22 replies to this topic

[mechchao999]

While I was reading the CBT rules, I had a question. I understand that a pilot of a mech definitely dies if the head is destroyed, takes 6 hits, CT ammo explosion, etc., but what about engine destruction or regular CT destruction? All the rules say is that the pilot is "not necessarily killed". I tried looking through some of the scenario rules, and I couldn't find anything. Is there really any official rule on determining pilot death like this?

[Stormwolf]

Engine destruction does not kill the pilot normally, a engine explosion does if he/she did not eject.

[Kifferson von doober]

if i remember correctly, that was covered for tabletop in the 1st ed mechwarrior rpg rulebook. even gave tables for injuries incurred with botched ejections (lost limbs etc!). not sure about 2nd ed though.

[DeezNutz 2]

Head shot death is the price we piloting walking tanks with big windows. Maybe we could borrow shield technology from Star Trek...LOL

[Thaygood]

Aleast we don't realy die, just hit the reset and you're back again.

Edited by Thaygood, 19 July 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Beazle]

Loss of center torso does not kill a pilot automatically. (Engine explosion is an optional rule added for players who like things to blow up, but doesn't follow the "canon" explanation of how a fusion engine works)

Only total head destruction, and cockpit crits (or lifesupport crits possibly, if your in a hostile enviroment) do that.

Other things can cause the pilot to eject, which may cause injury/death.

The primary exception to this is pilots who disable their auto-eject. Do that without CASE, and there is a pretty good chance your gonna die the first time you get an ammo critical.

[mechchao999]

So if you win the battle, you should be able to recover your pilot from a destroyed mech for use in another battle, as long as they haven't taken 6 hits, had the cockpit destroyed, or blown up from an engine/ammo explosion?

[Sychodemus]

MechWarrior Survival: The MechWarrior dies when the destruction/loss of the head or cockpit occurs, or if the center torso is destroyed by an ammunition explosion or area-effect weapon. If the center torso is destroyed in any other fashion, the MechWarrior does not automatically die. CASE mounted in the center torso does not protect a MechWarrior from a center torso ammo explosion. [Or if the MechWarrior sustains six damage points from head hits, ammunition explosions, falls or excessive heat.]

Source: Total Warfare

[Beazle]

Sychodemus, on 16 July 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

MechWarrior Survival: The MechWarrior dies when the destruction/loss of the head or cockpit occurs, or if the center torso is destroyed by an ammunition explosion or area-effect weapon. If the center torso is destroyed in any other fashion, the MechWarrior does not automatically die. CASE mounted in the center torso does not protect a MechWarrior from a center torso ammo explosion. [Or if the MechWarrior sustains six damage points from head hits, ammunition explosions, falls or excessive heat.]

Source: Total Warfare

Correct, i forgot about center torso ammo explosions. (who puts ammo there anyway? it's one of those things that never comes up)

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So if you win the battle, you should be able to recover your pilot from a destroyed mech for use in another battle, as long as they haven't taken 6 hits, had the cockpit destroyed, or blown up from an engine/ammo explosion?

Assuming he wasn't killed by any random artillery strikes, or other AOE type damage after he ejected, or that he's not in a hostile enviroment (vacuum, poison gass, unbearable heat ect), yes. Pilots live through the loss of their mechs more often than not. Often they even return to ride the same "destroyed" mech into battle again. (not all things that count as destruction are permanent, things like gyro hits, and engine hits can be repaired as long as the CT wasn't completely destroyed)

If you want extra realism in games, you can use the rules for ejection, then place the ejected mechwarrior on the map as an individual. Then you can play out whether or not he is hit by anything, or killed deliberately by enemy forces. I do this myself during RP campaigns.

Edited to avoid filter, it kicks out the strangest things some times...

Edited by Beazle, 16 July 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[Skylarr]

Quote

DAMAGING A WARRIOR
The following section provides a brief overview of how damage aff ects warriors piloting or driving diff erent units. For greater detail, see the appropriate Combat sections. MechWarriors Three types of damage to a ’Mech can also damage the MechWarrior inside: head hits, falling and internal ammunition explosions. In addition, excessive heat buildup can harm the MechWarrior if the ’Mech’s life support system takes damage. A MechWarrior can take up to 5 points of damage before dying from injuries. The sixth point of damage kills the warrior.


Head Hits: The MechWarrior takes 1 point of damage whenever the ’Mech’s head is hit, even if the hit does not penetrate the ’Mech’s armor.


Falling: If a ’Mech falls, the controlling player must make a Piloting Skill Roll for the MechWarrior. If the roll fails, the warrior takes 1 point of damage. (If the MechWarrior is unconscious or the ’Mech is shutdown, such a fall automatically damages the warrior.)

Ammunition Explosions: An internal ammunition or Gauss explosion causes 2 points of damage to the MechWarrior as a result of the electric shock he receives through his neurohelmet.

Excess Heat: When life support systems take a critical hit, the MechWarrior suff ers 1 point of damage every turn that the ’Mech’s internal heat is 15 or higher on the heat scale at the end of the Heat Phase. Every turn that the heat is 26 or higher causes 2 points of damage to the MechWarrior if his or her life support system is down.

Total Warfare Page 41
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’MECHS
A ´Mech is considered destroyed and out of the game if its MechWarrior dies or the ´Mech suff ers three engine hits (remember to count engine slots in the side torso if that torso is destroyed). The destruction of the head, cockpit or center torso has the same eff ects and renders a ’Mech destroyed. MechWarrior Survival: The MechWarrior dies when the destruction/loss of the head or cockpit occurs, or if the center torso is destroyed by an ammunition explosion or area-eff ect weapon. If the center torso is destroyed in any other fashion, the MechWarrior does not automatically die. CASE mounted in the center torso does not protect a MechWarrior from a center torso ammo explosion.

Total Warfare Page 128
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Head Blown Off (Head)
A hit blows off a ’Mech’s head when the player rolls a 12 on the Determining Critical Hits Table for the head hit location. This critical hit destroys the ’Mech’s head, kills the MechWarrior and puts the ’Mech out of commission for the rest of the game.

Total Warfare Pages 126 -127

Which one is correct? The second one appears to refer to what is considered a destroyed Mech and is removed from the Map. I feel the GM should do what is right to keep the PCs alive as long a possible. Especially new players.

Edited by Skylarr, 17 July 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[Skylarr]

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DAMAGE TO VEHICLE PILOTS/MECHWARRIORS
In some cases, such as extreme overheating, falling or certain critical hits, the pilot or crew of a vehicular unit (other than battle armor) may suff er personal damage. The MechWarrior/Pilot/Crew Damage Table translates the normal Total Warfare eff ects on any non-battle armor vehicular unit’s crew or pilots into A Time of War AP/BD damage values. Because they aff ect characters strapped into a vehicular unit, the damage is eff ectively controlled, and the eff ects are not directly applied by an attack (but rather are merely a secondary result), this damage is not modifi ed for MoS/ MoF eff ects under normal combat rules. Damage-aff ecting Traits such as Glass Jaw and Toughness apply to this damage after any applicable armor eff ects are applied.

MechWarrior
Damage from Falling Damage (AP/BD) 1M/3
Internal Ammunition Explosion Damage (AP/BD) 0E/4D*
Center Torso Destroyed by Artillery Damage (AP/BD) 10X/20

A Time Of War Page 217

[mechchao999]

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Assuming he wasn't killed by any random artillery strikes, or other AOE type damage after he ejected, or that he's not in a hostile enviroment (vacuum, poison gass, unbearable heat ect), yes. Pilots live through the loss of their mechs more often than not. Often they even return to ride the same "destroyed" mech into battle again. (not all things that count as destruction are permanent, things like gyro hits, and engine hits can be repaired as long as the CT wasn't completely destroyed)

If you want extra realism in games, you can use the rules for ejection, then place the ejected mechwarrior on the map as an individual. Then you can play out whether or not he is hit by anything, or killed deliberately by enemy forces. I do this myself during RP campaigns.

Edited to avoid filter, it kicks out the strangest things some times...

Can MWs eject after the mech has been destroyed? I was under the understanding that if they survive, they just stay in the mech, or just kick open the cockpit and run. And if the CT is destroyed does that 1. Disqualify it for salvage? and 2. I'm guessing that the MW still survives, but is the mech totally wrecked? Also, if he's in a hostile environment and his engine is destroyed or CT is destroyed, would he still live, as long as he stays in the cockpit? I don't know how he'd get out though.

[Sychodemus]

mechchao999, on 16 July 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Can MWs eject after the mech has been destroyed? I was under the understanding that if they survive, they just stay in the mech, or just kick open the cockpit and run. And if the CT is destroyed does that 1. Disqualify it for salvage? and 2. I'm guessing that the MW still survives, but is the mech totally wrecked? Also, if he's in a hostile environment and his engine is destroyed or CT is destroyed, would he still live, as long as he stays in the cockpit? I don't know how he'd get out though.

A 'Mech cannot be salvaged at all of its CT was destroyed (i.e. all internal structure is marked off) by an ammo explosion or area-effect weapon. If the CT is destroyed in any other way, then the 'Mech cannot be made functional again, but components may be salvaged. (See Strategic Operations for more details.)

As for Ejection, see Tactical Operations for a much more detailed set of rules. If the CT is destroyed by anything besides an ammo-explosion/area-effect, then the MW is still alive. Generally, ejection is to activate automatically or manually and each has its merits. A Mechwarrior can leave his cockpit via ejection or by climbing out of the hatch or open canopy, etc.
As far as I know, a pilot can still eject regardless of the condition of the Mech (i.e. destroyed or shutdown.) There are exceptions, of course, such as full-head ejection systems which can be damaged.
Ultimately, this has no real effect on regular gameplay. For roleplaying purposes, go with whatever makes a good and fun story.

[Sychodemus]

Skylarr, on 16 July 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Which one is correct? the second one appears to refer to what mech is considered a destroyed mech and removed from the Map. I feel the GM should do what is right to keep the PCs alive as long a possible. Especially new players.

They are all correct.

The first covers how MechWarriors take damage.

The second one covers both 'Mech destruction and MechWarrior Survival as separate aspects.

The third one is a critical hit result.

But, I agree that unless it is a tournament, GMs should do what is best for the game.

[Skylarr]

In past rules if the Auto Eject was "ON" on the Mech Record Sheet the Pilot would auotmatically eject when there was an Ammo explosion. Then the Pilot only took Ejection Damage. Unless he had ahard to find item call a "Circiut Interupt", Star League Tech, That could prevent damage to Mechwarrior.

It is always safer to stay inside the Mech. Fusion Explosions being one of them. A Fusion explosion was known to kill all infantry instanstly withing a certain range. So stay inside your cockpit until after the fighting was done. In many yrs of TT I have seen amny players die becasue they got out of their Mech on purpose.

There are rules out for using a War Chest system to repair Mechs. My group uses it for speed up play. There is a rule in there for bringing a destroyed Mech to salvage quality then to to bring it up to operational value. But, from what I understand that Mech will cost allot in general maintanence. Generally when a Mech looses its Center Torso it is unrepairable and the remain parts are stripped.

I had a Mech in a campain were the Mech that I was piloting had been in my family for 300 years. This was a long campain and had done many missions in the Merc Unit. Then one day in intense fighting the Mech lost its left and center torso. My actions saved the unit. I was able to Role Play with the Comander. I persuaded him to rebuild those two areas. So my 300 year old Family Mech had what I considered a heart Transplant.

The Cockpit is only destroyed when it takes damage. I have seen a Mech die because it Center Torso collapsed. The Pilot roade it out and took falling damage. He was in a cluster of several Mech. Two other Mech Fusioned near it. The Destroyed Mech took damage from the Fusion Explosion. The cockpit took damage, but, not enough to break the armor.

[Beazle]

mechchao999, on 16 July 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Can MWs eject after the mech has been destroyed? I was under the understanding that if they survive, they just stay in the mech, or just kick open the cockpit and run. And if the CT is destroyed does that 1. Disqualify it for salvage? and 2. I'm guessing that the MW still survives, but is the mech totally wrecked? Also, if he's in a hostile environment and his engine is destroyed or CT is destroyed, would he still live, as long as he stays in the cockpit? I don't know how he'd get out though.

It depends on how they were "destroyed".

I know it seems weird, but this is actually a grey area. For example, a mech that loses it's Gryo to 2 hits it considered "destroyed" in a BT game. That is, it is taken out of play as it is incapable of doing anything. Is that mech really destryoed? No. They gyro can be replaced. Every thing that is still intact on the record sheet would be available for salvage. The pilot would still be alive, and would have no need to eject (but would be able to if he wanted, although just climbing out a hatch is safer when your mech is prone). Even if he was in a hostile enviroment, the pilot should still be alive (He still has power and lifesupport as well as head integrity).

Ejection and simply climbing out of a cockpit is always an option. The ejection is sealed system of explosive bolts to blow a hatch, and some sort of propellent to shoot the chair free. It doesn't require any other system to be active to use it. Depending on which rules you use, and the situation your in, it can, however, be dangerous to use.

Picture ejection on a rocket propelled seat out of the top of your mechs head.
Now picture your mech inside a building, with a very solid roof over it's head.

If it's an option, it's usually safer to just ride things out in your mech.

There are reasons NOT to do that though. If your unit is on a raid, is in retreat, or behind enemy lines, you may not be able to stick around after the fight to pull pilots out of their cockpits. In that case, a pilot may want to eject, so he can be picked up by a friendly unit, or flee the battle field on foot rather than risk capture.

In one battle (part of a campaign i'm GMing) recently, a pilot for a perfectly functional Atlas chose to eject in the middle of a battle. When we asked him why, he stated that he knew his side was going to win (they had a significant advantage), and his mech's armor was down to tissue paper (it had been the focus of most of the enemy fire so far). He decided to eject, making it so his mech was no longer a target, rather than run the risk of ammo explosion, or critical hits on systems he wouldn't be able to repair in time for the next fight. Since armor and ejection seats are fairly quick repairs, his mech was able to join in the next fight in perfect working order. The pilot went into the fight a little battered, but the mech was fine.

I cannot stress enough that fusion explosions are an OPTIONAL rule. Personally, i think it's a poor one.

[mechchao999]

Beazle, on 17 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

It depends on how they were "destroyed".

I know it seems weird, but this is actually a grey area. For example, a mech that loses it's Gryo to 2 hits it considered "destroyed" in a BT game. That is, it is taken out of play as it is incapable of doing anything. Is that mech really destryoed? No. They gyro can be replaced. Every thing that is still intact on the record sheet would be available for salvage. The pilot would still be alive, and would have no need to eject (but would be able to if he wanted, although just climbing out a hatch is safer when your mech is prone). Even if he was in a hostile enviroment, the pilot should still be alive (He still has power and lifesupport as well as head integrity).

Ejection and simply climbing out of a cockpit is always an option. The ejection is sealed system of explosive bolts to blow a hatch, and some sort of propellent to shoot the chair free. It doesn't require any other system to be active to use it. Depending on which rules you use, and the situation your in, it can, however, be dangerous to use.

Picture ejection on a rocket propelled seat out of the top of your mechs head.
Now picture your mech inside a building, with a very solid roof over it's head.

If it's an option, it's usually safer to just ride things out in your mech.

There are reasons NOT to do that though. If your unit is on a raid, is in retreat, or behind enemy lines, you may not be able to stick around after the fight to pull pilots out of their cockpits. In that case, a pilot may want to eject, so he can be picked up by a friendly unit, or flee the battle field on foot rather than risk capture.

In one battle (part of a campaign i'm GMing) recently, a pilot for a perfectly functional Atlas chose to eject in the middle of a battle. When we asked him why, he stated that he knew his side was going to win (they had a significant advantage), and his mech's armor was down to tissue paper (it had been the focus of most of the enemy fire so far). He decided to eject, making it so his mech was no longer a target, rather than run the risk of ammo explosion, or critical hits on systems he wouldn't be able to repair in time for the next fight. Since armor and ejection seats are fairly quick repairs, his mech was able to join in the next fight in perfect working order. The pilot went into the fight a little battered, but the mech was fine.

I cannot stress enough that fusion explosions are an OPTIONAL rule. Personally, i think it's a poor one.

Yeah, I don't really play with the fusion meltdown rule either, it doesn't make sense because of how the reactors work. It's kind of weird that this wouldn't really be defined in the game rules, but I suppose it doesn't really matter that much, it was just a question that came up in one of our games. Last question, so what's the difference between climbing out of the cockpit and ejecting. If you don't have to make any piloting rolls for climbing out of the cockpit, why don't people just do that?

[Skylarr]

mechchao999, on 17 July 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't really play with the fusion meltdown rule either, it doesn't make sense because of how the reactors work. It's kind of weird that this wouldn't really be defined in the game rules, but I suppose it doesn't really matter that much, it was just a question that came up in one of our games. Last question, so what's the difference between climbing out of the cockpit and ejecting. If you don't have to make any piloting rolls for climbing out of the cockpit, why don't people just do that?

A Fusion explosion is not a real Fusion Explosion. You have an engine with supper heated gasses inside. Everytime an engine recieves 4 critical hits it has a chance to loose stability and blow up. This means that the pressure was to much for the engines safety feature to handle.

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Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". The Thermal Expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

It is an optioaml rule. I like the rule. I play several times a month and do not see it on a regular bases. Now that the campain I am in is in the late 50's and XL engines are everywere it is even rarer.


Why would a pilot eject out of a Mech. It all depends on the situation.

Beazle, on 17 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

In one battle (part of a campaign i'm GMing) recently, a pilot for a perfectly functional Atlas chose to eject in the middle of a battle. When we asked him why, he stated that he knew his side was going to win (they had a significant advantage), and his mech's armor was down to tissue paper (it had been the focus of most of the enemy fire so far). He decided to eject, making it so his mech was no longer a target, rather than run the risk of ammo explosion, or critical hits on systems he wouldn't be able to repair in time for the next fight. Since armor and ejection seats are fairly quick repairs, his mech was able to join in the next fight in perfect working order. The pilot went into the fight a little battered, but the mech was fine.

This was a smart move. I have a problem with players who send mechs into a fight not caring if the mechs makes it out or not. Most Mechs are family owned handed down from generation to generation. A Mechwarrior who looses his Mech may not get it replaced unless he can show he got it destroyed doing somethng major. Even then it might not be the same weight class.

[mechchao999]

Skylarr, on 17 July 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

A Fusion explosion is not a real Fusion Explosion. You have an engine with supper heated gasses inside. Everytime an engine recieves 4 critical hits it has a chance to loose stability and blow up. This means that the pressure was to much for the engines safety feature to handle.

But that's not how the safety features work. When the outer wall is breached, it immediately shuts down, and the massive tungsten shielding of the engine makes sure that it can shut down before the wall is completely breached. And usually if it is breached, the containment cells get damaged, the vacuum is gone, and the plasma touches the walls, and it's gone. While I like that they make it so it doesn't happen often, it is extremely rare and should happen less often then that. They even say that they only put the rule in because some players want the game to be more explosive.

Also, I don't want to be a massive jerk, but could you please try to type more carefully? It's sometimes hard to read your posts.

[Beazle]

mechchao999, on 17 July 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't really play with the fusion meltdown rule either, it doesn't make sense because of how the reactors work. It's kind of weird that this wouldn't really be defined in the game rules, but I suppose it doesn't really matter that much, it was just a question that came up in one of our games. Last question, so what's the difference between climbing out of the cockpit and ejecting. If you don't have to make any piloting rolls for climbing out of the cockpit, why don't people just do that?

Well, honestly most ejections are automatic, due to ammo explosions.

Beyond that, climbing out of a mech is kinda a grey area in the rules. Generally it's only done if the mech is prone. I don't think i've seen anything in the most recent version of the rules about climing in and out of a mech during combat (although i may have missed it). If your playing with the RP rules, your GM might force you to make climb checks to avoid falling off.

If your mech is still upright, then it may become a target, and that would turn your mechwarrior into an very ineffective form of ablative armor. Then even if a pilot does survive a slow climb under fire down his mech, he's still right there at it's feet.

Ejecting is alot faster, and it's clear to anybody looking that your mech is no longer being piloted (a chair flying on rockets being fairly noticeable) and therefore not a threat worth shooting at. In addition, it puts your pilot a full hex behind the Mech, hopefully out of the line of fire.

As a side note, the pilting skill rolls for ejecting are fairly easy, unless your in a horrible situation. (Prone, inside a building ect) and failure usually only results in a point of two of damage.