19 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

Unlocked engine.

Agreed?

All the customization of a II-C mech, with bloated hardpoints...
High top speed + maximum firepower..

Pretty obvious.

If Kodiak had a locked engine like the majority of the other Clan mechs, I'd put money down that it would be a little less OP.

[Wingbreaker]

Warning: LORE LORE LORE

Battlemech

Omnimech

The difference is important, even in a Mechwarrior game.

[Mcgral18]

It would fare better than Mr Gargles, but you would remove it from serious play, for the most part. Those 7.5 tons mean an entire compliment of ammo for your typical mech (give or take 2 tons)

Remove a PPC or a UAC10, and you're reduced to Heavy levels of firepower (but retain good mounts and stuff)



The unlocked engine is one part (MOAR GUNS) but the location of the guns, the GOOD quirks (on a good robot, no pity quirks like previous Clam passes for the Trash Tier), and also good hardpoints on...well, the one.


The 3 is the only real outlier.

[BigFatGator]

Honestly, I'm only seeing the dakka Kodiak as a problem and even then it's just really really good and not OP. To me OP means a average pilot with this OP mech can consistently beat an excellent pilot in a non-OP mech (this example = Atlas, KKrabby, or Turretwolf, or even Mauler or Banshee). I just don't see that with the Kodiak so far. The -3 might very well be the best Assault currently but a different 90-100T mech will beat it if the pilot skill difference is significant.

[Wintersdark]

Mister D, on 05 June 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Unlocked engine.

Agreed?

All the customization of a II-C mech, with bloated hardpoints...
High top speed + maximum firepower..

Pretty obvious.

If Kodiak had a locked engine like the majority of the other Clan mechs, I'd put money down that it would be a little less OP.

Bloated hardpoints?! Where? KDK-3, the only one that is a concern, has 4B 4E. The Mauler, the most directly comparable chassis, as 10 (between 6B/2E/2M, 4B/4E/2M, etc). The KDK-SB, the next best, is basically an AS7-S.

Silly monkey. It's a Battlemech, not an Omnimech. It's exactly like an IS Battlemech.

[Scout Derek]

Ehh Mister D I'm going to have to say no on this one.

Like everyone is saying, everyone has a itch to scratch with the KDK-3.

The rest are pretty mediocre (Save for Spirit Bear) to the Kodiak 3 because which Kodiak can pump out 80~ damage within 4-5 seconds with low heat output?

If anything, they aren't OP. what IS OP is THE VARIANT.

There's a difference when saying a chassis is OP as to a Variant that's OP. If you knock down a while chassis, you're not just hurting the good variant, you'll hurt the bad variants and send them back to the stone age while the good variant is just sent back to the Bronze age. (from present that is)

[Chados]

No, it isn't anything like an IS Battlemech. It has lighter equipment that takes fewer criticals, including two-slot double heat sinks and 10-class ultra autocannon. It has the Clan XL engine, meaning you can take out a side torso and the Kodiak keeps on fighting. It can carry more guns, more ammo, and more cooling, while having the mobility of a 60-ton IS mech and outclassing any IS mech that has to run an standard engine for survivability.

Restrict the Kodiak to IS equipment-particularly the one shot, one kill IS XL engine, and this argument would have merit. It'd be an Atlas without the structure quirks. But it's not, because it has access to Clan equipment with none of the drawbacks that Clan omnimechs have to put up with. So yeah, it's overpowered-at least the 3 is. Even the guy that won the tournament says so. And as for the Spirit Bear, when an AS7-S can move like that, and carry an XL engine that doesn't drop the whole mech when you take off a side torso, I'll buy that argument.

[Scout Derek]

Chados, on 05 June 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

No, it isn't anything like an IS Battlemech. It has lighter equipment that takes fewer criticals, including two-slot double heat sinks and 10-class ultra autocannon. It has the Clan XL engine, meaning you can take out a side torso and the Kodiak keeps on fighting. It can carry more guns, more ammo, and more cooling, while having the mobility of a 60-ton IS mech and outclassing any IS mech that has to run an standard engine for survivability.

Restrict the Kodiak to IS equipment-particularly the one shot, one kill IS XL engine, and this argument would have merit. It'd be an Atlas without the structure quirks. But it's not, because it has access to Clan equipment with none of the drawbacks that Clan omnimechs have to put up with. So yeah, it's overpowered-at least the 3 is. Even the guy that won the tournament says so. And as for the Spirit Bear, when an AS7-S can move like that, and carry an XL engine that doesn't drop the whole mech when you take off a side torso, I'll buy that argument.

After reading the bold within this quote I kind of went "please don't."

And as for the guy that won the tourney? He won the KDK-3 bracket, not the entire thing. And know his name, it's Twinky.

Twinky says it's OP because people were all stomping around in Kodiak's, and when you know how to play the game and you can take the most advantages and shortcuts in it, you will definitely win. Twinky did so, and he says it's OP because of so.

But I doubt it; Hasn't even been a full month yet and people jump to conclusions.

If the Kodiak was really "OP", where's the nerfs hmm?

Unless PGI is taking the 2 month data intake to learn fully about how good or bad the Kodiak is.

[Wintersdark]

Chados, on 05 June 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

No, it isn't anything like an IS Battlemech. It has lighter equipment that takes fewer criticals, including two-slot double heat sinks and 10-class ultra autocannon. It has the Clan XL engine, meaning you can take out a side torso and the Kodiak keeps on fighting. It can carry more guns, more ammo, and more cooling, while having the mobility of a 60-ton IS mech and outclassing any IS mech that has to run an standard engine for survivability.

Restrict the Kodiak to IS equipment-particularly the one shot, one kill IS XL engine, and this argument would have merit. It'd be an Atlas without the structure quirks. But it's not, because it has access to Clan equipment with none of the drawbacks that Clan omnimechs have to put up with. So yeah, it's overpowered-at least the 3 is. Even the guy that won the tournament says so.

I am making no argument whether it is overpowered or not. I'll say, for the purposes of this thread, that sure it is. Did I say anywhere at all that I felt the KDK-3 was not overpowered?

The thing is, Omnimechs don't have battlefield drawbacks. That's why the original plan of "locked equipment" being a balancing factor failed utterly, and a major reason why Clans where grossly OP for so long.

Locked equipment is not an effective balancing factor. It merely decides whether or not a chassis is good before players can even touch it.

This is why the TBR was grossly OP for so long, and the Summoner absolutely garbage. That didn't serve to balance Clans vs. IS, though, because all people do is only use the Clan mechs that have good locked equipment, and ignore the ones with bad locked equipment.

Clan XL's and such are balanced via quirks - this is why IS vs. Clan balance is pretty good right now (or even arguably in the IS favour, but let's not go there - for the purposes of the thread, "balanced" is fine) That's WHY IS mechs have massive structural, agility, and weapon quirks.

Quote

And as for the Spirit Bear, when an AS7-S can move like that, and carry an XL engine that doesn't drop the whole mech when you take off a side torso, I'll buy that argument.

...Sure, without the massive structural and agility quirks, ok.

See, the Spirit Bear is not a stronger mech than the AS7-S. When all is said and done, they're fairly well balanced. Whether the SB has an XL or not isn't really relevant, what matters is the end result of the comparable builds.

The AS7-S can out tank the SB by a country mile, is substantially more agile (though this can be negated with very careful MASC usage) but is slower. Both present comparable firepower, with the Spirit Bear having the option to doubletap a UAC20 (more, but spread damage, with risk of jamming presenting a severe threat in a brawl) or packing an LBX20 instead (no face time requirement but always spreading damage). The Spirit Bear loses a lot of speed and heat dissipationifwhen it loses a side torso, too. The AS7 packs an AC20, which will always deal 100% damage to the target component AND allows firing while twisting to increase tanking ability.

Thus, the AS7-S is tougher, the KDK-SB is quicker. In most other ways, they're equal. This is one of the few times where PGI has done a really great job of "different but balanced."


Should the KDK-3 be nerfed? Sure. But not by breaking basic construction rules (which exist for a reason). It should be balanced the same way everything else is. Just remove the bonus quirks, and it's basically on par with a Mauler.

Also, a point to note:

If you locked engines on the Kodiak, you'd nerf the KDK-3 as a result, but the Spirit Bear wouldn't care at all. Everyone runs a MASC boosted 400 on it anyways. And that is the whole god damned point. Locked equipment isn't a good way to balance anything.

Edited by Wintersdark, 05 June 2016 - 02:17 PM.

[Corrado]

i do see constantly bad kdk3 pilots doing bad 100 tonner scores (200ish damage) and average kdk3 pilots doing average 100 tonner scores (500ish?). i do see good pilots doing 800 1000 damage and exceptional pilots (most of em in the top20 of the event) doing 1200+ in carryhard matches.

im using dakka extensively this month. thanks to the hero sale been able to buy a mech i consider good as a kodiak3, in the heavy class and in the IS ranks. the Black Widow. the gameplay is similar. hammering the targets out of cover. but unlike the quad10 kodiak, the BW can 2-3shot lights, doesnt have a bullseye CT and it never overheats.

the fact is the quad10 kodiak even with 15 DHS, does heat up like a laservomit mech, gets shot in the back from front, has a silly CT and ST pauldrons above the arms. it's a 100 tons glass cannon made to kill heavies and assaults.

while with the mauler or the BW is relatively easy to land precise shots at 500+ meters, with the UAC10s is a bit more challenging. of course it's easier at 350m range but then, we have a sub midrange shooter.

WHY the kodiak is superior is just because can punish out of position mechs and tunnel vision slow targets up to 600 meters

mine runs 4UAC10 9t ammo a TC4 and XL350.

all the lately crymoar threads will make PGI remove the quirks but in the next six months people will start to deal with it and adapt. TBR negative quirks story anyone?

and another kodiak thread by the way..

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 05 June 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Unlocked engine.

Agreed?

All the customization of a II-C mech, with bloated hardpoints...
High top speed + maximum firepower..

Pretty obvious.

If Kodiak had a locked engine like the majority of the other Clan mechs, I'd put money down that it would be a little less OP.

all mine run the 400 anyhow. Fast AND Furious, bro. Let's lock the engine... won't hurt my feelings one bit!
(plus it's stupid that second line mechs meant for second rate warriors are allowed more customization than front line mechs meant for golden boy warriors, anyhow.)

Lock my Engine, JJs and Endo, and I'd see exactly ZERO impact on my KDK builds and play. But maybe the KDK3 cryfest would dissipate some. Of course, then we'd get "Spirit Bear is OP Better Loyalty ATLAS!!! PLOX NERF!!!!"

Why? Because anything that touches people's paperdoll has to be OP.

*shrugs*

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 June 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

LOL?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...30ea8cff99c805e

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 05 June 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

LOL?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...30ea8cff99c805e

I LOVE finding massive, un-structure buffed Mechs packing GRs packed against XLs. Not pure kiss of death against Clans but they stipp pop so nice. Wish we had better displays for stuff like that and ammo explosions.

More my speed
KDK-5

but still love the KDK4 most of all, followed by Casper Bear.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 June 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[cazidin]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

(plus it's stupid that second line mechs meant for second rate warriors are allowed more customization than front line mechs meant for golden boy warriors, anyhow.)

I think I pointed that out in a thread about the IICs a LONG time ago. If you look hard enough you'll find that Battletech lore is full of dumb decisions. By comparison this game has few.

[Bishop Steiner]

cazidin, on 05 June 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

I think I pointed that out in a thread about the IICs a LONG time ago. If you look hard enough you'll find that Battletech lore is full of dumb decisions. By comparison this game has few.

eh in batteltech lore second line warriors were not allowed to modify their battlemechs. Most frontline wariors were't either.

TT had the rules for consttuction but they ween't meant ot be an unfettered mechlab like MW has always had.

[Scout Derek]

Mister D, on 05 June 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

LOL?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...30ea8cff99c805e

Yes. lol.

it's very hot and it wouldn't be fun.

[Andi Nagasia]

Wingbreaker, on 05 June 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Warning: LORE LORE LORE

Battlemech

Omnimech

The difference is important, even in a Mechwarrior game.

we dont have many of hte benifits of OmniMechs here in MWO,
any Omni should be able to Mount JJ, or ECM as they are Pod Mounted,
and any pod should be able to be mounted on Any OmniMech,

but here BattleMechs gain full Mech Factory Construction Rules with no time,
but OmniMechs are expected to just Field retrofit, the system is inherently Flawed,

[Bishop Steiner]

Wingbreaker, on 05 June 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Warning: LORE LORE LORE

Battlemech

Omnimech

The difference is important, even in a Mechwarrior game.

OH...omnimechs...you mean mechs where I can literally mount ANY type of equipment anywhere as long as I have the tonnage and crits available?

Yeah those would be pretty cool to have. Probably hard to work with the 3 variant grind model though.

[FupDup]

Mister D, on 05 June 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Unlocked engine.

Agreed?

All the customization of a II-C mech, with bloated hardpoints...
High top speed + maximum firepower..

Pretty obvious.

If Kodiak had a locked engine like the majority of the other Clan mechs, I'd put money down that it would be a little less OP.

Would you also give it Omnipods for swapping around hardpoints in exchange?

It's called being a Battlemech. Battlemech =/= Omnimech.

[Andi Nagasia]

(raises hand)
Um can i get a Nova-Prime Converted to a BattleMech Please?