance issue and removing the quirks is a good start.

There's a group of players saying they don't see that in their matches. Do you remember when Clans first came out and the arguments over their being OP and a slew of people saying they were balanced just fine.

That's why even general telemetry is semi-reliable compared to telemetry from a test group of comp tier players. They are all in a similar performance band and for enough along that they're getting full effective use of the mech.

Op in QP is a big problem. That's where most play takes place. If the balance solution is "everyone needs to play like the top 1% of players" It's not a solution.

[Darth Hotz]

Corrado, on 31 May 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

so can we buff now crap mechs instead to nerf good mechs?

Awesome plan! Instead of nerfing the KDK 3, better buff like 50 other mechs. Easy to do with the unlimited resources that PGI has to offer. I am positive that this will also get the TTK in absolutely new dimensions.

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 31 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

No, in that respect I agree with them. TTK is too low as it is, so we don't want to raise all other Mechs up to the level of the current best. It would be better for the game to nerf the best Mechs down to some thought-out "correct" level (and boost others up to that same level). But that's the land of unicorns farting rainbows so really not worth discussing.

I really only disagree with them here because they're only proposing to nerf one Mech out of many that need it, which in the current PGI environment makes game balance worse because it effectively removes the Clans' only good Assault Mech.

There's some context here.

All the KDKS need hitboxes fixed. If I was a really ambitious dreamer I'd ask PGI to quirk up the under performers in the KDK family. A bit much to ask, PGI seems to prefer at most 1 good variant of any mech at a time.

If they do get quirks they should be structure first and small mobility quirks on the under performers.

I would absolutely agree that the Clans need a T1 assault bland we don't want to power creep - I'd be happiest if all the T1 mechs got a small dial back. Every one of them. Would improve ttk. I'd be happiest if it was dialing weapon quirks back, not structure quirks too. Not sure how best to handle that on the Clan T1s but I'd prefer it extend ttk.

Overall though the kdk3 is power creep. It's the best loadout on the Dire with the best mobility of any assault and over the shoulder mounts. Yeah, it's a bit much.

[White Bear 84]

xWiredx, on 23 May 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

KDK-3 Quirks: Ballistic cooldown +2 seconds, UAC Jam Chance +50%, Ballistic range -25%

Hahahaha you in crazy town there...

[1453 R]

White Bear 84, on 31 May 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Hahahaha you in crazy town there...

Sad part?

There are honestly people, even in this very forum, who've put forth similar ideas and meant them, 100% seriously, as a viable idea to 'fix' the KDK-3.

is it any wonder Bishop is bracing himself for the inevitable destruction of the chassis?

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 31 May 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

Sad part?

There are honestly people, even in this very forum, who've put forth similar ideas and meant them, 100% seriously, as a viable idea to 'fix' the KDK-3.

is it any wonder Bishop is bracing himself for the inevitable destruction of the chassis?

No, only you fearmongering and exaggerating.


Seriously, how many ridiculous posts in this thread alone? It's almost like you want The Nerfinator to read them.

[wanderer]

The first step should be moving the quirks on the -3 over to another Kodiak.

Reduce it's agility and decrease it's toughness slightly. See how that works. Remember, quad UAC/10 is not a new Clan build, merely that the Kodiak is a better chassis to put them on. Sorta the difference between an AC/20 Catapult and Jagermech- the latter did better than the former.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

Power creep upon power creep upon power creep


How about no

I see no threads started by you asking to nerf power creep ridden over-quirked IS mechs, why is that mcgral? Power Creep is only ok for the IS?

[LordKnightFandragon]

So is the Kodiak a close in brawler?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 31 May 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

I see no threads started by you asking to nerf power creep ridden over-quirked IS mechs, why is that mcgral? Power Creep is only ok for the IS?

Now there you go with the assumptions Gyrok

I haven't played the older Uberquirks, just the Kodiak, and it's excessive. I only judge what I play.
Some have excessive quirks, and the power creep (as you just quoted me say) is bad.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 31 May 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

There's some context here.

All the KDKS need hitboxes fixed. If I was a really ambitious dreamer I'd ask PGI to quirk up the under performers in the KDK family. A bit much to ask, PGI seems to prefer at most 1 good variant of any mech at a time.

If they do get quirks they should be structure first and small mobility quirks on the under performers.

I would absolutely agree that the Clans need a T1 assault bland we don't want to power creep - I'd be happiest if all the T1 mechs got a small dial back. Every one of them. Would improve ttk. I'd be happiest if it was dialing weapon quirks back, not structure quirks too. Not sure how best to handle that on the Clan T1s but I'd prefer it extend ttk.

Overall though the kdk3 is power creep. It's the best loadout on the Dire with the best mobility of any assault and over the shoulder mounts. Yeah, it's a bit much.

You realize, increasing TTK right now will only result in stronger tendency to murderball. It will not improve/change gameplay in the manner you expect. It will only increase the gap between organized groups and smaller groups.

Consider that...if it takes even longer to kill a mech, then the top units will murderball harder. The PUGs will still scatter, and the result will be more cries of big groups OP.

Look at this logic.

BF4 has low TTK and zero murderballs. Same as CoD, and every other low TTK FPS.

MWO has relatively high TTK and lots of murderballs.

Why?

Simple...with higher TTK, one mech is that much less effective by it self. Small groups are that much less effective by themselves. You require *more* focus fire to bring down targets reliably, and a fresh Splatlas at the end of a match will be that much more assured of victory if there are not enough mechs to bring it down.

Is that really the environment you want? Drive murderballs even harder?

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

Now there you go with the assumptions Gyrok

I haven't played the older Uberquirks, just the Kodiak, and it's excessive. I only judge what I play.
Some have excessive quirks, and the power creep (as you just quoted me say) is bad.

You have played the wubshee recently, I am sure of that...and the BK...and the MAL.

Edited by Gyrok, 31 May 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 31 May 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

You have played the wubshee recently, I am sure of that...and the BK...and the MAL.

WubShee has few, but powerful, quirks. Duration, heat, range
Nothing defensive

It's also completely overshadowed in the mid range role by the Kodiak-3

It used to be fun, and it still effective, but pales in comparison to what it once was, pre skill nerf.


Never played BK or Mauler

[Cy Mitchell]

Gyrok, on 31 May 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

Look at this logic.

BF4 has low TTK and zero murderballs. Same as CoD, and every other low TTK FPS.

MWO has relatively high TTK and lots of murderballs.

Why?

Simple...with higher TTK, one mech is that much less effective by it self. Small groups are that much less effective by themselves. You require *more* focus fire to bring down targets reliably, and a fresh Splatlas at the end of a match will be that much more assured of victory if there are not enough mechs to bring it down.

Is that really the environment you want? Drive murderballs even harder?



You have played the wubshee recently, I am sure of that...and the BK...and the MAL.

So as an extension to this logic we should remove all armor from all Mechs. Make everyone run around in fatigues like in BF2 and CoD and that will eliminate the murderballs and make the game much better. Huh?


When the re-scale comes out in three weeks just eliminate all the quirks from all the Mechs and let the chips fall where they may. All Mechs were never intended to be equal. Certainly Mechs of diferent weight class are not supposed to be equal. That kind of balance will never be achieved unless they just make one Mech that everyone has to use. Now, that is balance! The question is: who would bother playing a game like that?

Just think how much fun it would be if all the quirks were gone and everyone had to scramble to find the new "hot" set-ups. It would be like a brand new game for everyone. (and the whining, crying and gnashing of teeth would be EPIC!)

Do it PGI!

Edited by Rampage, 31 May 2016 - 06:54 PM.