78 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Like I said.. do what "needs" doing to the KDK3.

My issue is that after that is nerfed, and the SB rises to the top, then what will they expect nerfed on it? And the 4, etc.......

Because the constant QQ to nerf whatever touches someone's paperdoll never ends, but the drive to actually try to gitgud, well that is just too much work for most of our special snowflakes.

A little off topic, but I am suddenly reminded of an ancient game called "Roboforge." I totally loved that that game saved each competition between you and someone else as a public replay, and your bot could go up the ranks as you progressed up the ladder. Not exactly the same thing since personal skill in the actual fight was limited, but player design was pitted against player design with strengths and weaknesses and it was fantastic seeing your own design decisions resulting in you advancing, personally.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 June 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

That is true, but the SB is a brawler, those rarely get as much flak because the disorder of public queue isn't always conducive to brawling.



Gee Bishop you are starting to sound like an elitist comp player.

Oh, I've never underestimated the stupidity of the underhive. That doesn't require Comp Mentality.... just basic competence and accountability.

Most of the time, when you keep doing things the same way...and it keeps ending the same way (usually poorly)..... that means it's YOU that needs to affect a change. Had a guy in our unit, back in my HARDCorps days, that would insist on driving slow Assaults, then rage all day every day about those cheap, ezmode LRMs.... because he expected everyone else to stand in the open and "fight like a man" the way he wanted to.

John Wayne mentality at it's finest.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 June 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Look... you can only do what you can do. As for the underhive staring at and facing tanking KDK3s? There's no (legal) cure for stupid. If they aren't dying to that, it'll be from standing in the open and gawking at LRMs. Or something other form of demonstrable (and preventable) stupidity.

No joke. CW Scouting. Must have come up against t5 underhivers in standard engine COMs. They tried to stand still and face tank my Ice Ferret. The decision making skills in some pilots are beyond unbelievable. There is no accounting for stupid, and there is no good reason why the game should be balanced based on people like that.

[Moldur]

Big Tin Man, on 08 June 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

When all I see are matches with no less than 6 Kodiak 3's all running quad UAC10's, there's a balance issue.

That is a bold faced lie. We all play the same game.

Everyone reading this, please tell me if this is true outside of the first week of kodiak release.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

No joke. CW Scouting. Must have come up against t5 underhivers in standard engine COMs. They tried to stand still and face tank my Ice Ferret. The decision making skills in some pilots are beyond unbelievable. There is no accounting for stupid, and there is no good reason why the game should be balanced based on people like that.

Agreed.

You have to take into account that the vast majority of players aren't going to be "good" by Comp Standards. Neither the time or interest invested, the reflexes, the gear, etc. Because of that, might not always make the "right" build, or use the "right" tactic. But mso tof them are still basically competent, and learrn from mistakes, and that IS who the majority of the player population is.

You do have to take them into account when balancing, because for most of your paying playerbase, "gitgud" is an option of diminishing returns. More adult gamers are playign a few hours here and there to blow off steam, between work, raising a family, etc, and simply no interested/capable of the myopic focus needed to "gitgud".

Which is why most smart companies don't balance thing solely for the "Comp Community" but do use the comp crowd to help identify and streamline things to ensure a relatively balanced and enjoyable experience for the majority of their playerbase.

But there's an underhive in every game community. The cup stacking, mouthbreathing, participation prize wielding PC ignoramuses who think we should get 100k a year for flipping burgers at McDonalds. And you really can't waste time worrying about them. DOing that will just drag everyone down to their level of dumb.

Moldur, on 08 June 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

That is a bold faced lie. We all play the same game.

Everyone reading this, please tell me if this is true outside of the first week of kodiak release.

I see about 2 per side most often, sometimes less, sometimes more. And of those, probably 75% that I mentally register are DakkaBears. Also the vast majority of those fail to break 400 dmg, in most matches.

Color me unimpressed.

[Big Tin Man]

Most teams in the tournament broadcast were running 2 KDK 3's as their assaults Moldur, though most were ppc/gauss.

It's happening, maybe not 6 UAC bears per side as much anymore depending on when and what server you're on, but 6 kodiaks of any variant in a single match is still a very common thing in both solo and group if you're in a small group, and most of them are 3's.

Bishop, I agree that the typical bear's damage is ~400 these days, which is why I'm trying head head off the typical PGI over the top DWF level nerf with a suggestion that we can live with. Undoing the structure buffs hurts everything and weakens any heavy ballistic build due to crits and ammo explosion (and 5-10 points isn't really going to save you anyway when you're a priority target). Reducing mobility doesn't really change UAC gameplay from the KDK 3 drivers perspective, as you need the face time to apply DPS (whether the underhive player you're shooting at takes advantage of this, well, as you said, you can't fix stupid). It only hurts when a light gets on your *** at point blank range.

Adding UAC jam chance, even a tiny bit of it as I suggested has been met with nothing but hate, yet people are arguing it isn't the best build at the same time. I know LBX's just are bad, and gauss takes a bit of skill, but does 5% jam really make UAC's absolutely worthless here, or is it enough to quell the crying of the underhive while leaving the mech intact?

[Mechteric]

Negative quirks are incredibly stupid, so no

[Triordinant]

Moldur, on 08 June 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Everyone reading this, please tell me if this is true outside of the first week of kodiak release.

I still usually see 4 or 5 Bears per match. It's still the most used assault.

[Mawai]

iLLcapitan, on 08 June 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

lol.
nerf every good thing out there, till all there is left is mediocrity.

LOL

The funny thing about this is that the poster means it as sarcasm when it is actually just the simple TRUTH.

In a balanced game you DO NOT WANT "good things" ... you WANT EVERYTHING to be mediocre ... since then the game is actually balanced.

If everything was "mediocre" then folks would make choices based on what they play best. They would make choices on based on the playstyle and role that they want for the mech ... sniper, brawler, scout, tank.

If everything was "mediocre" then the meta would be more spread out, there would be more viable choices for folks who want to be extremely competitive and more variants of more mechs would be competitive.

If the general opinion (and the facts measured by PGI) support the idea that the KDK-3 is a bit too good ... then it DOES need to be nerfed. KDK, Atlas, DWF ... throw all the 100 ton assaults into a bin ... look at statistics ... how often do they die, how quickly, how much damage do they do, how effective are they ... try to avoid both IS and clan fanbois/girls ... then buff/nerf until they are ALL mediocre ... then you have BALANCE

[Bishop Steiner]

CapperDeluxe, on 08 June 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

Negative quirks are incredibly stupid, so no

I'll disagree.

If everything else is good about a mech, but one thing is out of line, I'd rather see a simple, minor negative quirk used to rectify it that buffing and powercreeping everything else to compensate.

Nerfs get way too much negative connotation.

[Bishop Steiner]

Big Tin Man, on 08 June 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Most teams in the tournament broadcast were running 2 KDK 3's as their assaults Moldur, though most were ppc/gauss.

It's happening, maybe not 6 UAC bears per side as much anymore depending on when and what server you're on, but 6 kodiaks of any variant in a single match is still a very common thing in both solo and group if you're in a small group, and most of them are 3's.

Bishop, I agree that the typical bear's damage is ~400 these days, which is why I'm trying head head off the typical PGI over the top DWF level nerf with a suggestion that we can live with. Undoing the structure buffs hurts everything and weakens any heavy ballistic build due to crits and ammo explosion (and 5-10 points isn't really going to save you anyway when you're a priority target). Reducing mobility doesn't really change UAC gameplay from the KDK 3 drivers perspective, as you need the face time to apply DPS (whether the underhive player you're shooting at takes advantage of this, well, as you said, you can't fix stupid). It only hurts when a light gets on your *** at point blank range.

Adding UAC jam chance, even a tiny bit of it as I suggested has been met with nothing but hate, yet people are arguing it isn't the best build at the same time. I know LBX's just are bad, and gauss takes a bit of skill, but does 5% jam really make UAC's absolutely worthless here, or is it enough to quell the crying of the underhive while leaving the mech intact?

if that is what it takes to quell the masses? I'm good with it.

Even a 10% if need be. As you note the FLDBears require some level of skill (well as much as our point and click aiming ever allows for) which is why I don't see them becoming a "thing" outside of Comp Play. Meta only trickles down so far as it's easy to do. There are some Meta builds that take actual skill to get results.

[Mole]

I remember when the DWF was the most OP thing in the game. Oh, you just peeked around a corner in something under 100 tons and there was a DWF waiting for you? Was nice knowing you, pal. If you happened to be an Atlas or something you might be able to back down before you got COMPLETELY vaporized. Now, I barely even see DWFs anymore. I'm curious, what exactly did they do to the DWF that has made it, as some have called it, 'unplayable'? I don't actually know. I've never owned a DWF and the only thing that I'm aware of is that they've become much less of a thing and some people are calling them 'broken'.

[Gas Guzzler]

Big Tin Man, on 08 June 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Most teams in the tournament broadcast were running 2 KDK 3's as their assaults Moldur, though most were ppc/gauss.

Yes, please remember that Canyon Network is a map that favors longer range engagements with these class restrictions. Frozen City would probably see a mix of AS7-S and Spirit Bears in there with a prominent showing. The latter is inferior to the Atlas but does possess great closing ability.

[Big Tin Man]

Mole, on 08 June 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

I remember when the DWF was the most OP thing in the game. Oh, you just peeked around a corner in something under 100 tons and there was a DWF waiting for you? Was nice knowing you, pal. If you happened to be an Atlas or something you might be able to back down before you got COMPLETELY vaporized. Now, I barely even see DWFs anymore. I'm curious, what exactly did they do to the DWF that has made it, as some have called it, 'unplayable'? I don't actually know. I've never owned a DWF and the only thing that I'm aware of is that they've become much less of a thing and some people are calling them 'broken'.

The DWF mobility was nerfed to that of a skyscraper via the pilot skill tree nerf and re-quirkening. Wasn't there an engine/twist related correction made in one of the patches as well? Any way you go about it, it went from being slow but playable to having all the maneuverability of a stone.

DWF's are still offensive powerhouses that will pound you into the ground, until you take two steps left. The Kodiak doesn't have mobility issues of this magnitude.

Gas, I'd actually expect to see some Wubshees on Frozen City as well.

[Gas Guzzler]

Big Tin Man, on 08 June 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Gas, I'd actually expect to see some Wubshees on Frozen City as well.

I doubt it with only two assaults. Brawling is ridiculously strong on Frozen City, and Atlas/Spirit Bear are much better at that then the WubShee is.

[Ultimax]

Big Tin Man, on 08 June 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

Increase UAC jam chance 5%.

That's it. Just enough to make the quad 10's or 5's and 10's a bit less attractive.

The only problem with this mech is UAC boating. So discourage it, and only it. Can we please blitz Russ and Paul with this so they don't totally break an otherwise good mech?

It's not a problem, this is what a 100 ton Assault mech with 50 tons devoted to weapons is supposed to do.

[Jables McBarty]

Big Tin Man, on 08 June 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Adding UAC jam chance, even a tiny bit of it as I suggested has been met with nothing but hate, yet people are arguing it isn't the best build at the same time. I know LBX's just are bad, and gauss takes a bit of skill, but does 5% jam really make UAC's absolutely worthless here, or is it enough to quell the crying of the underhive while leaving the mech intact?

By your own admission, this quirk only addresses ("punishes") one build, despite the fact that higher level players rarely use it.

It won't "fix" the KDK-3, it'll just nerf one particular build.

Mawai, on 08 June 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

LOL

The funny thing about this is that the poster means it as sarcasm when it is actually just the simple TRUTH.

In a balanced game you DO NOT WANT "good things" ... you WANT EVERYTHING to be mediocre ... since then the game is actually balanced.

If everything was "mediocre" then folks would make choices based on what they play best. They would make choices on based on the playstyle and role that they want for the mech ... sniper, brawler, scout, tank.

If everything was "mediocre" then the meta would be more spread out, there would be more viable choices for folks who want to be extremely competitive and more variants of more mechs would be competitive.

If the general opinion (and the facts measured by PGI) support the idea that the KDK-3 is a bit too good ... then it DOES need to be nerfed. KDK, Atlas, DWF ... throw all the 100 ton assaults into a bin ... look at statistics ... how often do they die, how quickly, how much damage do they do, how effective are they ... try to avoid both IS and clan fanbois/girls ... then buff/nerf until they are ALL mediocre ... then you have BALANCE

Just be careful with that word--Mediocre. I don't want to see a dedicated dakka boat that is mediocre at dakka. Find other ways to get its stats down to average. Make it a glass cannon. W/e. Just don't turn one of its strengths into a weakness.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Wait!!! Does the Kodiak-3 needs nerfing? LMAO

If they want to nerf the Kodiak, then they need to unnerf the Dire Wolf (maybe then people would recognize it as a wolf and not a whale), need to nerf the Oxide, need to unnerf clan heatsinks and tone down a bit the Atlas and Mauler.

Well, its only natural, with clan tech being so nerfed the way it is, compared to what it was (and it came out nerfed if you all remmember), and you want to nerf the only good assault mech on the clans... LMAO

[Gas Guzzler]

Spadejack, on 08 June 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

Wait!!! Does the Kodiak-3 needs nerfing? LMAO

If they want to nerf the Kodiak, then they need to unnerf the Dire Wolf (maybe then people would recognize it as a wolf and not a whale), need to nerf the Oxide, need to unnerf clan heatsinks and tone down a bit the Atlas and Mauler.

The Mauler is better at the long range game, but the KDK-3 is better at the mid range game, AND has more structure quirks and more agility quirks.

Nerf the Atlas and the Spirit Bear will not only be able to close the distance better, but will also be a better brawler too. That's called a lack of balance.

Seriously, do you competitive play much? Doesn't sound like you know what balance is.