376 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Kay Wolf, on 29 June 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

Okay, the stuff from Russ is ignorant ********!!! It cannot be based on damage... that's the most ignorant crap I've ever heard in my life.

Here's how it needs to be done... you have an engine size, rated generally as 100 - 400. Drop the last digit and treat that as points which, if exceeded heat-wise, causes internal damage, just like an override. So, if you have a 210 rated engine, but you fire an Alpha that raises 30 heat, your internals take 9 points of damage. This is tacked onto any heat you have already built in your engine. Then, there's a very long cool-down, where heat points within 10% of your engine rating take ten seconds to cool off, the next 20% takes another ten seconds, and so on. Make damn Alpha's actually COST something. Holy crap, how stupid do you have to be to come up with the most convoluted, least-valid system for heat on the planet!!!!

first off your system doesnt stop Ballistic or missile Boating at all,
second your system pushes that Big Engines are most Important which we already have Enough of,
you System is also Convoluted, as it doesnt take in consideration Mech Sizes(Light 1Alpha = Death),
just linking it to Alpha and Damage isnt that Complicated, and may be Simpler than yours

[Threat Doc]

Well, and that's where you're just....! All of the different weapon systems do have their heat and, if Paul would stop screwing with them, those various heat values would matter.

Now, you're also f'ing... ! Because you're not taking into account that this is about Alpha's, and those who drive missile boats, such as myself, would not alpha, anyway, as it would be a massive waste of ammunition. SRMs do build up heat quickly and, if someone alpha's they're going to push that heat scale up.

My system takes into account every weapon's system equally, and the idea behind an Alpha is that you're firing off EVERY SINGLE WEAPON YOU HAVE to try and kill a bad guy dead-fast-now.

Now, if you have a problem with LRM boats, you need to grow a pair and truly learn how to play the game; you don't know what you're talking about, here, and you need to shut your cake hole.

For your Light 1 Alpha = Death, you're so full of crap, it's ridiculous. Do you even know HOW to design a 'Mech? It sounds to me like you load up on weapons, cutting your armor and engine just so you can have your beloved high-Alpha's. Again, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, so go pack sand.

[Lukoi Banacek]

You two experts at the game should probably sit back, take a moment to breathe and come back at this with a little less vitriol. It's really not necessary.

[Roland Skinner]

kapusta11, on 15 June 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Well, it looks like there will be a "weapon load gauge" with a certain decay rate and cap instead of hard .5 sec delay like in case of a Ghost Heat hence the macro will look something like this:

Fire weapon group 1
Wait [(Weapon Group 2 Load - Gauge Cap + Weapon Group 1 Load) / Load Decay Rate] seconds
Fire weapon group 2

Edit: changed the formula because previous one contained pretty dumb mistake.

That load decay is a good thing as it gives you a choice - wait until the
load goes back to zero and avoid all heat penalty, or fire while there
is some load and pay the price. Go ahead and program a macro and
lock yourself into one choice.

I assume the rate and shape of the decay curve will be a thing that can be tuned.

[Andi Nagasia]

Roland Skinner, on 29 June 2016 - 07:10 PM, said:

That load decay is a good thing as it gives you a choice - wait until the
load goes back to zero and avoid all heat penalty, or fire while there
is some load and pay the price. Go ahead and program a macro and
lock yourself into one choice.

I assume the rate and shape of the decay curve will be a thing that can be tuned.

I agree a bar would be Better, Visually you can see where you stand Alpha wize(for both New and Vet Players)
it also Discourages Full Ballistic Boating, assuming that Any Amount that Exceeds the Bar also has to Deplete,

[DivineEvil]

Neither Power Draw nor Heat-Scale were necessary if we had properly thought-out base heat management values. All you need to realize, that heat capacity limits the alpha, while dissipation limits general damage output, and the only weapon that has to be manually limited is Gauss, that is not bound by heat. Tweaking base values and heatsink bonuses would be enough to achieve any desireable result.

[Alek Ituin]

Good f**king god, and you people wonder why PGI barely attempts to talk with the forums. Quite frankly, I wouldn't even bother paying attention to the forums if I was PGI. You all act like slavering, disingenuous man-children that throw temper tantrums whenever PGI doesn't do exactly what you want. It's like expecting someone to walk in to a metaphorical pit of lions and thanking the lions for eating them.

F**k. That. Noise.

B*tch and moan that GH is complicated -> GH 2.0 is pretty f**kin straightforward -> You b*tch about that.
B*tch and moan that GH doesn't solve alphas -> GH 2.0 solves alphawarrior syndrome -> You b*tch about that.
B*tch and moan that GH isn't a good system -> GH 2.0 assuages root problems of RT MW -> You b*tch about that.

Yes, it's GH 2.0, but it's what GH should have been from word go. It doesn't beat around the bush to indirectly manage alphas, it says to your face "X damage max alpha or deal with consequences". But you people just cannot accept ANYTHING. You have to b*tch about it right now before seeing any details, any PTS tests, anything. Constant f**king "It's not my idea so imma complain incessantly with no information".

[El Bandito]

Kay Wolf, on 29 June 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

Okay, the stuff from Russ is ignorant ********!!! It cannot be based on damage... that's the most ignorant crap I've ever heard in my life.

Here's how it needs to be done... you have an engine size, rated generally as 100 - 400. Drop the last digit and treat that as points which, if exceeded heat-wise, causes internal damage, just like an override. So, if you have a 210 rated engine, but you fire an Alpha that raises 30 heat, your internals take 9 points of damage. This is tacked onto any heat you have already built in your engine. Then, there's a very long cool-down, where heat points within 10% of your engine rating take ten seconds to cool off, the next 20% takes another ten seconds, and so on. Make damn Alpha's actually COST something. Holy crap, how stupid do you have to be to come up with the most convoluted, least-valid system for heat on the planet!!!!

That would make Std engines pretty damn obsolete compared to a big XL. It will also screw over mechs with low engine cap. Think things through before you post.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 30 June 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

That would make Std engines pretty damn obsolete compared to a big XL. It will also screw over mechs with low engine cap. Think things through before you post.

well at least he is right about the part with damage - the limit of 30 damage doesn't make sense.

6 medium lasers for the Borat (AS7-BH) perfectly 30dmg don't bother with the other hps. Go full heat sinks.
Or hm 30dmg...3 Large Laser for 15t vs 10 small Laser for 5t? or 6 medium laser for 6t? Ok the limit are the number of hardpoints but still its obvious that this system is ridicoulus.

When people wouldn't be scrubs the double AC20 would never have been considered a issue -and so you could bring Heat scale or Heat whatever and or or starting at firing the 3rd weapon. Doesn't matter what you use.

---

Well of course you could just portate the S7 heat system and you have everything we ever wanted:

No Alpha Strikes anymore - and all you need is the work of 30min to edit the xml files

But maybe its to simple to go this route.

[Threat Doc]

El Bandito, on 30 June 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

That would make Std engines pretty damn obsolete compared to a big XL. It will also screw over mechs with low engine cap. Think things through before you post.

Standard engines are pretty damn obsolete, now, and that is not the result of anything having to do with the system I propose, it has to do with the fact we are freely able to customize our 'Mechs in any way we want.

The low-engine cap problem is something PGI designed in, and doesn't belong in the game at all, it has nothing to do with BattleTech or MechWarrior, so that's also not something my idea has to deal with. PGI needs to remove those engine caps, anyway.

What my system would cause to happen is for 'Mech designers to make decisions about how best to develop their 'Mechs... do they go above the engine heat rating when putting weapons on a 'Mech, or do they throw on what they want, damn the torpedo's and full speed ahead?

Remember two other things, as well...

With XL engines, Inner Sphere still suffer three additional critical spaces lost, and Clans suffer two, in each torso, and they are still killed just as quickly. Mounting regular engines would actually help players keep their heat for Alpha in check. Also, regardless of our engine type or size, that Alpha cool-down timer will be present; harkening back to MechWarrior II, that should be your Dynamic Heat Scale. Remember, in MWII, your regular heat might dip pretty quickly back to normal levels, but your internal components had to have more time to cool dynamically, and that could be added, here, as well, modernized a bit.

Regardless of the type of engine you have, it's going to keep your desire to Alpha Strike pretty low, because you're sucking up internal damage if you don't keep yourself from Alpha Striking every two seconds.

I'm trying to see why you guys would rather go for the beginning limitation of 30 damage in an Alpha, which has no real bearing, is a truly arbitrary ****** number and is not a mechanically sound means of tracking heat in this game, rather than a system that's embedded in the game and would become an actual tactical consideration of play for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER? I'm beginning to wonder, seriously, if the stupid pills (courtesy U.S. Army) or the Fukitol (courtesy the F-hole) have been distributed in too great a number this month?

Edited by Kay Wolf, 30 June 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

Standard engines are pretty damn obsolete, now, and that is not the result of anything having to do with the system I propose, it has to do with the fact we are freely able to customize our 'Mechs in any way we want.

At the moment Std Engines do have their use on more than a few mechs, just ask around.

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

The low-engine cap problem is something PGI designed in, and doesn't belong in the game at all, it has nothing to do with BattleTech or MechWarrior, so that's also not something my idea has to deal with. PGI needs to remove those engine caps, anyway.

The engine caps were made to differentiate mechs using canon base engine rating. Moreover, attempting to change PGI set engine rating system is not gonna happen.

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

What my system would cause to happen is for 'Mech designers to make decisions about how best to develop their 'Mechs... do they go above the engine heat rating when putting weapons on a 'Mech, or do they throw on what they want, damn the torpedo's and full speed ahead?

What will happen is that overwhelming majority will put on big XL and pack appropriately big alphas since your system has no engine restriction. IS and Clan alike. Guaranteed.

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

Remember two other things, as well...

With XL engines, Inner Sphere still suffer three additional critical spaces lost, and Clans suffer two, in each torso, and they are still killed just as quickly. Mounting regular engines would actually help players keep their heat for Alpha in check. Also, regardless of our engine type or size, that Alpha cool-down timer will be present; harkening back to MechWarrior II, that should be your Dynamic Heat Scale. Remember, in MWII, your regular heat might dip pretty quickly back to normal levels, but your internal components had to have more time to cool dynamically, and that could be added, here, as well, modernized a bit.

Yeah, not gonna happen. Not with PGI.

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

I'm trying to see why you guys would rather go for the beginning limitation of 30 damage in an Alpha, which has no real bearing, is a truly arbitrary ****** number and is not a mechanically sound means of tracking heat in this game, rather than a system that's embedded in the game and would become an actual tactical consideration of play for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER? I'm beginning to wonder, seriously, if the stupid pills (courtesy U.S. Army) or the Fukitol (courtesy the F-hole) have been distributed in too great a number this month?

Just because others have holes in their ideas doesn't mean your's is not, as I have shown ya.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 June 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[Threat Doc]

You actually have shown no one anything, except that you're closed-minded and more willing to white knight for PGI's idea than try anything else on for size. The thirty point Alpha limitation is arbitrary and, while it may work, it's just going to piss people off more than my proposal would. Why don't you get off the bandwagon, stop drinking the kool-aid, and come up with a better solution than either mine or PGIs.

Challenged.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

You actually have shown no one anything, except that you're closed-minded and more willing to white knight for PGI's idea than try anything else on for size. The thirty point Alpha limitation is arbitrary and, while it may work, it's just going to piss people off more than my proposal would. Why don't you get off the bandwagon, stop drinking the kool-aid, and come up with a better solution than either mine or PGIs.

Challenged.

its not about White Knighting Kay,
we think that this system will work, why else would be Defend it,
this System if Implemented Right could be a Change for the Better,

Personally i see some holes in your Idea,
Such as Ballistic Boating, mostly AC5/AC10 and Gauss,
this isnt a Personal Attack on you Kay, Please Dont take it as Such,
we are Just Talking and working to Find Solutions here,

[Wintersdark]

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

You actually have shown no one anything, except that you're closed-minded and more willing to white knight for PGI's idea than try anything else on for size. The thirty point Alpha limitation is arbitrary and, while it may work, it's just going to piss people off more than my proposal would. Why don't you get off the bandwagon, stop drinking the kool-aid, and come up with a better solution than either mine or PGIs.

Challenged.

You've got to come up with a better solution that has any chance at all of being implemented. I can't think of any. Your idea, be it good or not doesn't matter as it has flatly zero chance of happening.

I don't have a better solution, and while I'm still strongly in favour of low heat cap-high dissipation, GH2.0 is at least an improved version of GH, so I'll take what I can get. LC-HD has its own issues as well, mostly re: ballistics and such.

---

What's frustrating here is the amount of exaggeration in the thread. Moronic statements like "heavies and assaults would be useless, just pack 30 pt alphas and ignore other hard points"

I choose to believe those people are just playing it up to get a rise, and aren't that shockingly stupid.

Assuming 10pt draw srm6's, take a 6xSRM6 build. Fire 3xSRM6 then 3xSRM6 (as you did when the srm6 ghost heat limit was 3) - you'll hammer down a 3xSRM6 medium every single time.

[Felicitatem Parco]

... pssssst....


Using a Gauss Rifle would generate significant waste heat because charging and discharging those capacitors will be at far-less than 100% conversion efficiency.

It should by much more than 1 heat.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 June 2016 - 03:18 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

Prosperity Park, on 30 June 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

... pssssst....


Using a Gauss Rifle would generate significant waste heat because charging and discharging those capacitors will be at far-less than 100% conversion efficiency.

It should by much more than 1 heat.

How about 5 heat when the capacitors discharge, regardless of whether or not you fire. So if you hold the trigger until the capacitors naturally discharge, you get 5 heat. If you fire, you get 5 heat. If you let go of the trigger before the capacitors discharge, you get no heat. I'd prefer a percentage of heat based on charge level, IE 50% charge at trigger release = 2.5 heat, but no heat is just easier.

[Andi Nagasia]

Alek Ituin, on 30 June 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

How about 5 heat when the capacitors discharge, regardless of whether or not you fire. So if you hold the trigger until the capacitors naturally discharge, you get 5 heat. If you fire, you get 5 heat. If you let go of the trigger before the capacitors discharge, you get no heat. I'd prefer a percentage of heat based on charge level, IE 50% charge at trigger release = 2.5 heat, but no heat is just easier.

B b b b but that would be a Change from the TT STATS!!!,....
(personally im ok with alittle more heat perhaps 3 to start)

[Threat Doc]

There is no system that cannot and will not be gamed; I'm surprised you folks don't understand that.

Sticking with an arbitrary damage number makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever; if you're going to have a game system, it should be one that is integral, not having loose numbers like Russ' plan presently has. It is inconsequential. At least with Ghost Heat it was logical to assume that too many of the same type of weapon being fired together could cause a surge in heat for the amount of immediate energy discharge required to power them. With this 30-point system, it will not solve anything, it will not stop any kind of boating whatsoever. People will simply switch firing groups of weapons, as they should, in rapid succession, to overcome the heat problem. It should be impossible to Alpha Strike with any single button, each of the groups being required to be fired individually, even if the buttons for each group are all pressed at the same time.

Russ originally spoke of a power drain type of system that would be related to heat, in the latest town hall meeting, and he's already changed his mind to being a limit on the size of an Alpha Strike to the amount of damage output. First off, unless you hold a laser directly on the very same target for the duration of the laser feed, all of that damage is not being transferred to a target. Missiles and Ballistics have glancing modifiers, so full damage transfer does not always happen, plus only about 25 - 35% of all missiles in a single group actually hit the target, so a damage-based limitation is of the highest level of arbitrary ignorance to use.

My take away from the Town Hall meeting was that Russ was talking about a power drain on the system, as was explored with Gauss Rifle's in a couple of the BattleTech novels, such as firing one Gauss Rifle would dim your cockpit lights for a moment, but firing a second Gauss Rifle would shut your 'Mech down. Russ said it would be related to the heat system, that Ghost Heat was going away, and Ghost Heat 2.0 was coined by either Phil or Bombadil, not by Russ, and it was damned ignorant of them to express it that way. If you have a power drain system, the best way to make that work would be to divide your engine rating by 10, then count the heat requirement of each weapon as it's power requirement, as well. Once the heat of an Alpha Strike either counts up or down beyond that engine-divided rating limit, it begins to do harm to the internal systems, and there's a count-down or count-up, some manner of cool-down. If a player does an Alpha Strike, again, before that extended cool-down is complete, whatever is remaining on that cool-down bar is added to the heat from the next Alpha Strike, and it does that much more damage and takes that much more time to cool-down.

Real-world mechanically and game-rule mechanically this holds up, and it holds up well. Those of you who deny the logic of my argument are doing so strictly out of your own failure to see that PGI are not perfect, and do come up with some ridiculous dumb-assed decisions. If you want to stick with your dumb-assed arbitrary number, rather than trying something that actually makes sense, then you're the reason we can't have nice games. I'm done, here.

[Mechsniper]

I will point out that from closed beta forward there were those of us who pointed out that unlimited hardpoint sizes would lead to problems. Ghost heat will never fix anything as long as you can mount an LBX 20 where a MG goes. The problem was identified when the Gauss cat first reared its ugly head. PGI has tried everything to fix it EXCEPT limiting hard point sizes. only a few head weapons slots really do this, but all hardpoints could be limited so that an ERPPC can't replace every small laser.

[El Bandito]

Kay Wolf, on 30 June 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

---I'm done, here.

Good. Cause PGI is most likely never gonna implement your system anyway, due to the amount of coding effort required--which they are not known for.