27 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Inner Sphere LRMs weigh twice as much as Clan versions and take up almost twice as many slots...

So, are IS LRMs really balanced to be twice as good as Clan LRMs?

[Mazzyplz]

oh and that's not all, the same is true for SRMS

[Ultimax]

Massed IS LRM 5s are at any rate.

[Mazzyplz]

we're supposed to accept the clanners have better missiles and similar lasers but worse autocannons.. mmmm i don't know if the ratio on this is perfect but the game does seem to be fairly balanced jenner iic/o notwithstanding

[wanderer]

Clantech LRMs have their disadvantages, but the biggest one is having very few missile-quirked 'Mechs, and none of those get the full treatment. Mad Dogs can get 10% cooldown+velocity quirks on pods but they only allow single launchers per torso. (MDogPrime). And the one that gets LRM/SRM tighter clusters really doesn't have the tonnage to drop on bigger launchers to take advantage of it (Summoner). Going the LRM5 route is doable, but again- it doesn't get much help (Scrow, MDog) and ends up dealing with the generic ROF and heat load.

The one real advantage is sheer quantity of firing tubes per ton. Getting LRM60+ on Orion IICs is probably their one saving grace as pretty much everything else, a Timber Wolf does better- but they can toss huge numbers of missiles for the weight and with few drawbacks. Even dinky little Kit Foxes can put 20+ tubes downrange and have enough tonnage left over for a respectable ammo load.

[Gorgo7]

I'd say they are on a par with PPC's

[Moldur]

The general formula goes:

Clan stuff weighs less, has better range, and doesn't work as well 'mechanically' for whatever reason, be it heat, duration, or split projectiles.

Innersphere stuff weighs more, has worse range, but assuming they can be brought to bear, they gets to have lower heat, lower duration, and unsplit projectiles.


There is also some weird **** that everyone continues to argue about though,
-Clan vs IS XL engines
-Damage difference between SRMs
-Clan vs IS laser damage.
-Locked and unlocked components

Why is there this weird stuff? Because even though lore went out the window the second PGI decided to have the two factions be "equal but different," there are still people fighting tooth and nail to keep us from completely breaking lore. If we made everything truly equal, it would make MWO break lore like 90% instead of... 89.99%, a cost far too great to make the game balanced.




Is it fair? Probably not. Is it close? Eh, not too far off. Still, that .01% of Lore hold-over really screws with things for what? For what purpose?

[Wintersdark]

Prosperity Park, on 02 June 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

Inner Sphere LRMs weigh twice as much as Clan versions and take up almost twice as many slots...

So, are IS LRMs really balanced to be twice as good as Clan LRMs?

When you add:

1) This is part of the reason IS mechs sport massive structural quirks, which while not terrible great vs. PP & PPFLD weapons, are extremely valuable vs. spread weapons like LRM's and SRM's.

2) IS LRM's suffer dramatically less loss to AMS

3) Most missile focused IS mechs also sport missile quirks.



Yeah, directly comparing the two hardly seems fair - IS launchers are twice the size, and only do roughly 10% more DPS base, and (LRM and SRM both) have tighter spread. But immediately they're impacted by missile quirks.

HBK 4J, even though it's not the monster it was, is firing at 35% cooldown, 10% heat, and 10% velocity. That's a tremendous difference.

Obviously, if the weapons where closer, the quirks would be less necessary, but then we may as well just go mixtech and give up.




Ultimately, this is a "whole picture" issue. It's not like Clams are dominating IS v Clan balance now, after all.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

IS LRMs have one great advantage over C-LRMs. AMS piercing. It doesn't matter how many tubes you have in your C-LRM; if you have only a single launcher, a single AMS will block most of it because the missiles enter one at a time. IS LRMs bigger than 5 will penetrate AMS pretty easily because all the missiles enter the AMS protection bubble simultaneously and therefore only allows the AMS to shoot down 4-5 missiles per volley.

That's about it, though. If the target doesn't have AMS, C-LRM will stomp all over IS LRMs. They're just so much lighter, you can afford to bring a LOT more ammo. That being said, the massive quirkage on dedicated IS LRM boats make a lot of difference evening it out. There's that one HBK that fires LRM10s like a machinegun...

[Wintersdark]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 June 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

IS LRMs have one great advantage over C-LRMs. AMS piercing. It doesn't matter how many tubes you have in your C-LRM; if you have only a single launcher, a single AMS will block most of it because the missiles enter one at a time. IS LRMs bigger than 5 will penetrate AMS pretty easily because all the missiles enter the AMS protection bubble simultaneously and therefore only allows the AMS to shoot down 4-5 missiles per volley.

That's about it, though. If the target doesn't have AMS, C-LRM will stomp all over IS LRMs. They're just so much lighter, you can afford to bring a LOT more ammo. That being said, the massive quirkage on dedicated IS LRM boats make a lot of difference evening it out. There's that one HBK that fires LRM10s like a machinegun...

More ammo isn't always useful. The advantage Clan side is that Clan mechs can carry more other weapons. More ammo doesn't help, larger launchers are often a disadvantage instead of an advantage (LRM20's are horrible, 15's are pretty much mediocre at best) - so the tonnage savings result in better alternative weaponry.

What this means, in practice, is that Clan's are better at carrying LRM's in addition to other weapons, rather than being pushed into being a dedicated LRM boat.

As again, look at the actual stats equipped on a missile focused IS mech, as opposed to the base weapon stats. That's why those weapon quirks exist.

[El Bandito]

Clan LRMs are clearly better than IS LRMs. The abundance of LRM quirks for IS mechs is proof enough. Without quirks, I would 100% mount Clan launchers on my mechs, and not worry much about 180 meter minimum range, or firing inside a tunnel. I can actually pack BIG back-up weapons too, when bringing multiple Clan launchers--unlike the heavy as heck IS ones. Only IS LRM5 is worth boating without quirks nowadays.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 June 2016 - 05:43 PM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

Clan LRMs are clearly better than IS LRMs. The abundance of LRM quirks for IS mechs can been seen as proof. Without quirks, I would 100% mount Clan launchers on my mechs, and not worry much about 180 meter minimum range, or firing inside a tunnel.

Hence the quirks.

Not saying that's the right answer or how it should be, but... Hence the quirks.

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

Hence the quirks.

Not saying that's the right answer or how it should be, but... Hence the quirks.

It is not the right answer. It was never the right answer. Both factions' weapons/equipments at base were supposed to be balanced against each other, since PGI decided that Clan and IS tech are supposed to be equal. Currently that is not the case. Which results in weapons being sub-par without quirks, but passes as acceptable because some select few mechs have heavy quirks for them. Which is unacceptable, really. PGI recently balanced IS DHS against Clan DHS, and they should extend such tinkering to others. That way there will be less need for quirks, which is healthier for this game.

This logic should also apply to IS vs. Clan Gauss/ERPPC/LB10X/MG as well as equipments such as BAP/CAP/NARC/TAG, where Clan version offers benefits without drawbacks.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 June 2016 - 02:51 AM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 02 June 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

It is not the right answer. It was never the right answer. Both factions' weapons/equipments at base were supposed to be balanced against each other, since PGI decided that Clan and IS tech are supposed to be equal. This results in weapons being sub-par without quirks, but passes as acceptable because some select few mechs have heavy quirks for them. Which is unacceptable, really. PGI recently balanced IS DHS against Clan DHS, and they should extend such tinkering to others.

This logic should apply to IS vs. Clan Gauss/LB10X/MG as well as equipments such as BAP/CAP/NARC/TAG.

Yeah, I don't argue that at all.

I hate quirks, personally, but.. *sighs* It is what it is.

[Grimm Peaper]

Mazzyplz, on 02 June 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

oh and that's not all, the same is true for SRMS

Have you actually used Clan SRM? Because if you had, you'd know that clan SRM's have much larger spread. It takes artemis to get Clan SRM even close to IS in terms of spread, which means extra weight and pod space. By the time you factor in quirks, it's a wash between the 2.

Each side has it's advantages. Clan gets lighter weight but more spread. I.S. gets tighter groups but more weight. Each can be modified with Artemis but Clan will never be as tight as I.S. and I.S. can never get as light as Clan. Different but fair. It is not as lopsided as you make it out to be.

[Khobai]

clan LRMS are useless

twice as good as useless is still useless

therefore IS LRMS are useless

[Karl Streiger]

Grimm Peaper, on 03 June 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

Have you actually used Clan SRM? Because if you had, you'd know that clan SRM's have much larger spread. It takes artemis to get Clan SRM even close to IS in terms of spread, which means extra weight and pod space. By the time you factor in quirks, it's a wash between the 2.

Artemis on clan missiles only when you don't know what else to do. Otherwise spread shouldn't count as much when you lob twice as many missiles.

LiSong uses some accurate calculations ,
Ignoring the quirks because quirks shouldn't be a "balancing" tool. (we could really add Extra damage for Holly SRM missiles (CPLT Butterbee; Shadow Hawk; Warhammer vs ZombieMechs)

I might compare Jenner Oxide with 4 SRM4 vs Jenner II with 4 SRM6
none is triggering Ghost Heat
- oxide deals ~24.6 dmg at 90m; IIc 26.4 at 90m - so they almost equal

[PhoenixFire55]

You multiply zero by two you still get zero ...

[Karl Streiger]

PhoenixFire55, on 03 June 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

You multiply zero by two you still get zero ...

---- we really need the Piranha to proof you wrong 12 x 0 = 500 Ghost Heat

[Rushin Roulette]

Prosperity Park, on 02 June 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

Inner Sphere LRMs weigh twice as much as Clan versions and take up almost twice as many slots...

So, are IS LRMs really balanced to be twice as good as Clan LRMs?

Of course they are twice as good. The designers of these weapons followed the maxim of "built by a genius to be used by an idiot". That is the reasonj why they have the added PUG safety system of not being able to damage teammates within a radius of 180m.