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How Do I Give Advice In A Correct And Friendly Way

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#1 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 06:47 AM

I am just curious to know the fine points of getting suggestions out to the team, and how to get cooperation from everyone without sounding like a "know it all."

Most of the time people who give input just want everyone to have fun, but sometimes it seems to come across as something else.

I wonder.... is this how it seems from the other end?

ps - Oh! and this has nothing to do with other threads, not trying to be spiteful or anything like that.


Edited by Delta 62, 27 May 2016 - 06:52 AM.


#2 GRiPSViGiL

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 07:51 AM

Just say it like it is and let people do with it what they will. No need to be a carebear delicately putting things so the fragile get offended. Part of the oversensitive nature of the world today so simply don't cater to it.

#3 Fut

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 08:01 AM

View PostGRiPSViGiL, on 27 May 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

Just say it like it is and let people do with it what they will. No need to be a carebear delicately putting things so the fragile get offended. Part of the oversensitive nature of the world today so simply don't cater to it.


^This.

Don't sugar coat it, and try not to use emotional language. Give your advice in a direct and concise manner, and let it go.
It's up to the individual(s) to use the information, to ignore it, or to get offended.

#4 TLBFestus

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 08:56 AM

I disagree.

EVERY match should be designated a "Safe Place" where no one gets hurt and everyone feels "safe" and not negatively affected.

Before firing, preferably at the ground, shooters should issue a "trigger warning" over All chat to warn other players of potentially harmful actions.

Air Strikes and Artillery should be removed from the game so sensitive players should not feel "bombarded" with differing opinions on their right to exist happily in the mech of their choice.

Player names should exhibit "gender fluidity" so as to make each and every one of us feel happy with our genderlessness. Sexual identifying names like "Bob, Ralph, Natalie or Susan" should not be allowed, but we should embrace names such as "Jamie, Skyler, or Dakota", perhaps even "Leslie".

Together we can make all Maps "positive spaces" and improve the game.

All matches will last 15 minutes and the final result will not have a potentially psychologically harmful "winner". Instead both teams will be declared "Particants of Equal Value". Matter of fact, there will will no longer be a "PUG" queue, it should now be referred to as the "PEV" queue.

Faction Warfare must be removed. CW, or Community Wondertime, should be re-enacted.

Finally, the name "Bishop" will have to be banned for it's secular religious male centric undertones.

Thank you and each and everyone here have a stress free, self-respecting and dignified day.

Edited by TLBFestus, 27 May 2016 - 08:57 AM.


#5 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 09:00 AM

View PostTLBFestus, on 27 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I disagree.

EVERY match should be designated a "Safe Place" where no one gets hurt and everyone feels "safe" and not negatively affected.

Before firing, preferably at the ground, shooters should issue a "trigger warning" over All chat to warn other players of potentially harmful actions.

Air Strikes and Artillery should be removed from the game so sensitive players should not feel "bombarded" with differing opinions on their right to exist happily in the mech of their choice.

Player names should exhibit "gender fluidity" so as to make each and every one of us feel happy with our genderlessness. Sexual identifying names like "Bob, Ralph, Natalie or Susan" should not be allowed, but we should embrace names such as "Jamie, Skyler, or Dakota", perhaps even "Leslie".

Together we can make all Maps "positive spaces" and improve the game.

All matches will last 15 minutes and the final result will not have a potentially psychologically harmful "winner". Instead both teams will be declared "Particants of Equal Value". Matter of fact, there will will no longer be a "PUG" queue, it should now be referred to as the "PEV" queue.

Faction Warfare must be removed. CW, or Community Wondertime, should be re-enacted.

Finally, the name "Bishop" will have to be banned for it's secular religious male centric undertones.

Thank you and each and everyone here have a stress free, self-respecting and dignified day.

heh.....hehehe....heh..

#6 Bud Crue

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 09:31 AM

How about: just don't be a dikc about it?

#7 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 09:50 AM

Btw watch all of the GI Joe PSA parodies if you haven't already, they are funny. Lots of them can actually be worked into situations that you might see in mwo.

This is what happened to us in the pub queue when Kodiaks were unleashed upon us.



#8 Coralld

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:04 AM

View PostTLBFestus, on 27 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I disagree.

EVERY match should be designated a "Safe Place" where no one gets hurt and everyone feels "safe" and not negatively affected.

Before firing, preferably at the ground, shooters should issue a "trigger warning" over All chat to warn other players of potentially harmful actions.

Air Strikes and Artillery should be removed from the game so sensitive players should not feel "bombarded" with differing opinions on their right to exist happily in the mech of their choice.

Player names should exhibit "gender fluidity" so as to make each and every one of us feel happy with our genderlessness. Sexual identifying names like "Bob, Ralph, Natalie or Susan" should not be allowed, but we should embrace names such as "Jamie, Skyler, or Dakota", perhaps even "Leslie".

Together we can make all Maps "positive spaces" and improve the game.

All matches will last 15 minutes and the final result will not have a potentially psychologically harmful "winner". Instead both teams will be declared "Particants of Equal Value". Matter of fact, there will will no longer be a "PUG" queue, it should now be referred to as the "PEV" queue.

Faction Warfare must be removed. CW, or Community Wondertime, should be re-enacted.

Finally, the name "Bishop" will have to be banned for it's secular religious male centric undertones.

Thank you and each and everyone here have a stress free, self-respecting and dignified day.


This made me laugh because of the silly and pure craziness of it, and then I started to cry because this is sadly the way our modern day societies are headed.

Damn Dezgra snowflakes.

Edited by Coralld, 27 May 2016 - 10:08 AM.


#9 Davis Carlyle

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:10 AM

View PostTLBFestus, on 27 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I disagree.

EVERY match should be designated a "Safe Place" where no one gets hurt and everyone feels "safe" and not negatively affected.

Before firing, preferably at the ground, shooters should issue a "trigger warning" over All chat to warn other players of potentially harmful actions.

Air Strikes and Artillery should be removed from the game so sensitive players should not feel "bombarded" with differing opinions on their right to exist happily in the mech of their choice.

Player names should exhibit "gender fluidity" so as to make each and every one of us feel happy with our genderlessness. Sexual identifying names like "Bob, Ralph, Natalie or Susan" should not be allowed, but we should embrace names such as "Jamie, Skyler, or Dakota", perhaps even "Leslie".

Together we can make all Maps "positive spaces" and improve the game.

All matches will last 15 minutes and the final result will not have a potentially psychologically harmful "winner". Instead both teams will be declared "Particants of Equal Value". Matter of fact, there will will no longer be a "PUG" queue, it should now be referred to as the "PEV" queue.

Faction Warfare must be removed. CW, or Community Wondertime, should be re-enacted.

Finally, the name "Bishop" will have to be banned for it's secular religious male centric undertones.

Thank you and each and everyone here have a stress free, self-respecting and dignified day.



LRM strikes should shower the target in softly falling flower petals, and the notification 'Warning: Incoming Missiles' should be changed to 'Friendly tap Incoming' to avoid spooking the more sensitive participants.

#10 AssaultPig

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:20 AM

View PostTLBFestus, on 27 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I disagree.

EVERY match should be designated a "Safe Place" where no one gets hurt and everyone feels "safe" and not negatively affected.

Before firing, preferably at the ground, shooters should issue a "trigger warning" over All chat to warn other players of potentially harmful actions.

Air Strikes and Artillery should be removed from the game so sensitive players should not feel "bombarded" with differing opinions on their right to exist happily in the mech of their choice.

Player names should exhibit "gender fluidity" so as to make each and every one of us feel happy with our genderlessness. Sexual identifying names like "Bob, Ralph, Natalie or Susan" should not be allowed, but we should embrace names such as "Jamie, Skyler, or Dakota", perhaps even "Leslie".

Together we can make all Maps "positive spaces" and improve the game.

All matches will last 15 minutes and the final result will not have a potentially psychologically harmful "winner". Instead both teams will be declared "Particants of Equal Value". Matter of fact, there will will no longer be a "PUG" queue, it should now be referred to as the "PEV" queue.

Faction Warfare must be removed. CW, or Community Wondertime, should be re-enacted.

Finally, the name "Bishop" will have to be banned for it's secular religious male centric undertones.

Thank you and each and everyone here have a stress free, self-respecting and dignified day.


well, somebody certainly seems like they're upset about something

if you just refrain from acting like an ******* and don't vomit out every thought that comes into your head, most people will take your advice at face value (assuming it's good advice, anyway)

#11 Mole

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:25 AM

View PostTLBFestus, on 27 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I disagree.

EVERY match should be designated a "Safe Place" where no one gets hurt and everyone feels "safe" and not negatively affected.

Before firing, preferably at the ground, shooters should issue a "trigger warning" over All chat to warn other players of potentially harmful actions.

Air Strikes and Artillery should be removed from the game so sensitive players should not feel "bombarded" with differing opinions on their right to exist happily in the mech of their choice.

Player names should exhibit "gender fluidity" so as to make each and every one of us feel happy with our genderlessness. Sexual identifying names like "Bob, Ralph, Natalie or Susan" should not be allowed, but we should embrace names such as "Jamie, Skyler, or Dakota", perhaps even "Leslie".

Together we can make all Maps "positive spaces" and improve the game.

All matches will last 15 minutes and the final result will not have a potentially psychologically harmful "winner". Instead both teams will be declared "Particants of Equal Value". Matter of fact, there will will no longer be a "PUG" queue, it should now be referred to as the "PEV" queue.

Faction Warfare must be removed. CW, or Community Wondertime, should be re-enacted.

Finally, the name "Bishop" will have to be banned for it's secular religious male centric undertones.

Thank you and each and everyone here have a stress free, self-respecting and dignified day.

Oh ****, my sides. This is both devastatingly funny and sad because it's how so many people these days think life should work.

#12 cazidin

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:27 AM

"Sir or Madam I regretfully inform you that your pilot skills are inadequate for the tier that you are currently placed in. I also should inform you that Long Range Missiles are a terribly sub-optimal weapon system. You also seem to have allocated your armor more towards the rear than the front which has resulted in a significantly reduced life expectancy."
OR

"You're terrible. LRMs are terrible. Get good."

#13 Zordicron

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:40 AM

OP, you talking in pug life?

Heh, no way about it, all you can do is put it out there brief and blunt. People will still do the proverbial eye rolling etc, and all you can do is go with the flow and see what happens.

I used to put comments in team chat during lost matches, near the end of match, about errors in team movement and how we could have beat out the red team on a different positioning strategy. Very rare I used any type of derogatory terms, more just " when they were in(lower city/grid location x/ pickle factory) we should have moved to (location y) and we would have(gotten a jump on them/had superior positioning for a fire line/been able to flank them easily)" type of thing.

Buuuut, I quit doing most of that because I just didn;t want to read the occasional nerd rage butthurt rants that it sometime sparked. It wasn;t like people could argue with what I was saying, they just wanted to vent. Well, I ain't got no internet couch for you to lay on boy, so I don;t need to hear some poor distressed nerd's incoherent rage quips- so I just stopped bothering.

I imagine in groups or units if you are not being taken seriously you are simply wrong, or in a lousy unit.

TL;DR- pug life yo, herd cats for realz.

#14 Jman5

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:47 AM

View PostDelta 62, on 27 May 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

I am just curious to know the fine points of getting suggestions out to the team, and how to get cooperation from everyone without sounding like a "know it all."

Most of the time people who give input just want everyone to have fun, but sometimes it seems to come across as something else.

I wonder.... is this how it seems from the other end?

ps - Oh! and this has nothing to do with other threads, not trying to be spiteful or anything like that.



1. What I like to do when drop commanding in a PUG is I lay out a basic plan and then I ask the rest of the team if that sounds good to them. 99% of the time people will either say nothing or give their consent. This helps share the responsibility of the outcome more. People are also less likely to finger point if you lose.

2. Don't freak out over people doing something different. Instead try to use their actions to enhance your plan. I play a lot of CW, and it's not uncommon for people to run off on their own and attack through a different gate than us. A lot of premade drop callers freak out when PUGs do this, but I try to make it part of our plan. At the very least they can be a distraction for your main force to relieve some pressure. If things go well he might do a lot of damage to their backs while they deal with us.

3. Don't rub it in people's face when they don't listen and subsequently fail. Let their actions speak, or people get defensive and refuse to admit it was a mistake.

4. Always remember that there is no one way to play. If you usually go one way, but your team goes another way, adjust and support them.

5. Some people don't want to listen. Don't waste energy trying to prove to them that you're right and they're wrong. If they don't want help, f*ck em. let them wallow in mediocrity while you focus on improving your own game and those who want to get better.

#15 Jables McBarty

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 11:35 AM

INCOMING: Wall of text!

View PostGRiPSViGiL, on 27 May 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

Just say it like it is and let people do with it what they will. No need to be a carebear delicately putting things so the fragile get offended. Part of the oversensitive nature of the world today so simply don't cater to it.


So, as good as it feels to say this, and as good as it feels to give advice without any 'sugarcoating'...it's just not effective in the PUG setting. Why not?

1. You have no credibility.
2. You and the "student" have no rapport.
3. You and the "student" have no long-term investment in each other's success.

Let me expand on these three:

Yes, drill sergeants are "blunt" and "direct" (to say the least) but they have credibility--namely the backing of an enormous military and governmental apparatus that deemed them appropriate, possibly even excellent teachers for the raw recruit. In PUGlandia, nobody knows who you are or why they should listen to you. They do not know if you are even being honest or trolling or raging incomprehensibly.

The drill sergeant and the recruit also have a rapport built up over several weeks and months of training. The recruit gets better, the sergeant pushes him harder, and eventually earns the sergeants respect. In PUGlandia, nobody really cares if you respect them because they probably won't see you again, and if they do, it's only for a shared 2-12 minute electronic hallucination.

The drill sergeant has a long-term investment in the recruit's success. If he produces privates/seamen/airmen with poor skills, then not only will his superiors take note, but he is also reducing the overall quality of an organization in which he is heavily invested personally. You have no long-term investment in the student, and he none in you or your advice. You are invested for the next 2-12 minutes, and given the ephemeral nature of the relationship, he's better off listening to his instincts than to your blunt advice.

So while you can be a blunt about it, the vast majority of people will just ignore you. Ultimately they just don't know who you are and whether or not you are giving good advice.

The key then is to use emotional and conversational cues to get people to listen to you. At the very least, this means....

View PostBud Crue, on 27 May 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

How about: just don't be a dikc about it?


If you want to get even more people to listen to you, take Jman's advice:

View PostJman5, on 27 May 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:



1. What I like to do when drop commanding in a PUG is I lay out a basic plan and then I ask the rest of the team if that sounds good to them. 99% of the time people will either say nothing or give their consent. This helps share the responsibility of the outcome more. People are also less likely to finger point if you lose.

2. Don't freak out over people doing something different. Instead try to use their actions to enhance your plan. I play a lot of CW, and it's not uncommon for people to run off on their own and attack through a different gate than us. A lot of premade drop callers freak out when PUGs do this, but I try to make it part of our plan. At the very least they can be a distraction for your main force to relieve some pressure. If things go well he might do a lot of damage to their backs while they deal with us.

3. Don't rub it in people's face when they don't listen and subsequently fail. Let their actions speak, or people get defensive and refuse to admit it was a mistake.

4. Always remember that there is no one way to play. If you usually go one way, but your team goes another way, adjust and support them.

5. Some people don't want to listen. Don't waste energy trying to prove to them that you're right and they're wrong. If they don't want help, f*ck em. let them wallow in mediocrity while you focus on improving your own game and those who want to get better.


I've had pretty solid success with my five principles:

1. Start early: Don't give advice/leadership only after you've died or things have gone to ****. At this point you've lost all credibility. Starting early can also mean simply greeting people to build some camaraderie, get people talking on the comms, etc. to gauge if you even have a receptive audience. If they hear your voice right away saying positive, friendly things, they are more apt to listen to you later. This leads to...

2. Be diplomatic: As Bud said, don't be a ****. For more on this, read the first half of my post.

3. Be democratic: Jman's post is a good illustration of what this means. The recruit needs to listen to the drill sergeant because he is invested in the organization (either through volunteering or in the case of a conscript army by force of law). PUGs are in a completely voluntary organization, one which is completely flat, ephemeral, and in which any person can intentionally ruin the team's chances of winning. Being democratic here means being open to other people's input, and recognizing that you might not have all the answers.

4. Be positive: I hate typing this out, but in the PUG setting, for reasons noted above, you need to be positive (I am myself a virulent pessimist who hates positive-thinking types, but when it works, it works). This means avoiding negative language, but also avoid placing blame.

Put yourself in this Stalker's shoes:
Commander A: "Hey Stalker, what the F*** are you doing out there all alone? Don't wander off by yourself."
Commander B: "Hey Stalker, looks like the group is moving, don't get left behind!"

Commander A used offensive language, and also put the blame on the Stalker. Placing the blame puts the STK in a situation where he needs to defend his honor--in PUG life this is usually by swearing and then doing your own thing.

Commander B used neutral language to state a fact and gave some advice to the Stalker. By not placing blame, and invoking the group, the STK only has to think about what is best for himself and for the group in terms of victory, not personal egos.

Now ideally, "positive" is also forward-thinking, as "Lock Targets! Focus Fire!" instead of "Why doesn't anyone press R? Stop shooting at every little squirrel!" When necessary, I find that negative advice is best preceded by positive advice. So "Keep it tight, don't wander off" is more effective than a simple "don't wander off," and "You fatties look to the firing line, I'll take care of the Spider" is more effective than "Don't chase the squirrel!"

When it comes to build advice this is the most critical principle to keep in mind. Some people 100% don't give a **** about their builds, but many if not most put lots of thought into them and view criticism of their builds as personal criticism of themselves. So start with something positive ("Hey, I like that you're running a Marauder...") and then follow it up with constructive advice ("...but I think that those three MGs aren't really playing to its strengths. Try this....").

And keep in mind that they are putting LRMs in an Atlas for a reason--your job isn't to tell them that it's a stupid reason, but to give a reason that is better than their reason, one they hadn't thought of.

5. Be specific: If you have successfully adopted the preceding four, call people by name or by chassis. Alpha Lance. Assaults. Oxide. Stalker. Jables. This way people know who you are talking to and can respond accordingly. But if you address someone specifically to denigrate them, you'll only piss them off and work counter to your goals.

6. (Bonus Principle!) Be cool when people don't listen to you. They won't listen to you if you're a ****, but they won't always listen if you're nice.



TL;DR: Read the bold parts. Don't be a ****.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 27 May 2016 - 11:36 AM.


#16 El Bandito

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:47 PM

Hindsight is always 20/20. Therefore I try to give advice at the moment, not after.

#17 Cupid and Psyche _

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:04 PM

Tell them what would be in their best interest to do; do not guilt them with "you SHOULD be doing this" or "you SHOULD NOT be doing that". Basically, just offer suggestions and allow the PUGs to pick up on it.

It's to their own detriment if they don't listen, anyways! Posted Image

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"

Posted Image

#18 TLBFestus

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:10 PM

View PostAssaultPig, on 27 May 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:


well, somebody certainly seems like they're upset about something

if you just refrain from acting like an ******* and don't vomit out every thought that comes into your head, most people will take your advice at face value (assuming it's good advice, anyway)



Someone is wearing their cranky pants today. Please feel free to grab a sense of humor next time you go out.

:P

#19 Mole

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:17 PM

You know, I usually don't take command of a drop because I'm lazy and trying to relax and in order for me to relax I don't need to be barking out orders to a bunch of PUG players. However, when I do take command of a drop it's often with good results. I come on over VOIP and I tell the team "If we do X, then Y will happen. Let's do X. Everyone do X." PUG players have short attention spans. You can't just give them an order and expect it to be followed. They will forget. They will get side tracked. They will chase squirrels. If you're really serious about taking command of a situation in a PUG, you need to be present on comms at almost all times, reminding people of what their role is. It's also important that you lead by positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement. If you're calling everyone a bunch of idiots while you try to tell them what to do, of course they're not going to listen to you. This isn't the military. It is not your job to strip these people of their individuality and make them work as a unit. They didn't sign up for that, thus they will not tolerate it. Instead, be sure to be aware when something good happens. Like when someone makes a good kill on the 'mech that you called as a primary target. Tell them they did a good job. Say "Good kill." and then move on to your next target. Whenever one of your orders is followed, compliment your team on a job well done. And if you win the match, don't forget to tell them all they did a great job. Being a friendly leader yields far better results in this game than being angry, whiny, and sour.

#20 Moldur

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:24 PM

My pregame pep talk is usually "Lets split up and die" if I'm on a losing streak, just to remind everyone not to do that.





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