287 replies to this topic

[IQcreditscore]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

Nobody here thinks it's a good think. Z is just saying he feels P2W brings more players.

P2W KEEPS players more than it attracts them. Between that and a very slight amount of paranoia about cheating on any level. Anything to keep the dunning kruger effect going for the bottom masses of players.

If you really play wot for any length of time you find that the 50k+ game players with the self awareness of hellen keller are extremely common. I would bet that anyone under a wn8 of say 700 which is equivalent to like psr6 or 7 (lol if they existed) couldn't even figure how to move their mechs. EVER. The interface is part of the problem for those long term DK effect whales to ever attempt this game.

How do you keep people beating their heads against the wall for that long? A multitude of ways but bringing out new content that is "the shiznit" then nerfing it to normality, along with a mass delusion of any decent player being a cheater. yeah everyones a winner.......

Premium rounds actually aren't even a problem in wot really. There's a very select few that can spam them a high % of the time but in many cases people carry a handful for that special occasion tank you run into. Some are actually a handicap against some tanks as they are heat and get swallowed by tracks or spaced armor. Probably wot's inability to control certain mods that give a slight advantage costs them more. Being a top 5%-10% player it makes a difference when facing one another. In potatoland not so much.

Edited by FLINTCOIN, 02 June 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[dervishx5]

WoW offers shortcuts to leveling, but since ships are grouped in tiers all it ends up doing is saving time rather than unbalancing the game (though you could make the argument that leveling your ships too fast puts you out of your skill range).

[MechWarrior319348]

I've made 2 new accounts for experimentation, you pretty much are thrown in against all tier 3 and 4 players. They have unlocked modules, leveled their mechs, and have made enough money to buy lots of gadgets, and etc.

This video might be a dramatic comparison, but I cant help imagining that its what new players feel when they get off that internet boat, and drop into MWO.

Edited by Delta 62, 02 June 2016 - 10:46 PM.

[Anjian]

With regards to World of Warships, Wargaming decided to pull out the Nikolai rather than nerf it. Maybe the reason is hard to fathom on the MWO forums, but not on WG forums. Some time ago, someone did take legal action against Wargaming, and in turns out that even with EULAs, the altering of a product, even a digital one, after transaction is made and received, can run afoul with certain customer protection laws of certain countries (I suspect, either Russia or the EU or both).

Hence whey WG has taken a very precautionary stance of premiums. They release it only two weeks now, determine by statistics if the product is overpowered, and instead of nerfing it, simply won't bring it back. The lucky guys who bought it gets to keep it but since the numbers are limited, they won't affect much the general population. Should the product not demonstrate being OP by their satisfaction, it can have a permanent fixture or repeated offerings in the premium store (see Tirpitz, Blyskawika, etc,.)

In paper, its hard to predict the Nikolai would be overpowered. The firing rate is the lowest of any battleship. The Wyoming has better muzzle velocities. The Nikolai lacks any AA. Its not the fastest nor the most amored of any battleship. What it has is a very clean, minimal superstructure, four well placed turrets, that allows 12 guns to be brought to bear even at aggressive and liberal angles. In other words, the ship is a killer not because of its paper stats, but because of superior turret geometry.

We will see how Wargaming manages to treat other Russian battleships with a similar layout and turrets, like the Ganguts. But that won't be soon.

[ice trey]

Word of mouth, most likely.

A lot of the original population have left, because they've been snubbed as long-time Battletech/Mechwarrior setting fans while the devs here have had a raging erection over the e-sports community. A whole lot of not getting things done, and a whole lot more stale gameplay (Partly due to the players who've remained want nothing but different flavors of deathmatch). The rest of the players who haven't quit gnash their teeth and begrudgingly play because there's literally nothing else on the market for Battletech fans.

Most games get good reviews online. Most anyone that you wouldn't suspect to accept kickbacks has been talking badly about this title, and in spite of having been up and running since early 2012, besides an expansive list of mechs (of which only about 1/4 see use because the rest "Are trash"), the game hasn't spent much time evolving past "Beta in everything but name".

Also the devs here don't even pay attention to their own forums. It's all twitter and reddit.

World of Tanks, though... I've not really heard anything altogether negative about it besides it being a multiplayer-only free to play title. I don't play it, but the amount of backlash THIS game has had from the community was strong enough that when PGI/IGP tried to kickstart another computer game while MWO floundered, the people showed how much confidence they had that PGI/IGP could make a game that was fun, and likewise, that they wouldn't give PGI/IGP an out with a second cash-grab game.

tl;dr: MWO doesn't have the numbers because the people who were loyal fans of the franchise are very pissed and vocal.

Edited by ice trey, 02 June 2016 - 11:35 PM.

[PyckenZot]

ice trey, on 02 June 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

tl;dr: MWO doesn't have the numbers because the people who were loyal fans of the franchise are very pissed and vocal.

And just as many, if not more, loyal fans are still here. Don't confuse bitter table vets with other mechlovers,...
On the other PGI kickstarter, not sure if that was all due to the PGI/IGP rep,... I didn't step into that project for the same reason as I didn't in the wide array that came since. One doesn't simply copy-cat a Chris Roberts game! ^^

Back on topic. I remain by my stance, major reason of population difference is "well known tanks vs. obscure scifi setting". 'Nuff said.

What I do find weird is the perceived low population of Armored Warfare compared to WoT. Is it just my perception or is WoT truly that much more popular?

[Anjian]

PyckenZot, on 03 June 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

And just as many, if not more, loyal fans are still here. Don't confuse bitter table vets with other mechlovers,...
On the other PGI kickstarter, not sure if that was all due to the PGI/IGP rep,... I didn't step into that project for the same reason as I didn't in the wide array that came since. One doesn't simply copy-cat a Chris Roberts game! ^^

Back on topic. I remain by my stance, major reason of population difference is "well known tanks vs. obscure scifi setting". 'Nuff said.

What I do find weird is the perceived low population of Armored Warfare compared to WoT. Is it just my perception or is WoT truly that much more popular?

The alleged low population on the NA server seems confined to that side, but it seems the European and Russian servers are doing much better. This has a lot to do that while the developing studios are in California, the publishers are European based and has the largest portal in Russia. Anyway, even in the wee hours I have no problems finding coop matches in Armored Warfare. PvP matches though seems another thing. I get the feeling people just want to play PvE in AW to the detriment of PvP, but so long it brings AW some good bucks, yeah?

AW also suffers from being in the "third" syndrome. After War Thunder cleaned up those who refuse to buckle to Wargaming's, there isn't much space left for a third entrant. AW still seems to be on a beta stage, even if its public, and so they are still not pushing the marketing buttons.

I like AW because, first, I think I'm tired of playing tanks that belong to a museum. After years of getting accustomed to MWO which seems to suggest this is the limits of the CryEngine, suddenly in AW, everything looks like they blow my mind, much more detailed, much more realistic, huge maps, destructable environment --- it completely changed my mind what the limits of the CryEngine are and what you can do with it when you have good people working behind it. What they had done is nearly as good as War Thunder; WoT already looks well dated to the two (World of Warship's rendition of the Big Game engine is also something to behold). WoT is just one huge huge elephant --- people here don't seem to understand the sheer extent of it, this is one of the biggest online games around globally --- and because of that, it has sheer inertia and mass that will deafen the blows of even more technologically advanced rivals.

[Corrado]

PyckenZot, on 03 June 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

And just as many, if not more, loyal fans are still here. Don't confuse bitter table vets with other mechlovers,...
On the other PGI kickstarter, not sure if that was all due to the PGI/IGP rep,... I didn't step into that project for the same reason as I didn't in the wide array that came since. One doesn't simply copy-cat a Chris Roberts game! ^^

Back on topic. I remain by my stance, major reason of population difference is "well known tanks vs. obscure scifi setting". 'Nuff said.

What I do find weird is the perceived low population of Armored Warfare compared to WoT. Is it just my perception or is WoT truly that much more popular?

WOT is advertised everywhere. on TV, on google ads, on game review websites, everywhere. it's obvious.

[RedDragon]

wanderer, on 02 June 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I'm even curious if Paul actually codes, or if he's merely coming up with things and having others do the grunt work.

Why was I instantly thinking of this after reading that sentence?

[RedDragon]

PyckenZot, on 03 June 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

And just as many, if not more, loyal fans are still here. Don't confuse bitter table vets with other mechlovers,...
On the other PGI kickstarter, not sure if that was all due to the PGI/IGP rep,... I didn't step into that project for the same reason as I didn't in the wide array that came since. One doesn't simply copy-cat a Chris Roberts game! ^^

Well ... seeing that around 3 years ago PGI told us officially that only around 50% of the founders still logged in (which they btw thought was a success ...) - mind you, logged in, not actively playing - I would guess the number now is a loooot smaller. When they did that founders-poll some time ago, it had like 2000 votes, from 70.000 founders at the start of the game.
I'd be really surprised if there were more than 2000 founders still active right now.

[PyckenZot]

RedDragon, on 03 June 2016 - 01:49 AM, said:

Well ... seeing that around 3 years ago PGI told us officially that only around 50% of the founders still logged in (which they btw thought was a success ...) - mind you, logged in, not actively playing - I would guess the number now is a loooot smaller. When they did that founders-poll some time ago, it had like 2000 votes, from 70.000 founders at the start of the game.
I'd be really surprised if there were more than 2000 founders still active right now.

Don't confuse "founders" with loyal fans,...
Secondly, what poll?

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 02 June 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

I think that after introduction of WoT premium ammo, WoT has lost a lot of its share in the market.
And wows is so nice be cause they did not made same mistake.

The introduction? Gold ammo has existed in WoT since the very beginning- I've played since the Russian closed alpha. Premium consumables have existed since consumables were added at what coincided with the beginning of the NA server- patch 0.5.4. Prior to patch 8.1 premium ammo and consumables were only available for gold, meaning it was truly pay-to-win. Patch 8.1 changed that and allowed players to buy these things for credits earned in-game.

People will complain about P2W in WoT, but it truly is a gray area. There are no features available to a paying player that are not available to a free player, however shooting tons of gold ammo and playing lots of high tiers isn't economically feasible unless you either have premium, plays tons of games in premium tanks, or both. At some point WG draws blood from the people who play the most, either by enticing them to buy a premium tank to make money, or cash in on premium time.

At some point a player can collect a diverse enough number of tanks to play tournies and win loads of gold that way (I earned somewhere in the area of $400 worth of gold this way), but to reach that point you will almost certainly need to spend an equal amount on gold for garage slots, crews, consumables and ammo spent simply getting that good etc. By that point they've already broken even on you, and can make their buck off all the people trying to keep up.

WoWS will also change. They've already added premium consumables and afaik ammo is next. In any case the current business model of limited-offer releases of often exceptional ships like the Nikolai is pay to win.

[Zuesacoatl]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Absolutely. Though keep in mind, P2W (as yucky as I find it) is in no way like cheating/exploiting: It's fundamentally designed into the game, and is the developers intent.

With that said, yes, competitive players will do everything legitimately allowed to compete. That's basically what being competitive is: Taking every advantage you can to maximize your performance.

Some will take it further and cheat. That doesn't mean those players wouldn't play the game if they couldn't cheat, just that if they have the opportunity to cheat they will do so.

In my entire gaming life, I have never once heard of a player who wouldn't play a game if they couldn't buy an advantage. Never. I certainly don't say it never happens, mind you.

But you know what? I know LOTS of people who haven't played games specifically because they have P2W elements. I am one of these: I won't play games with P2W components. At all.

But you're arguing that having P2W results in gaining more players who'll only play a game if they can P2W than you lose by having P2W in the first place? That's ridiculous.

From a developer standpoint, it's more complex, because while P2W may cost you players overall, it's gaining you paying players, so financially speaking it can make sense.

The thing is Wintersdark, you are basing your experience off of what we have basically grown up with during our long time playing games. The new kids now-a-days want the easy gear road, and p2win is the ticket. I have personally never played warframe, but my son tells me it is p2win, and his friends love it because they can be the best just by dropping some coin. He had a sleep over the other night, and one of the guys was watching me play mwo, he liked the game overall, but when he asked if my YLW ***** everyone because it was a hero and I told him no, he called it lame and said it looked cool, but not worth his time if his heroes are not better. It is hard to see it because we hate p2win, but there are lots of people out there who only play those games, especially if it is mom and dads money that pays for it lol. But, as you said, I am not a p2win player, i hate games with that built into it. I loved a mecha game a few years ago, I can not remember the name of it, but they looked like gundams, it was great, till p2win and greed on the behalf of the developers came into play. I stopped playing pretty quick after that. The game folded not long after. It does take a balance to have a p2win scheme, I just wont play in those schemes.

[PassingWinds]

Anjian, on 31 May 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Go Russia

Awesome Ruski vid.. cool music too. At tier X stuff, this is very experienced player that makes it look easy.

For the benefit of the original poster, and adding my 3+ years of playing WoT Vs 6 months of MWO, this is my 2c worth.

For background info, this is an Aussie perspective.

WoT Vs MWO: Advertising
- I can't remember how I found WoT, but 1st saw MWO in a PC store playing a MWO demo
- Never seen a MWO advert (facebook, tv, randow internet ads)
- Had seen quite a few WoT ads on TV (a few locally, but alot more internationally, as I used to travel a far bit), many random internet ads, etc .. it's out there...
RESULT: WoT wins hands down for putting itself out there and getting known.

WoT Vs MWO: On the ground local events. Ie. MWO or WoT event in a town near you...
- As far as I am aware, local events don't exist in MWO
- MECHCON sounds cool, but I'll never ever going to Canada just to see this.
- WoT had "local" admins/co-ordinators for various regions. Eg. Tanthia was/is the admin/coordinator for Australia
- These "local" admins organised local event promoting WoT. Examples include:
- One WoT event I personally attended was in Perth, Western Australia for RFLAN. RFLAN is a 24hr LAN "party" for around 700 at a Perth Uni. From memory, about 50 tickets were made free from the WoT forum on a 1st come, 1st servers basis (about $50aus for 1 ticket). Free tickets, free pizza, and free "in game WoT stuff", purely for the RFLAN event like gold, decals, etc. A good time was had by all
- WoT seems to have quite a few local on the ground events in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Australia (take turns across the state capitals like Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, etc), at least a couple times a year.
RESULT: WoT wins hands down for local events

WoT Vs MWO: Tech Trees / In-game Upgrade path
- MWO has a strange simple, yet complex/flexible system which I believe is confusing to a new player:
- the simple part (sorta .. once you've figured it out) is upgrading the mechs, once you've pick one from the store:
- Buy 1 mech (max the basic skills), get the other 2 mechs (max the basic skills for these 2 additional mechs, then you can max the elite skills on 3, then the master skills on all of em).
- the complex part is trying to figure out what mech to buy, then how to load the thing out:
- Choose either Inner Sphere or CLAN (and to be honest, I don't believe this is really know what the difference is when you first start out)
- Pick either light/med/heavy/assault (if you've figured out which one you want)
- Then figure out what loadout/weapons/setup you want (and as a new player, this was a WTF moment, until I found the meta site, because some of the default MWO loadouts really suck balls).
Summary: I've found the MWO upgrade path far less grindy to max out 1 mech type. But to a new player, this is almost too much choice, too earlier, with all the options you have to choose: IS or Clan?, Light/Medium/Heavy/Assault?, Mech loadout???? (if not choosing the default loadout, which really suck on some mechs).

- WoT has quite a simple, yet grindy upgrade tree system
- Pick the country you want to play
- Then start at that country's Tier 1 (basic light tank), where you usually have to complete the upgrades for that tank (tracks/turret/gun/engine /radio), before you can go Tier 2.
- Then Rinse and repeat the Tier 2 tank, Tier 3, etc, until you get to Tier 10.
Along the way, you get to choose your own upgrade tree path where you can branch off into the different type of tanks at each Tier - light/med/heavy/arty/TD.
Summary: The WoT upgrade path is alot more simplier and easier to understand. But due to this simplicity, it's alot more grindy to get to the Tier X you want.

Edited by PassingWinds, 03 June 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Adrius ADI Manthays]

Hm…

No Marketing No Spots No enough Info about BattleTech or MechWarrior in Game. PGI forgott the Potential of the Big BT Universe to put this in MWO. About hunderds of Novels Hardware Books and another Stuff. You have only few of Text of House and Clan on the MWO Homepage. And thats all. Many of new Players asked me. What is BT what is a Mech or anything else. Why we have no Infos about this Universe in Game. Why MWO didn‘t have a Cool Atmospheric Intro about MechWarrior after MWO Client Start? I understand you need Money but only MechPacks as EndContent? I‘m a old MW Player and i understood 100% Simulation or slow Game don‘t work with young People today. All wont be a Hero with 12 Kills after One Minute! But my feelings in my Mech is i‘m seat not in a Mech of Tons of Steel. I‘m seat in a Trooper Suit with few of Weapons. Thats all. Lights are the Assaults. Assaults are the Light Class? The Easy One Button Alphas Domination Destroy this Game from beginning! And the Maps are Terrible i can live with the Maps in QuickPlay but in CW/FW what to Hell are you thinking. This is the Galaxy Planet War? Who is the BattleTech Universe Live Action? Destroy only Big Doors and Big Flak Cannon on **** small Tunnel Maps. I will Destroy a Fuel Depot i will conquest a big city with many of realistic Targets. I will Rearm or Repair my Mech on the Map. I will have a BattleTime of 60 Minutes! I will have a Big ****** Map with Motivation Stuff! Why you don‘t copy and paste the Old Maps from the Old MechWarrior or Mech Commander Games? Or put the all QuickPlay Maps in CW/FW and put of this maps interresting targets to Defend or Attack!

Are you interesting to rescue MWO or you will only sell MechPacks and few month later the MWO Server go in OFF Status?

SRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH

rgr&out

Edited by Adrius ADI Manthays, 03 June 2016 - 06:54 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FLINTCOIN, on 02 June 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

Premium rounds actually aren't even a problem in wot really. There's a very select few that can spam them a high % of the time but in many cases people carry a handful for that special occasion tank you run into. Some are actually a handicap against some tanks as they are heat and get swallowed by tracks or spaced armor. Probably wot's inability to control certain mods that give a slight advantage costs them more. Being a top 5%-10% player it makes a difference when facing one another. In potatoland not so much.

Der, cuz if you play with half a brain and 2 ounces of coordination and teamwork, you dont need gold rounds. I think I fired 10 gold rounds in my 4600 some odd games in WoT. Some early on just to see what they would do, and a few later when they were made Standard ammo. I used some ot nuke a few King Tigers with my T29, I used a few more to bounce off the flat sides of point blank tanks and a few more to bounce off the front of an IS-7. I got 1 penetration. Honestly, I wasnt that impressed with them. I just learned to use the standard ammo and not shoot what I probably cant pen.

[RedDragon]

PyckenZot, on 03 June 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

Don't confuse "founders" with loyal fans,...
Secondly, what poll?

I don't. But most of "the people who were loyal fans of the franchise" are founders, I'd guess. After all those people are so loyal to the franchise that they spend money on a game that's free to play AND is not even out yet. You don't have to be a founder to be a loyal fan, but a huge percentage of the founders consisted of those people most loyal to Battletech and Mechwarrior. And when you see that from those guys who throw (lots of) their money at the sole promise of a new MW game only a fraction are still playing your game, you should realize that something is really wrong.

[Crushko]

The reason why I think that Mechwarrior has become so niche, is because it didnt have a singleplayer game for 14 years. Can you believe it? And MW: 4 Mercs didnt age well.

My hope is that they do a Mechwarrior 5 singleplayer game using the excellent MWO art assets. I think this is neccessary to bring the Mechwarrior franchise back to the spotlight - where it belongs. And if people buy MW 5 - many of them will also check out MWO.

Edited by Crushko, 03 June 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[WarHippy]

Anjian, on 02 June 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

With regards to World of Warships, Wargaming decided to pull out the Nikolai rather than nerf it. Maybe the reason is hard to fathom on the MWO forums, but not on WG forums. Some time ago, someone did take legal action against Wargaming, and in turns out that even with EULAs, the altering of a product, even a digital one, after transaction is made and received, can run afoul with certain customer protection laws of certain countries (I suspect, either Russia or the EU or both).

Hence whey WG has taken a very precautionary stance of premiums. They release it only two weeks now, determine by statistics if the product is overpowered, and instead of nerfing it, simply won't bring it back. The lucky guys who bought it gets to keep it but since the numbers are limited, they won't affect much the general population. Should the product not demonstrate being OP by their satisfaction, it can have a permanent fixture or repeated offerings in the premium store (see Tirpitz, Blyskawika, etc,.)

In paper, its hard to predict the Nikolai would be overpowered. The firing rate is the lowest of any battleship. The Wyoming has better muzzle velocities. The Nikolai lacks any AA. Its not the fastest nor the most amored of any battleship. What it has is a very clean, minimal superstructure, four well placed turrets, that allows 12 guns to be brought to bear even at aggressive and liberal angles. In other words, the ship is a killer not because of its paper stats, but because of superior turret geometry.

We will see how Wargaming manages to treat other Russian battleships with a similar layout and turrets, like the Ganguts. But that won't be soon.

So they end up releasing a really OP ship from time to time, but instead of balancing it they just stop selling it? That is really disgusting. I'm also not sure I buy into that court case situation because if that actually worked how does any game ever made get away with changes to premium content?

[Mavairo]

WarHippy, on 03 June 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

So they end up releasing a really OP ship from time to time, but instead of balancing it they just stop selling it? That is really disgusting. I'm also not sure I buy into that court case situation because if that actually worked how does any game ever made get away with changes to premium content?

Depends on the game... and how timid the company is in regards to lawsuits.
Just look at how long it took PGI to find the stones to start releasing Unseen mechs, from the mere POSSIBLE threat of a suit from Harmony Gold (Cursed Be It's Name)

All of the other premium ships, aside from the Sims and the Kitakami they intend on keeping released. Those two are just so laughably bad that they couldn't justify the resources on fixing them.

Wargaming has a vested interest in making sure the ships are within the powercurve of each other. They would much rather be able to sell the ships over and over again, and not have one run roughshod over the other. (for one it lessens the sales of other ships)

The problem is..no one's perfect. The Nikolai's case is one of those cases where to remove what makes it so good would require a complete geometry rework from the ground up, or a fundamental change in game mechanics that would involve them rewriting EVERYTHING from the ground up. It really is one of those cases where no one really could have predicted just how good the Nikolai would be. Even guys on this forum, who haven't seen, or played with or against one frequently don't see how it could have been broken. It's one of those deals that it's execution has to be seen in the wild. The Nikolai, is a real ship that in Real Life, wasn't a good Battleship..it was barely mediocre for her time. It's only because the game mechanics exist in a particular way that favors the Nikolai, (and the game came WAY before Nikolai) that the Nikolai is so good. It's paper stats, literally don't lend any credence what so ever to an OverPerformer. It just Happened.

It's something you have to see to know, kind of deal.
Wargaming, is well aware of a few lawsuits that floated around, where such changes necessary to make the ship, Balanced would turn it into a different product all together, essentially. It'd be like buying a Clan Mech, lets say a Timberwolf, only to have a Thunderbolt delivered to you instead. That's what changing the Nikolai to become balanced would be like.

That or you started the game up the next week only to find the entire core game mechanics have shifted.

Basically the situation was A: No one actually cares about the Russian Navy. It's a Joke in history and likely will be the day all of us die. Therefore not enough people bought the Nikolai to justify the expenditure of resources to fix it, or completely redo the entire game's basic premise of defense (angling your ship against incoming fire to bounce shells, while weighing when to expose your own ship to bring your guns fully to bare).
B: it didn't sell that well, even when it was for sale and people started seeing the results trickling in.
C: It wasn't on sale long enough for the comparatively small -individual- data sampling (read anecdotal level) to perceive it's imbalance vs say, Tier 4s, Tier 3s, being competitive /better than ONE of the Tier 5 BBs, and still getting Stomped by T6 BBs.
D: The easiest solution then, and the least costly option to Wargaming, lawsuits not even factored in was to simply pull the ship from sale, and let the guys that bought it keep her.

Edited by Mavairo, 03 June 2016 - 11:10 AM.