1017 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm game with the SB having some solid, near Atlas level structure quirks with mobility quirks removed.

With the CXL it has better survivability out of the gate. I would love to see the KDK mostly end up as a faster bit not quite as tanky Atlas and the Dire as a slower, about the same tanky but more firepower Atlas.

There's a balance to be found in there and I'm all for it. Currently though mobility has a higher premium than structure quirks, as do higher weapon mounts.

The balance issue in question isn't about how terribads play though. It's mech to mech balance. Saying a mech is balanced because all its significant advantages are not consistently better except for good players isn't a good argument. Also why dialing back mobility quirks pulls all the KDK3 builds in to line.

Because the DW is a knuckle dragger...it would have to literally have more mobility/agility and better twist, plus a shrink to even be relevant at this point.

It is literally so far behind the other relevant assaults that you literally need not bother discussing the Whale as a meta option. It simply is completely outclassed across the board.

If you un-nerf Gauss, un-nerf the skill tree, un-nerf the torso twist, and un-nerf speed tweak all together, it would still not make the DW a better option in a brawl over the Splatlas. It would still make it unviable in a poke fest against a wubshee or wubmaster. It would require meticulous positioning to have a chance against a MAL or KDK that peek considerably better, and the DW would have to be well supported to even get close to being competitive against any of those.

There really is no world, right now, where the old meta whale gets a reprieve shy of a massive buff.

Edited by Gyrok, 10 June 2016 - 06:28 PM.

[Reza Malin]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Overdramatising?

How about pulling your head out of your butt and try trading what's being said.

The only tiring rhetoric are his totally unsubstantiated claims and your lickspittle agreement worn anything to nerfs the KDK.

Dude just straight up said he wants the SB nerfed too...despite zero actual reason for doing so. Seems to be pretty much proving the point of the OP.

Piss off.

I don't care what he said, i am not arguing for anything right now until i use the KDK-3 myself some more. And the KDK-3 is all i ever commented on anyway.

See, that's called compromise.

My point is, the way you go about it completely deflates any points you may be making, whether valid or not, because you just come across like a petulant child for the most part.

Tone it down, have a discussion instead of flying off the handle with your inane waffles posts everytime you hear something you don't like.

See, i am not even biting on your completely over the top insulting comments, because its all just white noise to me now, you do it all the time. Yes over dramatising.

Edited by Fade Akira, 10 June 2016 - 06:46 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Now that tweedle dee is on ignore......

Please Mischief, I still await you explaining why the big bad SB and other KDKs are deserving of nerfs. Because as yet, you have not.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 10 June 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

So...take away the one thing that makes the Spirit Bear interesting - its exceptional mobility for its size - and turn it into a crappy Atlas-IIC?

No thanks. Keep your structure, leave the mobility quirks. I bought into the Spirit Bear specifically because it was a 70kph War Train. Atlases are awful to play and I can't understand how anyone can pilot a machine with less agility than the Hindenberg - switching gears and turning the Kodiak into a rotten Clatlas is not nice for people who bought it because it was actually supposed to be able to move.

As for the KDK-3...whatever. Seriously, whatever. I can't make myself care anymore, not when we all know it's doomed. Do whatever. Ravage it. Ruin it. Pillage it, burn its church, sow its fields with salt and take its women as your own. I don't care anymore - just get whatever's going to happen over with so I can figure out if I wasted thirty-five bucks on No-diaks or not.

Do you need a fainting couch? If you're going to be that dramatic you need a fainting couch and a feather boa.

If not being significantly better than every other assault is worthless to you I guess you're right. totally shafted by having g a mech that's only as good as the absolute best assaults, not significantly better than the best. It's a horrible tragedy, you should write a poem about how it's destroyed your life to not have something better than. What everything else in the same category is.

Because clearly if a mech ONLY has more speed and firepower bit not also more agility (only as good as the absolute best in class, which it still is more durable than) then it's worthless garbage.

Not kidding. You guys should get fainting couches. Back of the hand to the forehead. Oh dear God the brutal destruction that comes with only being as good as the best, not better than the best.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

Do you need a fainting couch? If you're going to be that dramatic you need a fainting couch and a feather boa.

If not being significantly better than every other assault is worthless to you I guess you're right. totally shafted by having g a mech that's only as good as the absolute best assaults, not significantly better than the best. It's a horrible tragedy, you should write a poem about how it's destroyed your life to not have something better than. What everything else in the same category is.

Because clearly if a mech ONLY has more speed and firepower bit not also more agility (only as good as the absolute best in class, which it still is more durable than) then it's worthless garbage.

Not kidding. You guys should get fainting couches. Back of the hand to the forehead. Oh dear God the brutal destruction that comes with only being as good as the best, not better than the best.

ah the irony of your post with all the melodrama you have put into it.

Like I said, and have said from go, I'm willing to talk KDK3 when someone actually comes up with a fix that actually would matter.

But the way you keep shifting it to the OTHER KDKs...that's the most ridiculous back of hand to forehead crap on this entire thread.

Get the hell over yourself dude, and either nut up with some reasoning for nerfing them..or tbh, shut up.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Now that tweedle dee is on ignore......

Please Mischief, I still await you explaining why the big bad SB and other KDKs are deserving of nerfs. Because as yet, you have not.

Its clan and its decent, what more reason do you need?

[Bishop Steiner]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 June 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Its clan and its decent, what more reason do you need?

fair enough.

It's sad that PGI has finally made Gyrok right, lol. And the clans get one single chassis that has potential to compete with th eIS again... and the Cryhards have to see it broken, too.

[Reza Malin]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

ah the irony of your post with all the melodrama you have put into it.

Like I said, and have said from go, I'm willing to talk KDK3 when someone actually comes up with a fix that actually would matter.

But the way you keep shifting it to the OTHER KDKs...that's the most ridiculous back of hand to forehead crap on this entire thread.

Get the hell over yourself dude, and either nut up with some reasoning for nerfing them..or tbh, shut up.

You are simply a weird bloke mate, good luck with real life whether you can see this post or not, i think you may need it if this is how you react to rational forum comments about a made up robot in a video game....

Edited by Fade Akira, 10 June 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[Scout Derek]

You better cool it, or I'll make you cool it. Sure, you can discuss the Kodiak, but don't provoke, don't argue to a extent where you'll just be aggressive and rude. it's annoying and you're embarrassing yourselves over a new mech that hasn't even been out for more than a month. There's more troublesome battles to be argued about than a mere Kodiak. I want you to think about of a Kingfisher came onto the playing field or something such as new weapons like the Clan heavy lasers and the IS X-Pulse Lasers or even IS UACs 10/20.

[Reza Malin]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

If not being significantly better than every other assault is worthless to you I guess you're right. totally shafted by having g a mech that's only as good as the absolute best assaults, not significantly better than the best.

This point right here, combined with the lore idea that clans have to be superior to be good, is the whole crux of the matter.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Now that tweedle dee is on ignore......

Please Mischief, I still await you explaining why the big bad SB and other KDKs are deserving of nerfs. Because as yet, you have not.

Nerfs.

Okay. What's the fastest and most mobile assault other than the KDK?

Banshee 3m.

What mobility quirks does it have?

None.

So it's got the same speed as the fastest, most mobile mech and then adding 35%+ buffs to mobility so it's not just a bit better it's more than 1/3rd better.

For firepower are you saying the Banshee has more firepower? Cuz LOL. Close to equal but most KDKS are as good or better in the same envelope.

IS XL vs CXL. Survivability.

Gauss+ppc too, on KDK3.

Compared to Atlas? Really? Any idea why the SB/KDK3 got used instead of Atlas on matches so far?

There are maybe 2 maps with specific match parameters where you might take an Atlas over the KDK and it's still questionable.

SO in those instances I'd take the Atlas over the Mauler or Banshee, so I guess both of those are worthless garbage because they're not the best at everything all the time.

Which is the gist of this whole debate. Some people saying the KDK should be balanced with the other top tier assaults and you guys saying that if it's not better than the best at everything it's worthless garbage.

Maybe the SB is fine how it is. I don't have one and am happy to see how the tournament plays out. However this idea that if it's not as durable or better, faster and 35% more maneuverable than the most maneuverable assault while packing at least as good if not markedly better firepower than it's worthless is so absurd it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

[MischiefSC]

I get you want me to list some specifics you can then try to dismiss or pick apart in isolated instances and then imply that means the KDK is balanced.

We've spent 30+ pages saying the same stuff. Strip quirks off the kdk3 and fix hitboxes. If the other KDKs lose quirks they need other quirks. In general structure quirks are better than mobility when dealing with an already super mobile assault with a huge weapons payload.

Which, apparently means everyone wants to nerf the KDKS into useless garbage.

Cuz.... when reality doesn't back your argument use drama.

Reality is the stats for performance on the KDK and opinions of comp tier players who are most invested in balance. Show some telemetry showing the KDK3 is balanced vs other assaults.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Nerfs.

Okay. What's the fastest and most mobile assault other than the KDK?

Banshee 3m.

What mobility quirks does it have?

None.

So it's got the same speed as the fastest, most mobile mech and then adding 35%+ buffs to mobility so it's not just a bit better it's more than 1/3rd better.

For firepower are you saying the Banshee has more firepower? Cuz LOL. Close to equal but most KDKS are as good or better in the same envelope.

IS XL vs CXL. Survivability.

Gauss+ppc too, on KDK3.

Compared to Atlas? Really? Any idea why the SB/KDK3 got used instead of Atlas on matches so far?

There are maybe 2 maps with specific match parameters where you might take an Atlas over the KDK and it's still questionable.

SO in those instances I'd take the Atlas over the Mauler or Banshee, so I guess both of those are worthless garbage because they're not the best at everything all the time.

Which is the gist of this whole debate. Some people saying the KDK should be balanced with the other top tier assaults and you guys saying that if it's not better than the best at everything it's worthless garbage.

Maybe the SB is fine how it is. I don't have one and am happy to see how the tournament plays out. However this idea that if it's not as durable or better, faster and 35% more maneuverable than the most maneuverable assault while packing at least as good if not markedly better firepower than it's worthless is so absurd it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

So you have nothing. No proof, no stats no nothing calling for it to be nerfed, but want it nerfed anyhow?

THAT is why I can't take you seriously on this.

And really, drop the drama BS Mischief. You're spreading it as thick or thicker as anyone. At least most of us are using reality to argue from... you are pushing to have the SB nerfed because you THINK it sounds OP...despite the actual leaderboard stats and comp play showing very specifically that it's not.

Stop pretending to be the voice of reason in all this, unless you are actually going to start using some reason on your Nerf Crusade.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

So you have nothing. No proof, no stats no nothing calling for it to be nerfed, but want it nerfed anyhow?

THAT is why I can't take you seriously on this.

And really, drop the drama BS Mischief. You're spreading it as thick or thicker as anyone. At least most of us are using reality to argue from... you are pushing to have the SB nerfed because you THINK it sounds OP...despite the actual leaderboard stats and comp play showing very specifically that it's not.

Stop pretending to be the voice of reason in all this, unless you are actually going to start using some reason on your Nerf Crusade.

So we have repeatedly in this thread gone over the reasoning, the stats from the contest, reviews by a slew of comp players, the strait stats of the mech, etc.

Repeatedly. To which the responses have gone from "everyone just hates Clan mechs" to the ever popular "Clans are supposed to be OP" to "all assaults should be way better than everything else" to "yes but bad players are bad in everything".

I'm not going to repeat for you the 30th time why the concern over the KDK3 came up, what drives it and what the proposed solutions are. You've been here posting and ignoring them for almost 40 pages and responding with "you just want to nerf them because nerf crusade" or something similarly absurd.

I get you like having a 100 ton mech that's as fast as the fastest assaults, more maneuverable than the best heavies and almost 40% more maneuverable than the most maneuverable assault, also as durable or more so than the WubShee and has a better set of loadouts than any of them. Of course you do.

Of that all anyone is talking about is leaving the speed and firepower as great as they are but dialing the mobility down to just as good as the WubShee, which is the most maneuverable adds ultimate in game in T1 assaults.

Which you say would make it garbage.

Because.... no reason, it just would.


We've been over the stats and details. You ignore them. Then you provide absolutely nothing to support your position save insane accusations that everyone just wants to destroy the KDK3 cuz reasons.

This debate is simple. Some reasonable adjustments to the KDK3 and, if it's born out in the tournament and comp play, other KDKs to make them balanced with other T1s so there's a balanced give and take instead of one totally superior mech and a couple with niche uses. Other side is the same arguments we've had since Clans came out OP as ****.

I'm in favor of a balanced game. That's it.

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Which is the gist of this whole debate. Some people saying the KDK should be balanced with the other top tier assaults and you guys saying that if it's not better than the best at everything it's worthless garbage.

Maybe the SB is fine how it is. I don't have one and am happy to see how the tournament plays out. However this idea that if it's not as durable or better, faster and 35% more maneuverable than the most maneuverable assault while packing at least as good if not markedly better firepower than it's worthless is so absurd it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

Here's my point - the Kodiak, or at least/especially the Spirit Bear, should be DIFFERENT THAN other top-tier assaults.

Every other top-tier assault - KDK-3 exempted for the moment - is a horrible slugabed 50kph bloatboat that takes a month and a half to go from rest to top speed and needs three cranes and a crew of Elementals trained in construction work to go from forward to reverse.

Why should the Kodiak also be a horrible slugabed 50kph bloatboat?

I don't particularly want structure quirks on the Spirit Bear. I feel like that 'Mech should be differentiated by exceptionally high mobility for its class/weight, counterbalanced by being easily the flimsiest of the 100-tonner offering set. That gives it a role. That gives it a niche. That gives it something it does that it can actually be good at, as opposed to being a 'Mech which doesn't really have anything it does that makes it stand out.

Because believe it or not, Lightning Bruisers are awesome, even if they end up with glass jaws.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

So we have repeatedly in this thread gone over the reasoning, the stats from the contest, reviews by a slew of comp players, the strait stats of the mech, etc.

Repeatedly. To which the responses have gone from "everyone just hates Clan mechs" to the ever popular "Clans are supposed to be OP" to "all assaults should be way better than everything else" to "yes but bad players are bad in everything".

I'm not going to repeat for you the 30th time why the concern over the KDK3 came up, what drives it and what the proposed solutions are. You've been here posting and ignoring them for almost 40 pages and responding with "you just want to nerf them because nerf crusade" or something similarly absurd.

I get you like having a 100 ton mech that's as fast as the fastest assaults, more maneuverable than the best heavies and almost 40% more maneuverable than the most maneuverable assault, also as durable or more so than the WubShee and has a better set of loadouts than any of them. Of course you do.

Of that all anyone is talking about is leaving the speed and firepower as great as they are but dialing the mobility down to just as good as the WubShee, which is the most maneuverable adds ultimate in game in T1 assaults.

Which you say would make it garbage.

Because.... no reason, it just would.


We've been over the stats and details. You ignore them. Then you provide absolutely nothing to support your position save insane accusations that everyone just wants to destroy the KDK3 cuz reasons.

This debate is simple. Some reasonable adjustments to the KDK3 and, if it's born out in the tournament and comp play, other KDKs to make them balanced with other T1s so there's a balanced give and take instead of one totally superior mech and a couple with niche uses. Other side is the same arguments we've had since Clans came out OP as ****.

I'm in favor of a balanced game. That's it.

We've had repeated discussions about why the KDK3 might or might not be OP.

Now You are using those with zero extra corroborative data, that the Spirit Bear needs to be nerfed to.... Just because.

That is what I'm talking about.

There's nothing balanced about that, because there is nothing showing that there KDK-SB, or any other other KDK besides arguably the 3, actually are OP.

Yet here YoY are pushing to nerd them to.

You truly have become a bitter vet. Smh.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 June 2016 - 10:03 PM.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 10 June 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Here's my point - the Kodiak, or at least/especially the Spirit Bear, should be DIFFERENT THAN other top-tier assaults.

Every other top-tier assault - KDK-3 exempted for the moment - is a horrible slugabed 50kph bloatboat that takes a month and a half to go from rest to top speed and needs three cranes and a crew of Elementals trained in construction work to go from forward to reverse.

Why should the Kodiak also be a horrible slugabed 50kph bloatboat?

I don't particularly want structure quirks on the Spirit Bear. I feel like that 'Mech should be differentiated by exceptionally high mobility for its class/weight, counterbalanced by being easily the flimsiest of the 100-tonner offering set. That gives it a role. That gives it a niche. That gives it something it does that it can actually be good at, as opposed to being a 'Mech which doesn't really have anything it does that makes it stand out.

Because believe it or not, Lightning Bruisers are awesome, even if they end up with glass jaws.

I can largely agree with what you're saying. My bigget5issue with giving the SB something special is my same issue with the Oxide being so amazing - hero mechs as top of class makes me twitchy.

How about one of the other KDKs?

I'm also twitchy about huge mobility quirks on an assault that's already best in class for speed and survivability due to CXL.

How about the KDK4? Some mobility quirks, say split the difference on it between the existing mega quirks on mobility but give it some structure and weapon quirks? A solid cooldown buff to SRMs since it's got 2 hardpoints instead of 4 and a cooldown buff on the ballistics?

History indicates drilling down on a single advatage creates balance issues. Taking a bit of an agility advantage and pushing it up 35% beyond the best possible competition is problematic.

Clans also need a good Assault that isn't a glass canon. However there's no good reason that you can't have different purviews on different variants of the same chassis aside from PGI liking to make all variants but one **** on mechs.

I hate to say it but I'm of the opinion that the SB (and Oxide) should be about average for their class. It's a real money mech. Giving Clans a good fast hit and run brawler is totally legit though.

Clan mechs are never going to be the flimsiest assault and it needs balanced in context of other assaults, not just 100 tonners. You also need to balance durability with speed in mind - a KGC with an XL is way flimsier than a KDK with one. Due to weapon weight being lower a KDK with an XL carries firepower comparable to a KGC with a std. So same firepower, just faster, same durability.

See the concern? I agree with your point - you want variety, totally legit and I agree. However the KDK has a lot of strengths above other Assaults and it's only weakness is the same (or even still better) than other assaults.

I'd like the SB, as a hero, to be average. Same with every hero mech. Having a KDK that's a fast but fragile brawler is good and fits in with its existing design. A 25% cooldown boost on the 2 missile and 2 ballistic hardpoints wouldn't upset me at least to test on the KDK4.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:

I can largely agree with what you're saying. My bigget5issue with giving the SB something special is my same issue with the Oxide being so amazing - hero mechs as top of class makes me twitchy.

How about one of the other KDKs?

I'm also twitchy about huge mobility quirks on an assault that's already best in class for speed and survivability due to CXL.

How about the KDK4? Some mobility quirks, say split the difference on it between the existing mega quirks on mobility but give it some structure and weapon quirks? A solid cooldown buff to SRMs since it's got 2 hardpoints instead of 4 and a cooldown buff on the ballistics?

History indicates drilling down on a single advatage creates balance issues. Taking a bit of an agility advantage and pushing it up 35% beyond the best possible competition is problematic.

Clans also need a good Assault that isn't a glass canon. However there's no good reason that you can't have different purviews on different variants of the same chassis aside from PGI liking to make all variants but one **** on mechs.

I hate to say it but I'm of the opinion that the SB (and Oxide) should be about average for their class. It's a real money mech. Giving Clans a good fast hit and run brawler is totally legit though.

Clan mechs are never going to be the flimsiest assault and it needs balanced in context of other assaults, not just 100 tonners. You also need to balance durability with speed in mind - a KGC with an XL is way flimsier than a KDK with one. Due to weapon weight being lower a KDK with an XL carries firepower comparable to a KGC with a std. So same firepower, just faster, same durability.

See the concern? I agree with your point - you want variety, totally legit and I agree. However the KDK has a lot of strengths above other Assaults and it's only weakness is the same (or even still better) than other assaults.

I'd like the SB, as a hero, to be average. Same with every hero mech. Having a KDK that's a fast but fragile brawler is good and fits in with its existing design. A 25% cooldown boost on the 2 missile and 2 ballistic hardpoints wouldn't upset me at least to test on the KDK4.

Yet despite your reservations, the leader boards, and actual play for over a month now has not supported your opinion in the least.

Heck, QP is even back to about 2 KDK per match, and they aren't even 3s half the time and almost never SBs. Which strongly argues against them being OP Uber monsters.

So kindly stop crusading to have mechs nerfed that haven't even remotely been proven OP.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

We've had repeated discussions about why the KDK3 might or might not be OP.

Now You are using those with zero extra corroborative data, that the Spirit Bear needs to be nerfed to.... Just because.

That is what I'm talking about

I'm saying see how it plays out in the tournament. If the SB comes out as top of T1 I'm against hero mechs being a must-have. On principle. Buff a cbill one up instead. Totally unrelated to other KDK discussion, applies to Oxide and Butterbee too. $55 mech packs are already bordering on ********, especially with the several months of exclusive access. 2 or 3 weeks? Maybe. 2 or 3 months? **** that. Don't add Hero mechs with top of T1 performance.

While I'm happy to see how the tournament and other examples play out on the SB a 100 ton fast striker assault that's mixed in equal measure with other striker assaults is great. If it's the preferred mech 75% of the time... dial it back aa tiny bit. 10% off the quirks or the like.

Hero mechs that are the best in class though? Nah. Eff that.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Yet despite your reservations, the leader boards, and actual play for over a month now has not supported your opinion in the least.

Heck, QP is even back to about 2 KDK per match, and they aren't even 3s half the time and almost never SBs. Which strongly argues against them being OP Uber monsters.

So kindly stop crusading to have mechs nerfed that haven't even remotely been proven OP.

Except the tournament results and contest results and general consensus of comp play does show it. As discussed prior. We just have the 3x4 restrictions back in place and weeks of everyone playing it non-stop.

[Ace Selin]

The Kodiak 3 is the only one i believe anyone could legitimately argue may need some debuffs.
The other Kodiaks including the Spirit Bear can be left exactly as is, they are fine when compared to other (IS) assaults like the Banshee, Atlas, Mauler.