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'pay 2 Lose' Hero Mechs


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#21 DAYLEET

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 03:03 PM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 03 June 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

That said, the current trend in MWO with Hero Mechs being sub-par was traditionally referenced by PGI as being a "trade off"-- More C-Bills at the expense of optimal loadout potential via 'unique' hard points... Which completely spat in the face of logic as the Hero Mechs' collective inadequacies likely cost you more C-Bills than the 30% Bonus would net you and turns it into a self-defeating system with the perception of gain rather than actual gain, further perpetuating PGI's goal of clamping actual C-Bill income that forces people to buy Premium Time to get anywhere...

That's because PGI always thought of the economy as something to balance their game with which is why we are in the state that we are now. Bad economy is not fun for anymore. It's restrictive and turn game time into work time. Those of us, me included, who bought their heroes, good or bad, because they had nice vanity paint and a different variant to play with probably lead them to believe their model was right.

But hey, it took them 3 years to realise that throwing new guys with the wolves was a bad idea too. Have a night of not knowing why you die, where you earn 40k per match on your basic mech that cost 1.5m for double heatsink alone even though you dont even know dhs exist and are mandatory... meh go play another game.

Edited by DAYLEET, 03 June 2016 - 03:04 PM.


#22 Clint Steel

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 03:10 PM

The Fang and Flame should be on that list, even if they are decent dragons (which I'm not sure that they are), they are still dragons :P

Huggin was hardly any good when it had super quirks, people just freak out about rapid fire SRMs for some reason.

Ember isn't terrible, it just isn't great either. Better than many other Mechs though so not P2L.

The Arrow is pretty mediocre

Not a huge fan of the Tempest, though I can do ok in it, just having only 2 missile hardpoints seems an odd choice for the hero.


I believe they generally do a good job of keeping the Heros interesting but not making them "pay to win." Sometimes they do do go a little too much on the weak side though (you are paying for them after all, they should be decent). Will be interesting to see how things go with the new quirk update.

#23 oldradagast

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 03:29 PM

Pretty Baby is one of the best examples of Pay to Lose.

It's an Awesome - which is already a hefty strike against it - with the nearly useless ability to mount a huge engine. Huge engines, however, accomplish very little for most assault mechs, so that's hardly a reason to buy it.

To "balance" out its Awesomeness and huge engine, it has the fewest hardpoints of any assault mech in the game at a whopping SIX. Oh, but it gets better. One of those hardpoints is in the head, so nothing more than a medium pulse laser can go there, and two of them are gimped missile launchers with tiny tube counts on the left arm. That leaves you with THREE full-sized weapon hardpoints... on an assault mech.

Still not sold on this staggering piece of junk? Well, the hardpoints are also scattered all over the mech in about the least logical way possible. Sure, stick the large energy mounts in the right arm and left torso so there's no danger of being able to fire two PPC's without exposing your whole mech; and then stick the missile launchers in the right torso and left arm so there's no risk of all your SRM's hitting.

One would have to try to build a worse mech than Pretty Baby. Some say it was created to avoid people crying "pay to win" about heroes - in that way, I guess it was successful. Ironically, one of the next heroes after it was Misery, which while not pay to win is at least a viable and interesting mech. Why they can't fix Pretty Baby, who knows... Even a second energy point in the arm or torso would at least make it not laughably bad, and the geometry already exists for that change, but PGI, so nevermind.

Edited by oldradagast, 03 June 2016 - 03:33 PM.


#24 dario03

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 04:29 PM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 03 June 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

The Ember has never been a terror in any iteration. Not when it first came out, not when Mguns had higher DPS, not after The Quirkening and it still isnt after all the quirk passes. The JR7-F has been superior to the Ember from day one, even after the FS9-A and FS9-S surpassed it. The JR7-F has always been better than the Ember and it still is... Which puts the Ember in the same tragedy bracket as the IV-Four, only a little above what happened to the Huginn. That said, the current trend in MWO with Hero Mechs being sub-par was traditionally referenced by PGI as being a "trade off"-- More C-Bills at the expense of optimal loadout potential via 'unique' hard points... Which completely spat in the face of logic as the Hero Mechs' collective inadequacies likely cost you more C-Bills than the 30% Bonus would net you and turns it into a self-defeating system with the perception of gain rather than actual gain, further perpetuating PGI's goal of clamping actual C-Bill income that forces people to buy Premium Time to get anywhere... /tinfoil hat. Posted Image


The Ember was just as good as the Jenner F back in the day. They played differently and each had its pros and cons, but they were about equal.

#25 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 04:32 PM

View PostFelio, on 03 June 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

I meant to start this during the hero and champion sale and event, but oh well.

(On a related subject, in mech packs, the special + variant is almost routinely the worst. They are too numerous to list in any detail)

A Pay 2 Lose hero is, in my view, not simply a hero variant of a bad chassis. It's a bad variant of any chassis.

But what really inspired me to make this thread is a twofer: A bad hero of a bad chassis, the St. Ives' Blues. It's like any other Vindicator -- light armor and a low engine cap -- only with fewer hardpoints. Oh, it gets a minor engine bump, but not nearly as much as the 1AA. Its main benefit is that with a 250, you don't need external heat sinks. Then again, the standard heat sinks, standard structure and standard armor it comes with leave plenty of room.

The Ember. While the FS9-S, K and A were running around like Inner Sphere Arctic Cheetahs before they were cool, boating small or medium lasers and vaporizing Atlas rear armor, the Ember was plinking away with its machine guns.

I know some people like to romanticize ammo explosions from MGs, but while you were staring deeply into your opponent's foot actuators, someone with real weapons destroyed his CT outright (or perhaps yours) in less time and with less risk. And that person was actually useful for the entire match, not just when there were exposed components containing ammo. Fun fact: Machine guns don't do any extra damage to internal structure. Critical hits do damage to equipment only.

You are better off with unused tonnage than you are by filling it with machine guns. They are more likely to lead you to a fatal distraction than to victory against anyone.

For a long time the Ember didn't even have machine gun quirks, just languishing with -10% laser duration while Firestarters with more lasers got better quirks for them. Now that it has a +25% machine gun rate-of-fire quirk, it has also been given +15% flamer range, which really seems like a troll.

The Huggin. Repeat everything I just said about machine guns, then add that this thing doesn't even have energy hard points. Not that you need them, exactly, but light mechs generally depend on them for firepower, and this one doesn't have much to make up for their absence. And it has two 20-tube missile launchers, for some reason. Like PGI wants you to make an LRM40 Raven. Or maybe some kind of LRM20 + SRM6 abomination.

And the RVN-3L has ECM, obviously. That seems like a cheap shot to make against the Huggin, but I'll make it anyway. We could make the same criticism of the CDA-X5 because the 3M has ECM, but the X-5 isn't bad, it's just weird that it is the only mech in the game without AMS. The Anasi doesn't have the SDR-5D's ECM, either, and it only escapes this list because the 5K and 5V are even worse.

I believe there are other contenders, such as the Pretty Baby, but I am less familiar with them. I think an honorable mention goes to the IV-Four for focusing on low-slung ballistics, the weight of which also prevents you from taking advantage of the Quickdraw's speed, so you may as well be piloting one of a gazillion other heavies.

Embers actually were good enough to cause PGI to double nerf MGs.

Since then? Yeah, not good, sadly.

#26 Y E O N N E

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 06:06 PM

View PostBud Crue, on 03 June 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:


I'd add Ilya to that as well. I haven't been around long enough but I have read enough threads to know that back in the day, many considered this one of the "go to" ballistics mech. I still think it is excellent.
Firebrand too; also Sparky. Flame certainly isn't P2L either, certainly not the worst Dragon.


List of solid Hero 'Mechs:

Ember
Oxide
Arrow
Sparky
Grey Death
Legend Killer
Firebrand
Jester
Black Widow
Bounty Hunter II
Misery

I would say the Ilya isn't bad, but its hard-point locations really let it down. The Pirate's Bane isn't terrible, but it's still a Locust. Hellslinger passable, but way overshadowed by its companions. The rest? Eeeeeeh.

#27 Gorgo7

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 06:24 PM

The Pretty Baby Sucks evacuating sphincter
.

#28 Col Jaime Wolf

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 08:50 PM

View PostGorgo7, on 03 June 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

The Pretty Baby Sucks evacuating sphincter
.


no no no no. no words can truly describe how bad pretty baby is. you could make an ode, a poem or a ballad about how bad pretty baby is and it wouldn't do justice.

#29 Gorgo7

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 09:29 PM

View PostCol Jaime Wolf, on 03 June 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:


no no no no. no words can truly describe how bad pretty baby is. you could make an ode, a poem or a ballad about how bad pretty baby is and it wouldn't do justice.

Then why didn't you "Like this?"

#30 Col Jaime Wolf

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 09:33 PM

View PostGorgo7, on 03 June 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

Then why didn't you "Like this?"


happy now? :P

#31 KodiakGW

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 10:19 PM

View PostClint Steel, on 03 June 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

The Fang and Flame should be on that list,


No, they shouldn't.



Love that Marik warhorn riff. Sounds like a riff from DUNE (1984). But they really need to get that gorilla arm fixed.

#32 MechWarrior319348

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 10:34 PM

Heavy metal should not be named here. When I first bought it I would have agreed. But it is one of my favorites now. You have to go through several failed build attempts before you find the one for you.

Also, they went back and buffed it's quirks. Its just because no one uses it that it went unnoticed.

Apart from that, it has a heavy effect on moral. Something about that music makes teammates want to kick some ***; and sends enemies into a state of worry, "Who the hell is making that heavy metal sing like that!"

#33 Weeny Machine

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 10:42 PM

Huginn - piece of junk. Before the nerf it was pretty balanced: it had high-dps but a low alpha. So you had to stay on-target. It was a high risk, high reward mech. Now it is high risk, no reward mech.

Grid Iron - somehow that mech is lackluster. I dunno why, I don't get it to work. I have hardly seen him anymore post-nerf anymore. So it can't just be me.

#34 Corrado

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 11:01 PM

here is my personal list of what i actually have...
the good ones:

- Oxide (we all know)
- Black Widow (i'd vote it as the best IS heavy)
- Atlas-BH (i'd vote as the second best atlas variant after the 7-S, 3LPL+3MPL or 5LPL)
- Firebrand (there are several good builds, it does have good quirks and good hardpoints, actually running 2PPC 2AC5)
- YLW
- TopDog (no heatgen quirks, but all in the torsoes, very agile and tough)

the subpar ones:

- La Malinche (awkward energy hardpoints)
- Huginn (with the last quirk pass)
- Grid Iron (had sense with the gatling gauss, now not much)
- Fang (AC10 3LL? can't fight against other heavies)
- ILYA (bad geometry, no AC quirks)
- Pretty baby (even with stellar quirks...)

#35 White Bear 84

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 11:05 PM

View PostFelio, on 03 June 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

The Huggin. Repeat everything I just said about machine guns, then add that this thing doesn't even have energy hard points. Not that you need them, exactly, but light mechs generally depend on them for firepower, and this one doesn't have much to make up for their absence. And it has two 20-tube missile launchers, for some reason. Like PGI wants you to make an LRM40 Raven. Or maybe some kind of LRM20 + SRM6 abomination.


Pay 2 lose™



Pay 2 lose™

Posted Image

Of course that is not to deny the fact that Vindicators are still pretty underwhelming against certain other mechs... ..but still you can make it work.

Edited by White Bear 84, 03 June 2016 - 11:09 PM.


#36 Revis Volek

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 11:28 PM

View PostClydewinder, on 03 June 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:


Worst Hero mechs right now are Heavy Metal and Dragon Slayer



Remember there was a time when they were both among if not the best mechs in the game....

View PostAlistair Winter, on 03 June 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:


Pepperidge farm remembers.


Edited by Revis Volek, 03 June 2016 - 11:28 PM.


#37 NUSQUAM

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 04:46 AM

View PostKodiakGW, on 03 June 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:


No, they shouldn't.

snip

Love that Marik warhorn riff. Sounds like a riff from DUNE (1984). But they really need to get that gorilla arm fixed.


1. That build is better on a FANG.
2. Dragons in general got nerf'd with the new hitboxes, that alone puts the heroes on the list by extension.
3. Missile quirks on all dragons taking up 'quirk space'.
4. Hitbox nerf.
5. The only thing the FLAME has for it is the AC/20 build. Even then other mechs do it better.

The DRG is my favorite mech and my FLAME and FANG the most drops, but wow are they subpar.

#38 oldradagast

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 09:27 AM

View PostBush Hopper, on 03 June 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:


Grid Iron - somehow that mech is lackluster. I dunno why, I don't get it to work. I have hardly seen him anymore post-nerf anymore. So it can't just be me.


The Grid Iron isn't terrible, but without the "double-speed" Gauss Rifle quirk, it's just another Hunchback where you stick a big gun in the torso weapon pod. I still run it now and then since it's "just another Hunchback" that pays extra, but I can see why folks aren't spending money on it since it brings nothing new to the table without the Quirks.

#39 DAYLEET

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 10:02 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 03 June 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

I would say the Ilya isn't bad, but its hard-point locations really let it down.

View PostCorrado, on 03 June 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

- ILYA (bad geometry, no AC quirks)


By todays standard the Ilya is nothing to write home about but back then the CTF were the mech to have, Ilya included.

#40 Y E O N N E

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 10:38 AM

View PostDAYLEET, on 04 June 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:


By todays standard the Ilya is nothing to write home about but back then the CTF were the mech to have, Ilya included.


Which is why it wasn't in my list.





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