423 replies to this topic

[Tempest Omega]

Countess, on 19 June 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Flash news! PGI listened to role model user 'Tempest Omega' and now balanced the sizes with quirks!

All mech are the same in size, except they now have more butt!

Wolfhound:
+30 Structure everywhere, +40 armor everywhere! +80% heat loss!

Come on, I can't really believe you're defending this (of course I say this because I take a normal person as a reference, but Internet is filled with people so who knows) Still, I don't need you to take me seriously. You keep defending heavy mechs with light size and just balance with quirks then go ahead. Thank god you're not a developer.

Well I can see you are just going to ignore anything said that doesn't fit into your vision of how this rescale works that (from what I can see most of the) community thought they wanted.

I will stay out of your way and not comment on your future tidbits on this topic.

Feel free to rant away, lol.

[Countess]

Tempest Omega, on 19 June 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

Well I can see you are just going to ignore anything said that doesn't fit into your vision of how this rescale works that (from what I can see most of the) community thought they wanted.

I will stay out of your way and not comment on your future tidbits on this topic.

Feel free to rant away, lol.

I'm pretty sure that using 'big words' and leaving does not make you any more right on this topic. Also, taking your 'From what I can see most of the community wanted'. Just look at the community feedback, and you'll see how wrong you are. But I'm pretty sure you won't and just do the same tactic you just did, so whatever.

Bye!

Edited by Countess, 19 June 2016 - 05:24 PM.

[Miles McQuiston]

I will wait and see how this plays out. I can definitely see some greater difficulty in playing brawling/back stabbing lights but the range game will be viable. Lights are my favorite class and ending up easier to hit will likely make adapting a new play style necessary. Good light pilots will still be good light pilots and bad light pilots will just pilot something else.

[Alan Davion]

BAHS, on 19 June 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

I will wait and see how this plays out. I can definitely see some greater difficulty in playing brawling/back stabbing lights but the range game will be viable. Lights are my favorite class and ending up easier to hit will likely make adapting a new play style necessary. Good light pilots will still be good light pilots and bad light pilots will just pilot something else.

That's exactly the point. Lights should not have been the brawlers that they were to begin with, it's never been their job, and it never should have been.

Lights are the scouts. They find the enemy base or the enemy formation themselves, poke them a bit and then run the F*** away, either in an attempt to draw the enemy into an ambush where the main friendly force is waiting, or distract them long enough for the main force to flank from the other side and throw the enemy into chaos.

But, the big problem is the maps we have to work with. None of the maps, with the exception maybe being Alpine Peaks and Polar Highlands, are big enough to allow for any other tactics aside from find the enemy, shoot with long range weapons and slowly close into brawling distance.

While I never played it, MW:LL did maps the right way. They were flipping HUGE, and they made the terrain an actual factor in the battle, not simply arbitrarily slowing down the game by the convoluted mess every flipping map in MWO is. Yes, some maps in MWO actually have decent cover from LRMs or whatever, but not enough of them do, and the gameplay always ends up being confined to part of the map that's probably 1/4 the size of the actual map.

That's bad design no matter how you explain or defend it.

Until the map makers at PGI get that through their flipping heads we will have the same constant, stagnant gameplay we've been plagued with for the last 3-something years.

[Wibbledtodeath]

I can see why people are all freaking out- I can. Especially if you just purchased a hero in the recent sale- and it has grown without compensatory quirks. However PGI has a history of doing these things in stages, rather than fully balancing things out of the gate. Sometimes I think wires get crossed (e.g. jester reduced durability quirks happened 1 patch early), sometimes things just get done in stages because of the nature of monthly patches (e.g. Energy draw/aka Ghost heat 2.0 will help reduce light insta kills and help balance things a bit for lower tonnage/fewer hard point mechs- but it is a few patches off). More quirks will come- but don't expect them to make everything equal- they won't (nor is that a desirable outcome in my opinion).

Ultimately though a consistent (not realistic- because all mechs in lore are vastly over sized for tonnage) rather than ad hoc sizing method is the right way to go.Quirks won't make lights and heavies equally relevant to 12v12 deathball games- That meta will always shift resulting in winners and losers- and lights are more likely to be the losers of that format. To make a variety of mechs relevant you need variety in maps, game modes and tonnage limits. To demand anything else just reinforces no win Meta Warrior Online shifts rather than delivering enjoyable and varied MechWarrior game (PGI's MWO is actually pretty well balanced compared to the older MW games- its the variety in missions which we remember and love).

If you want lights to be useable, demand new game modes/maps that play to the strengths of swift mechs and limited tonnage, not buffs to make them equal in firepower or durability to heavier classes.

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 19 June 2016 - 07:46 PM.

[Tarogato]

Trashhead, on 18 June 2016 - 01:54 AM, said:

1. We, the community, asked for a global rescale.
That was US.
PGI just did it.
Now it's wrong?

We didn't ask for a global rescale. At least, I don't remember anybody asking for it. What we asked was for some of the outliers to be rescaled. PGI finally gave in, and they gave us those polls to vote which ones were priority because PGI didn't think they had the resources to scale all mechs. But then they released it wasn't that bad, so they decided "hey, we're actually just going to rescale all of the mechs from the ground up."

I'm not going to complain that they decided to do it, I'm thankful. But I *am* going to complain that they might not have gone about it quite right.

Trashhead, on 18 June 2016 - 01:54 AM, said:

In comparison:
Arctic Cheetah vs. Spider: Spider is WAY to small NOW, so the fix is justified.
Arctic Cheetah vs, Firestrarter (which is 5 tons heavier): Firestarter is actualy the same size now (now = pre-Patch).
Jenner / II C: both are definitely smaller then the Adder, despite same tonnage -> fix is justified.
Arctic Cheetah vs. Panther: Panther appears to be a bit smaller then the ACH (despite the Panther being 5 tons heavier).

So, all in all, PGI did a good job with the rescale.
Just because you don't like it, does not mean they did a bad job.

If you wan't PGI to listen to your arguments and "be rational", how about you do the same... at least once in a while.

Spider was a good change, yes. It was a tiny bit too small.

But the Adder was an outlier. It was hyuuuuugge compared to all the 35-tonners. Not very many people ever complained that the lights in general were too small. Instead of scaling the Adder down to match the other lights, PGI scaled all the other lights (well, the 35-tonners) up to match the Adder. This makes no sense from a gameplay perspective and has the potential to ruin balance and even ruin an entire weight class.

In fact, the problem persists outside of the light class. In general, most mediums were overscaled compared to everything else. You can see it in the comparison I made long ago: https://www.reddit.c...ia_pixel_count/

I'm sure PGI's volumemetric comparison revealed similar results - many mediums being overscaled compared to everything else (I'd love to see their before and after numbers). But instead of shrinking the mediums, PGI made everything in the game a little bigger, except for the mediums. Actually, even the Griffin (probably the largest medium in the game) got bigger. So yay, the mediums now fit in with the other weight classes. I guess.

Edited by Tarogato, 19 June 2016 - 08:45 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

They did not scale each weight class independently. They scaled all the Mechs. That means all the weight classes are now scaled properly in relationship to one another. And how anyone can look at that Catapult module and say that it is the same size as a light truly boggles my mind. Even if you only consider the two dimensions that you can see in the photo the Catapult is still bigger. It is taller and it is a lot wider. Then if you consider the depth of it vs the humanoid Mechs there is just no comparison.

Wow. It is amazing how people see only what they want to see.. Maybe it would be best to wait until Tuesday afternoon before you get all hysterical.

[Tarogato]

Rampage, on 19 June 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

And how anyone can look at that Catapult module and say that it is the same size as a light truly boggles my mind.

I won't be one to say the Catapult is the same size as a light now, but it's a bit too close for comfort if you ask me.











Also, this image from kapusta11's thread should put things into perspective:

Edited by Tarogato, 20 June 2016 - 12:59 AM.

[MOBAjobg]

Someone had commented before that my aim from the KDK-3 with 4xcuac10 is poorer than that of a grandmother. I shall prove them wrong now except for the Locust.

[Nexano]

Quote

I REPEAT THERE'S A 30 TON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO.

Cata have about 3x more side profile and more massive face profile. What's wrong with you dude. You just destroyed your own words weigh to zero by placing this images.

[Yozzman]

Locust OP pls make it bigger....


Panther is really too big

[Weeny Machine]

As if streaks weren't enough to get lights killed...you needed to enlarge them.

I wonder why this class is suffering indirectly or directly from nerf after nerf after nerf while the heavy mech queue usually is around 40%+

Here a golfclap for you "performance"

https://youtu.be/CP6v4T3VT7I

[DemonRaziel]

Alan Davion, on 19 June 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Lights should not have been the brawlers that they were to begin with, it's never been their job, and it never should have been.
Lights are the scouts.

Whenever I read a statement like this, I die a little on the inside, regardless of the topic being discussed.

Though I agree with your sentiment on the map sizes and geography, even then all Light's shouldn't be relegated to the roles of scouts.

Nor should they be able to stand still and trade shots with their bigger opponents, of course. But for the most part they can't do that - there's no way a Light, or even a smaller Medium can withstand the barrage of the Heavies and Assaults and their "brawling abilities" were, are and always will be dependent on mobility and not getting hit.

That won't change with the resizing, just not getting hit will be harder and or easier for some 'Mechs due to their new sizes.

I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep about this, it's not some major scr3w up that should put the forums to flames yet again. It's a balance shift that will chase some more players off of Lights and that's an already existing pattern for a long time.

[Xaxius Colnier]

as one of the few dedicated inner sphere light pilots out there I have to say WHAT THE !

[Lily from animove]

CycKath, on 17 June 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Well, that's an eye opener.



Anybody want to buy a light 'Mech say Stinger and Wasp Mech Pack now assuming this scale for 20 tonners?

stinger some variants DOA --> because only arm wepaon mounts. thats MLX level of bad. Not sure which ones have torso wepaons.

the wasp, not sure also too much arm weapons, however I would torally wonder how PGI impelments leg M hardpoints. But some variants come with torso E's so they would work.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 June 2016 - 03:36 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

DemonRaziel, on 20 June 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

Whenever I read a statement like this, I die a little on the inside, regardless of the topic being discussed.

Though I agree with your sentiment on the map sizes and geography, even then all Light's shouldn't be relegated to the roles of scouts.

Nor should they be able to stand still and trade shots with their bigger opponents, of course. But for the most part they can't do that - there's no way a Light, or even a smaller Medium can withstand the barrage of the Heavies and Assaults and their "brawling abilities" were, are and always will be dependent on mobility and not getting hit.

That won't change with the resizing, just not getting hit will be harder and or easier for some 'Mechs due to their new sizes.

I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep about this, it's not some major scr3w up that should put the forums to flames yet again. It's a balance shift that will chase some more players off of Lights and that's an already existing pattern for a long time.

It is not just the re-sizing. Aren't you aware that a lot of mechs will go up one notch in their movement archtype because of their new size? Surprise! All your turning, accel, deccel, etc gots suddenly worse along with your bigger hit profile

[DemonRaziel]

Bush Hopper, on 20 June 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

It is not just the re-sizing. Aren't you aware that a lot of mechs will go up one notch in their movement archtype because of their new size? Surprise! All your turning, accel, deccel, etc gots suddenly worse along with your bigger hit profile

Right. I've actually mentioned that myself in a post a few pages ago.

It's a double whammy that can effectively wipe out the population of these 'Mechs (e.g. Spiders). Or, in case of Spiders, reduce it to 1, to be precise

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Tarogato, on 19 June 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

I won't be one to say the Catapult is the same size as a light now, but it's a bit too close for comfort if you ask me.











Also, this image from kapusta11's thread should put things into perspective:

Holy ****, I knew it was bad, but THAT bad???

Without the missile ears, the K2 and Jester should be even WORSE of a gamebreaker.

Edited by Keshav Murali, 20 June 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

BAHS, on 19 June 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

I will wait and see how this plays out. I can definitely see some greater difficulty in playing brawling/back stabbing lights but the range game will be viable.

Exactly. Brawling was nearly dead before. Now you will get even more of peek-a-boo. This game is getting not diverse but monotonous.

It seems that with PGI's system humanoid mechs get the shaft. Whatever...let's play all MW:0 - Heavy&Assault Mech edition. I mean the light queue was tiny anyway compared to the 40%+ queue of heavies. If it hits next to zero - I bet PGI wouldn't give a rat's ***

This is most likely why the size of 30-35t mechs got increased because some heavy and assaults got caught with their pants down while lolalphaing their way to victory. As if sneaking up to the fatties and delivering your payload at about 100m wasn't hard enough before. Pfff.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 20 June 2016 - 04:27 AM.

[Miles McQuiston]

Alan Davion, on 19 June 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

That's exactly the point. Lights should not have been the brawlers that they were to begin with, it's never been their job, and it never should have been.

Lights are the scouts. They find the enemy base or the enemy formation themselves, poke them a bit and then run the F*** away, either in an attempt to draw the enemy into an ambush where the main friendly force is waiting, or distract them long enough for the main force to flank from the other side and throw the enemy into chaos.

But, the big problem is the maps we have to work with. None of the maps, with the exception maybe being Alpine Peaks and Polar Highlands, are big enough to allow for any other tactics aside from find the enemy, shoot with long range weapons and slowly close into brawling distance.

While I never played it, MW:LL did maps the right way. They were flipping HUGE, and they made the terrain an actual factor in the battle, not simply arbitrarily slowing down the game by the convoluted mess every flipping map in MWO is. Yes, some maps in MWO actually have decent cover from LRMs or whatever, but not enough of them do, and the gameplay always ends up being confined to part of the map that's probably 1/4 the size of the actual map.

That's bad design no matter how you explain or defend it.

Until the map makers at PGI get that through their flipping heads we will have the same constant, stagnant gameplay we've been plagued with for the last 3-something years.

I am not disagreeing with the fact that lights should never have been brawlers and I do agree that there are few maps where a light can effectively "do its job". My point is simply that this will change light mech play. I await the changes to assault mode and there has been a shift towards larger maps as new maps are released. I also don't feel the light queue should go empty as well. My personal opinion is that the queue should have weight class incentives based on the 3/3/3/3. I.E. if there is only 1% light mechs on the field there should be a huge cbill bonus for joining a match in one. I.E. any class that is below 25% in the queue should get cbill bonuses and anything over 25% should get a cbill (less but still some) reduction.

The only way the poke and fade will work (ambush or distraction) is if they give enough quirks to light mech range weapons (cooldown/range) to turn heads. My opinion is that the harassment has to be enough to warrant attention or cause movement of the enemy force. Too often it is not which is why you see the Raven 3L 2LL or 2ERLL, Shadowcats 2XPPC/LPL, occasional spider dragging the match on for 5 minutes shooting and fading. The point here being they were not effective enough to change the match while the "match" was being played. Hell sometimes they even pull off the victory because the entire enemy team is wrecked, but the enemy team is wrecked because the friendly team kept it close. Maybe the answer is a reduction in sensor detection range of lights.