41 replies to this topic

[Feral Goose]

Of the Clan mechs that come with pre-installed engines, that can not be changed out, I have a question why two of them do not come with the engine mounted, external Dbl. Heat Sinks(DHS), allotted to the engine, due to it's size.
Any engine, above the size 250, gains an engine mounted heat sink (or at least the slot for one) for every 25 sizes above. This holds true, across the board. I've gone through all of the clan mechs, that come with permanent engines, and found:

Ice Ferret has a 360XL, has two(2), engine mounted, DHS, but should have 4
Storm Crow has a 330XL, has zero(0), engine mounted, DHS, but should have 3


What gives? There aren't any negative quirks listed about this, dealing with these mechs.


The other Clan mechs are fine:
Ebon Jaguar 325XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Hellbringer 325XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Summoner 350XL and DOES have 4 external, engine mounted, DHS
Timber Wolf 375XL and DOES have 5 external, engine mounted, DHS
Dire Wolf 300XL and DOES have 2 external, engine mounted, DHS
Gargoyle 400XL and DOES have 8 external, engine mounted, DHS
War Hawk 340XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Adder comes with 8 engine DHS, like it should, with a 210XL
Artic Cheetah comes with 9 engine DHS, like it should, with a 240XL
Kit Fox comes with 7 engine DHS, like it should, with a 180XL
Mist Lynx comes with 7 engine DHS, like it should, with a 175XL

[FrontGuard]

I have noticed this also... good question.
Good luck getting an answer.

actually i noticed this in clan mechs you have on the fine list, it may be an intermittent bug.

Edited by FrontGuard, 10 June 2016 - 07:29 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The engines are locked. Thus, they only have stock engine heatsinks mounted. In many cases that will fill all heat sink slots in the engine, but in several (especially with the highest engine ratings) it will leave one or more engine slots empty but locked.

PGI could always tweak their system slightly to allow for those extra slots to be unlocked, but it might be more trouble than it's worth, especially in light of the opportunity cost in terms of other development priorities.

[Feral Goose]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 10 June 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

The engines are locked. Thus, they only have stock engine heatsinks mounted. In many cases that will fill all heat sink slots in the engine, but in several (especially with the highest engine ratings) it will leave one or more engine slots empty but locked.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I've listed all of the other clan mechs with "locked" engines, and they all have extra, engine mounted, external DHS slots, they should have. Only with these two, are neither the heat sinks or the slots absolutely missing.
I can get on board with the concept that, like choosing to have an IS 300XL without placing 2 DHS in it's slots, these two mechs have locked engines that didn't have the slots (that would still be there) filled, and are now permanently installed.

But what is the rhyme and reason why these two mechs, happen to have the only drunk engineers, that happen to forget to place the DHS in the slots, when the engine was on the assembly line?

[Afuldan McKronik]

TRO construction rules I believe is what all Clan Onmi engines were built on. If it didnt have DHS in engine in TRO, it doesn't have them here.

[Lightfoot]

yep

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 June 2016 - 08:12 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Lightfoot, on 10 June 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

You can just add the DHS. The mechs that have fixed equipment engine DHS have the weight of them subtracted from their payload totals.

The only mech loadout I can think of that this would affect is the 12 SPL Stormcrow, as then you could run LA and Hands while still getting the max DHS allowed.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Feral Goose, on 10 June 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

But what is the rhyme and reason why these two mechs, happen to have the only drunk engineers, that happen to forget to place the DHS in the slots, when the engine was on the assembly line?

In lore, building extra heat sinks into the engine required a complete redesign. So, by and large the clans like to use the same engine in multiple mechs (excepting certain halo mechs) so if the older mech didn't require those extra heat sinks in the engine the new one won't have them either.

Also... in TT omnimech construction rules are more flexible, so in a lot of cases those external DHS were pod mounted and could be removed if one mounted less heat intensive configuration.

[FrontGuard]

Switching from DHS to SHS or from SHS to DHS is what I think does it... if a recall correctly.
I'm at work and can not test right now.

[Metus regem]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 10 June 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

In lore, building extra heat sinks into the engine required a complete redesign. So, by and large the clans like to use the same engine in multiple mechs (excepting certain halo mechs) so if the older mech didn't require those extra heat sinks in the engine the new one won't have them either.

Also... in TT omnimech construction rules are more flexible, so in a lot of cases those external DHS were pod mounted and could be removed if one mounted less heat intensive configuration.

Unless they were hardwired like those in the Warhwak or the Summoner's jump jets....

Feral Goose, on 10 June 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Of the Clan mechs that come with pre-installed engines, that can not be changed out, I have a question why two of them do not come with the engine mounted, external Dbl. Heat Sinks(DHS), allotted to the engine, due to it's size.
Any engine, above the size 250, gains an engine mounted heat sink (or at least the slot for one) for every 25 sizes above. This holds true, across the board. I've gone through all of the clan mechs, that come with permanent engines, and found:

Ice Ferret has a 360XL, has two(2), engine mounted, DHS, but should have 4
Storm Crow has a 330XL, has zero(0), engine mounted, DHS, but should have 3


What gives? There aren't any negative quirks listed about this, dealing with these mechs.


The other Clan mechs are fine:
Ebon Jaguar 325XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Hellbringer 325XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Summoner 350XL and DOES have 4 external, engine mounted, DHS
Timber Wolf 375XL and DOES have 5 external, engine mounted, DHS
Dire Wolf 300XL and DOES have 2 external, engine mounted, DHS
Gargoyle 400XL and DOES have 8 external, engine mounted, DHS
War Hawk 340XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Adder comes with 8 engine DHS, like it should, with a 210XL
Artic Cheetah comes with 9 engine DHS, like it should, with a 240XL
Kit Fox comes with 7 engine DHS, like it should, with a 180XL
Mist Lynx comes with 7 engine DHS, like it should, with a 175XL

It's to due with the original TRO's for the mechs, if you have any questions about that, please talk to the lore master of CGBI, I'm sure they will be willing to enplane it in more detail.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Its because of Omnimech construction rules, generally when you add heat sinks to the base configuration, heat sinks are added to the engine first (if they can store them) and then they become external heat sinks. Locked engine heat sinks still eat up potential free tonnage and they aren't much different than the external locked DHS that the Warhawk and Whale have, the only real difference is external locked DHS cost criticals, not just tonnage. Omnimechs also can't add heat sinks to the engine once the base configuration is locked because that is part of the Omnimech construction rules, so if a variant used more DHS, you couldn't just throw them in the engine (because engine heat sinks aren't pod mounted).

[Pjwned]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 10 June 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

The engines are locked. Thus, they only have stock engine heatsinks mounted. In many cases that will fill all heat sink slots in the engine, but in several (especially with the highest engine ratings) it will leave one or more engine slots empty but locked.

PGI could always tweak their system slightly to allow for those extra slots to be unlocked, but it might be more trouble than it's worth, especially in light of the opportunity cost in terms of other development priorities.

I don't see how the current system makes any sense, why would empty slots be locked even though they're still there in the engine? I understand that omnimechs are partially balanced by having limited construction rules, but there's a point where it stops being reasonable and I think that point is crossed in this case.

Fortunately it tends to not make a huge difference because it's not like you can suddenly install Endo and/or Ferro by freeing up enough crit slots, but it's still unnecessarily restrictive and it does matter enough.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Pjwned, on 10 June 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

I don't see how the current system makes any sense, why would empty slots be locked even though they're still there in the engine? I understand that omnimechs are partially balanced by having limited construction rules, but there's a point where it stops being reasonable and I think that point is crossed in this case.

Fortunately it tends to not make a huge difference because it's not like you can suddenly install Endo and/or Ferro by freeing up enough crit slots, but it's still unnecessarily restrictive and it does matter enough.

Like I said above, I think only the 12 SPL Stormcrow would be affected by this. As you would max tonnage before crits, allowing LA and Hand Actuators.

[WarHippy]

FrontGuard, on 10 June 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Switching from DHS to SHS or from SHS to DHS is what I think does it... if a recall correctly.
I'm at work and can not test right now.

He is talking about Clan mechs. They don't have SHS let alone the ability to switch them.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

WarHippy, on 10 June 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

He is talking about Clan mechs. They don't have SHS let alone the ability to switch them.

Clan mechs do have SHS, I believe the Clint IIC has them stock, but they are not common, and you won't find them on an Omnimech iirc.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 June 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Clan mechs do have SHS, I believe the Clint IIC has them stock, but they are not common, and you won't find them on an Omnimech iirc.

The Piranha uses SHS too... but since it's built around 12 MG's, 2 ERSL and 1 ERML that is acceptable....

[Feral Goose]

It's funny trying to figure out PGI, in when it adheres to lore and when it just throws it out the window.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Feral Goose, on 10 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

It's funny trying to figure out PGI, in when it adheres to lore and when it just throws it out the window.

Not sure why you bring that up because it is following the rules on this one.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 June 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 June 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Not sure why you bring that up because it is following the rules on this one.

Omni's do, but Battle mechs don;t...

[FrontGuard]

sorry all if i just created confusion...
I was talking about how sometimes the heat sinks seem to disappear from the engine on clan mechs.