423 replies to this topic

[Thorn Hallis]

Phew...thats a tough nut to crack. If those lights in question weren't rewarded with some awesome quirks I can't see anyone running them in the future. I guess the thought behind the changes was tonnage? I don't know man...thats seems a bit "overdone".

The Locust being smaller doesn't change much for me, I can't hit them anyway allready. ^^

[mad kat]

Seriously wondering what pot PGI smokes Yeah i get the panther and Wolfhound need to be a bit bit bigger but not that ******* much.

Seriously i wonder what the **** goes through their heads at time!

Looks like i'll be selling my panthers then.

Edited by mad kat, 19 June 2016 - 07:38 AM.

[Ovion]

AmazingOnionMan, on 19 June 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, has anyone done the hard numbers on exactly how much my favorite Wolfhound has grown? Pretty sure that's a hell of a lot more than 7%.

It is a full 20% larger in each dimension.
It was a 'flat upscale', where simply the whole model was increased in size.

I can show my math / comparison if needed, but unless specifically requested, I cba to export and upload the data unless explicitly requested.

[Tempest Omega]

I see people disagreeing because of hard points, because they think lights are fragile, because their mark I eyeball says it isn't right, because they don't understand the difference between humanoid and spherical shapes, because they don't understand how two things can be the same height even when they weight different amounts (even though one is tall thin and flat and the other is a bowling ball) and finally why wasn't their favorite favored with favorable dimensions.

OK so maybe people didn't use those exact phrases but that it was I got out of reading the almost 8 pages of this thread.

I am not a PGI White Knight. I do however think they got this correct, as a first step.

Another quirk pass will needed as a second step but I don't see that as being done until whatever the replacement for ghost heat they have coming is rolled out, because that should impact the weapon quirks.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

Can we agree that, taking the visual perception of a Mech on the battlefield, the tallness of said Mech is what we are all discussing about when we are talking about the "size" of it. Basically, if we line the Mechs up next to each other,a " who might look over whoms shoulder" kind of thing. Lucky for us all, PGI provided us with a neat graphic:



Now, I became curious, what that meant in hard numbers and so I made a little table. I've put in the name of the Mech, the height in meters, the (assumed) height of the cockpit, the tonnage in metric tons, the walking type (human walker, chicken walker) and the origin.

MWO - ReScale 2016:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

I might be off by half a meter now and then with the height of the cockpit but thats by accident, so don't bust my balls because of it. I also did not take in acount the antenae into the height of the Mech.

Edited by Thomster, 19 June 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[stealthraccoon]

Actually I agree with the changes - I mean there is math behind it, so I think it's legitimate.

We all know smallish humanoid mechs jump from the womb broken, so at least if we make broken hit-boxes bigger, they are theoretically easier to hit!

About the only one I don't like being taller is Urbie - shoud be short and squat as possible - like Commando height, but more rotund!

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

Ovion, on 19 June 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

It is a full 20% larger in each dimension.
It was a 'flat upscale', where simply the whole model was increased in size.

I can show my math / comparison if needed, but unless specifically requested, I cba to export and upload the data unless explicitly requested.

They could have redesigned the head at least. ;-)

Edited by Thomster, 19 June 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[William Mountbank]

I'm just glad my stock Urbies will no longer be called out for being so OP...

[Nexano]

After all this whining i wanna play light mechs even more... Lol... Eager to see new lights.

[Zodie]

New Firestarter is like an old Grasshoper now

[DemonRaziel]

Zodie, on 19 June 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

New Firestarter is like an old Grasshoper now

Don't be silly. There's a good 2-3 m difference between the new FS and the old 'Hopper. Even the Wolfhound and Panther, that are the tallest Lights, have nothing on the Grasshopper, old or new.

Compared to Mediums, however, there's 4-5 'Mechs shorter than the tall trio of Lights (FS, PNT, WLF). And then we have the Spider, the next tallest light 'Mech on the list, which, while probably mathematically accurate, is a kick in the nuts, when considering his hard points and overall usefulness.

Tempest Omega, on 19 June 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

I see people disagreeing because of hard points, because they think lights are fragile, because their mark I eyeball says it isn't right, because they don't understand the difference between humanoid and spherical shapes, because they don't understand how two things can be the same height even when they weight different amounts (even though one is tall thin and flat and the other is a bowling ball) and finally why wasn't their favorite favored with favorable dimensions.

OK so maybe people didn't use those exact phrases but that it was I got out of reading the almost 8 pages of this thread.

I am not a PGI White Knight. I do however think they got this correct, as a first step.

Another quirk pass will needed as a second step but I don't see that as being done until whatever the replacement for ghost heat they have coming is rolled out, because that should impact the weapon quirks.

Fair enough, but I believe we all realize than in a FPS, 'Mech size is a very important balancing factor. Just as firepower is an important balancing factor in a combat oriented game such as this.

Making a ton of 'Mechs bigger is an obvious nerf, be it justified from the geometry standpoint, or not. And when it affects (also some of the) 'Mechs that are already under-represented on the battlefield, we can be sure to see even less of those 'Mechs in our drops.

If/when PGI will make up for this with new quirks or whatnot remains to be seen. But for the time being (starting next week), you can't blame the people to point out this will affect these 'Mechs negatively and will hurt the variability of 'Mechs in the game yet again.

So to reiterate, while the re-scaling might not be for a balancing reason, it will undoubtedly affect the balance.

[PSDub]

I have a great idea.. why dont we make all the mechs the same size and have the same hardpoints, this will make for great balance.. oh wait.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

PSDub, on 19 June 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

I have a great idea.. why dont we make all the mechs the same size and have the same hardpoints, this will make for great balance.. oh wait.

I cannot for the love of God remember to have read any posting even remotely demanding such a thing. And the word you were looking for might probably rather be "equiality" than balance.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

That is a drastically larger Panther.

Lights were fine regarding their size.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 19 June 2016 - 02:05 PM.

[PSDub]

Thomster, on 19 June 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

I cannot for the love of God remember to have read any posting even remotely demanding such a thing. And the word you were looking for might probably rather be "equiality" than balance.

I am just light trolling.. to be fair i agree with most people here. the Panther and Wolfhound really are too big now.. i compared the Hunchback and Wolfhound with each other side by side.. and other than the hunchy been slightly fater from side on profile at the top, they are effectively the same size.. i guess that 15 ton difference must be justified in the hunch.

Edited by PSDub, 19 June 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[Countess]

65 tons against 35 tons. 65 tonner is smaller than a 35 tonner.
I can see lances filled with Catapults. Light hitbox, high space for weapons and ammo, high armor.
Enough said.

Edited by Countess, 19 June 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[Tempest Omega]

Countess, on 19 June 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

65 tons against 35 tons. 65 tonner is smaller than a 35 tonner.
I can see lances filled with Catapults. Light hitbox, high space for weapons and ammo, high armor.
Enough said.

You are trolling right? I mean you don't see that the Wolfhound has significantly less area to be hit from the front and even more of a difference from the side than the new Catapult? Really?

Now I agree some quirks will need to come into play as quirks are apparently the balancing factor (and they are not there right now) but if you are just flat out not seeing how the Catapult compares then you are either just commenting from your heart or you are playing us.

[Countess]

Countess, on 19 June 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

65 tons against 35 tons. 65 tonner is smaller than a 35 tonner.
I can see lances filled with Catapults. Light hitbox, high space for weapons and ammo, high armor.
Enough said.

Tempest Omega, on 19 June 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

You are trolling right? I mean you don't see that the Wolfhound has significantly less area to be hit from the front and even more of a difference from the side than the new Catapult? Really?

Now I agree some quirks will need to come into play as quirks are apparently the balancing factor (and they are not there right now) but if you are just flat out not seeing how the Catapult compares then you are either just commenting from your heart or you are playing us.

Are you implying a 35 tonner (light) should have roughly the same size as a 65 tonner (heavy)? because there's literally no way you can justify this. I repeat, they have roughly the same size. You can't be justifying this, in any possible way. Not even if (in your eyes) the catapult is an itty bitty bigger at the sides. Also I REPEAT THERE'S A 30 TON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO.

Edited by Countess, 19 June 2016 - 04:25 PM.

[Tempest Omega]

Countess, on 19 June 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

Are you implying a 35 tonner (light) should have roughly the same size as a 65 tonner (heavy)? because there's literally no way you can justify this. I repeat, they have roughly the same size. You can't be justifying this, in any possible way. Not even if (in your eyes) the catapult is an itty bitty bigger at the sides. Also I REPEAT THERE'S A 30 TON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO.

you would have to stack three Wolfhounds front to back to be equal to the side profile of the Catapult and that would still make the front profile smaller (not shorter but smaller, less area to hit head on). I am not sure what type of measurement "itty bitty" is to you but apparently it is drastically different from what I use that phrase for.

I understand that you are posting from the position of what your "feel" and not what is real (I cannot believe you made me say real in regards to a video game).

Am I saying they are balanced? No but that will need to be addressed with quirks. I am just not in the camp that wants mechs sized on performance and feel, I like things scaled the way PGI did it, once again provided they do a quirk follow up some time this year.

BTW I can read quite well the very large font and caps doesn't make me take you any more seriously, in fact quite the opposite.

Edited by Tempest Omega, 19 June 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[Countess]

Tempest Omega, on 19 June 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

you would have to stack three Wolfhounds front to back to be equal to the side profile of the Catapult and that would still make the front profile smaller (not shorter but smaller, less area to hit head on). I am not sure what type of measurement "itty bitty" is to you but apparently it is drastically different from what I use that phrase for.

I understand that you are posting from the position of what your "feel" and not what is real (I cannot believe you made me say real in regards to a video game).

Am I saying they are balanced? No but that will need to be addressed with quirks. I am just not in the camp that wants mechs sized on performance and feel, I like things scaled the way PGI did it, once again provided they do a quirk follow up some time this year.

BTW I can read quite well the very large font and caps doesn't make me take you any more seriously, in fact quite the opposite.

Flash news! PGI listened to role model user 'Tempest Omega' and now balanced the sizes with quirks!

All mech are the same in size, except they now have more butt!

Wolfhound:
+30 Structure everywhere, +40 armor everywhere! +80% heat loss!

Come on, I can't really believe you're defending this (of course I say this because I take a normal person as a reference, but Internet is filled with people so who knows) Still, I don't need you to take me seriously. If defending heavy mechs with light size and just balance with quirks is what you're after then go ahead. Thank god you're not a developer because I'm pretty sure you'd get fired in two days. Just look at the entire history of the mechwarrior franchise (even this one before this patch) and it'll prove you wrong. Tell anyone that a catapult has roughly the same size as a light and they'll laugh at you, even if you try to justify it with the catapult having a beak instead of a torso, but whatever.

Edited by Countess, 19 June 2016 - 05:00 PM.