423 replies to this topic

[DAEDALOS513]

Countess, on 19 June 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Flash news! PGI listened to role model user 'Tempest Omega' and now balanced the sizes with quirks!

All mech are the same in size, except they now have more butt!

Wolfhound:
+30 Structure everywhere, +40 armor everywhere! +80% heat loss!

Come on, I can't really believe you're defending this (of course I say this because I take a normal person as a reference, but Internet is filled with people so who knows) Still, I don't need you to take me seriously. If defending heavy mechs with light size and just balance with quirks is what you're after then go ahead. Thank god you're not a developer because I'm pretty sure you'd get fired in two days. Just look at the entire history of the mechwarrior franchise (even this one before this patch) and it'll prove you wrong. Tell anyone that a catapult has roughly the same size as a light and they'll laugh at you, even if you try to justify it with the catapult having a beak instead of a torso, but whatever.

Very well put. Although it's always good to hear both sides of the fence, in the end, common sense should and must prevail. At it's root common sense is a feeling and when we start to overthink and over-complicate things, common sense gets thrown right out the window. A wolf-hound and a panther the same overall size as a catalpult doesn't make sense and just feels WRONG. These were two of my favorite mechs but despite that, I'm a logical and reasoning person.. I just don't find any logic or reason behind this. Lights are becoming more and more rare on the battlefield, now they will become a true novelty to see.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 20 June 2016 - 05:38 AM.

[goodsoohe]

Why aren't they rescailing Commando!? Isn't Commando's head size too small to put a pilot in it?

[DAEDALOS513]

Xaxius Colnier, on 20 June 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

as one of the few dedicated inner sphere light pilots out there I have to say WHAT THE !

WHAT THE INDEED!

[Precentor Ward]

Pity to see PGI listening to a tiny, vocal part of the community and screwing everything up. I'll say it straight, give me back my Wolfhound. This is a new kind of special, ffs.. If you're going to ignore everyone anyway at least put an energy point in the head so I can shoot over the top of the heavies..

[MW Waldorf Statler]

give a Mech 3x PPc =21 Tons, take away 2 PPCs now the mech is for 14t smaller ???? give away Ammo , the Mech has now smaller Volume???

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 June 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Does anyone have the link of that McGral18 thread where he and I tried to explain why the volumetric system is the WRONG method to rescale?

See here: left cube is the double of the right one:


That's why common sense suggests NOT TO APPLY REALITY to a videogame.
BUT PGI doesn't even read their own forum...... so they went full r3t4rded

put in the left Cube 1 single PPC and 5 HS and in the right Cube 2x20 LRM +8t Ammo+Loading mechanicnow place the LRM and all in the left Cube ,and the PPC in the right Cube...S**** Weapons and Ammo must have Place ...taking 8t in an 2x2m Steel Cube ,and in a 2x2m Paper Cube which Cube can holding the Weight of the 8t?
the Geometric volume model from PGI is nonsense, is a Full loaded Truck bigger as a half Loaded Truck ? or has a other Geometric Volume...is a Panther with a single PPC bigger as a Catapult with Missles ,ammunition for it ,Load Mechanism ???? What is the Weight and Thickness of the Ammo ?have all Mechs the same restless filled Volume ?

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 20 June 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[STEF_]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 20 June 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

put in the left Cube 1 single PPC and 5 HS and in the right Cube 2x20 LRM +8t Ammo+Loading mechanicnow place the LRM and all in the left Cube ,and the PPC in the right Cube...S**** Weapons and Ammo must have Place ...taking 8t in an 2x2m Steel Cube ,and in a 2x2m Paper Cube which Cube can holding the Weight of the 8t?
the Geometric volume model from PGI is nonsense, is a Full loaded Truck bigger as a half Loaded Truck ? or has a other Geometric Volume...is a Panther with a single PPC bigger as a Catapult with Missles ,ammunition for it ,Load Mechanism ???? What is the Weight and Thickness of the Ammo ?have all Mechs the same restless filled Volume ?

Tomorrow we'll laugh very hard.
But being a light pilot...I'll cry too....

[MW Waldorf Statler]

packing my suitcase ... throw everything loose inside, grab everything perfect and space-saving use every other stuff with other volume, weight and space requirements...

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 20 June 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 20 June 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

give a Mech 3x PPc =21 Tons, take away 2 PPCs now the mech is for 14t smaller ???? give away Ammo , the Mech has now smaller Volume???

Good point, but they might have went with stripped (empty & unarmored) weights for all 'Mechs for the volume comparison.

But considering you can fit different amount of items into different 'Mechs, there's no reason why every single one should have the same volume/density. So the volumetric desing really falls apart at that point.

[DAEDALOS513]

Just like polar highlands was created to appease the new players fresh off the steam boat.. u know, giving them a strictly LRM based map to trick them into thinking they are good players and help them get hooked on the game.. (first ones free...). Well with this rescale they are now appeasing the bulk of the players which only bring heavy and assault mechs (look at weight-class %'s for PQ).

Most of their decisions are business-based, ppl, at least those decisions that will affect their bottom-line. Whatever will bring new blood in and keep most players happy.. right OR wrong.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 20 June 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Lily from animove, on 20 June 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

stinger some variants DOA --> because only arm wepaon mounts. thats MLX level of bad. Not sure which ones have torso wepaons.

the wasp, not sure also too much arm weapons, however I would torally wonder how PGI impelments leg M hardpoints. But some variants come with torso E's so they would work.

Well, let's take a look at the Stinger and Wasp variants, and maybe the Valkyrie while we're at it and figure out what weapon points they'll have and where.

STG-3R
Stock: 1 Medium Laser, right arm. 2 Machine Guns, left arm.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm. 2 Ballistic points, left arm.

STG-3G
Stock: 2 Medium Lasers. 1 in each arm.
MWO: 4 Energy points, 2 in each arm.

STG-3Gb
Stock: 2 Medium Lasers, 1 in each arm. 1 Small Laser, I'm gonna say probably the head.
MWO: 5-6 Energy points. 2 in each arm, 1 in the head or 2 in the Center torso.

STG-5M
Stock:1 Medium Laser, 1 AMS, both in right arm, and 1 Flamer in left arm.
MWO: 4 Energy points, 2 in each arm. 1-2 AMS points, either the right arm as normal, or both Side Torsos.

That's all the "current" tech versions for the Stinger, all the others use tech we don't have access to just yet and I dare not speculate on how some of them might be implemented... With one exception.

STG-6L
Stock: 2 Medium Lasers, one in each arm. It also has ECM and Stealth armor.
MWO: 4 Energy points, 2 in each arm. ECM probably in one of the Side Torsos.

The Stealth Armor I imagine would be a good way for PGI to experiment with Info War again, making stealth armor a part of the radar dep/target retention system. A mech equipped with stealth armor can drop an enemy lock by ducking behind cover, similar to radar dep, and along with the ECM make the mech take longer to acquire a target lock with, unless assisted by an outside source, such as a TAG laser for instance.

All the other mechs use stuff like Light PPCs, RL15s, MML3s, LFEs and Improved JJs. The only thing I can really comment on would be the Rocket Launcher 15s, those will probably just be used like longer ranged SRMs when they're added to MWO if I had to guess.

Anyway, the Wasp. Which has a lot more viable builds for the "current" tech restriction as described by Russ.

WSP-1A
Stock: 1 Medium Laser, right arm, 1 SRM2, I'm gonna say left leg.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, probably left torso or arm, maybe both side torsos.

WSP-1D
Stock: 1 Medium Laser, right arm, 2 Small Lasers, left arm, 1 Flamer, left leg.
MWO: 6 Energy points. 2 in each arm, 2 in left torso.

WSP-1K
Stock: 1 Medium Laser, right arm, 1 Machine Gun, left leg.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Ballistic points, left arm.

WSP-1L
Stock: 1 SRM4, right arm.
MWO: 2-4 Missile points, 1-2 in each arm.

WSP-1S
Stock: 1 Medium Pulse Laser, right arm, 2 Small lasers, right torso, 1 Flamer, left torso.
MWO: 6 Energy points. 2 right arm, 2 right torso, 2 left torso.

WSP-1W
Stock: 6 Small lasers, 2 in each arm, 1 in each side torso.
MWO: 6-8 Energy points. 2 in each arm, 1-2 in each side torso.

WSP-3M
Stock: 1 Medium Pulse Laser, right arm, 1 SRM2 right torso.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, right torso.

Now, the 3M has an interesting little bit going for it, according to Sarna the 3M carries a special communications system and a special targeting system. Given we have the Cyclops up, this could be another chance for PGI to revisit Info War by giving the 3M abilities similar to the Cyclops.

WSP-3W
Stock: 6 Small Pulse Lasers, 2 in right arm, 2 in left torso and 2 in left leg.
MWO: 6-8 Energy points. 2 in each arm, 1-2 in each side torso.

WSP-3S
Stock: 2 ER Medium Lasers, 1 in each arm, ECM, TAG.
MWO: 4-6 Energy points. 2 in each arm, 1-2 in head or center torso.

As you can see the Wasp has a lot more going for it due to the "current" tech restriction, but, they are all also extremely similar, with one or two mild exceptions.

There are 4 more variants which I didn't list because they all use more advanced tech. I only included the 3S out of the "higher" tech levels because the ER Medium Lasers cannot be that hard to code, compared to RLs, MMLs, yadda-yadda.

And finally we have the Valkyrie.

VLK-QA
Stock: 1 Medium Laser, right arm, 1 LRM10, left torso.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, left torso.

VLK-QF
Stock: 1 Flamer, right arm, 1 LRM10, left torso.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, left torso.

VLK-QD
Stock: 1 Medium Pulse Laser, right arm, 1 LRM10 with Artemis, left torso.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, left torso.

VLK-QD1
Stock: 1 ER Medium Laser, right arm, 1 LRM15 with Artemis, left torso.
MWO: 2 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, left torso.

Similar to the WSP-3M, the QD1 has a an ER Medium and a Targeting Computer. Again, these are likely to be the next "tech" additions we see to the game in order for IS/Clan balance to be achieved far easier than they have been able to recently.

VLK-QD3
Stock: 2 ER Medium Lasers, left arm, LRM5 right torso.
MWO: 2-3 Energy points, right arm, 2 Missile points, left torso.

All the other Valkyrie variants have been left out due to using stuff like Light ACs, MMLs, Improved JJs, Light PPCs and LFEs.

Again, much like the Stinger and Wasp, the Valkyrie is primarily variations on a theme. Granted this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but with every mech being very similar, you have to wonder what PGI would do.

The MWO hard point estimates I made are naturally rather conservative in most cases. I fully expect that if we were to see these mechs next, some mechs would have anywhere up to 4 energy points in an arm, or 4 missile points spread across the side torsos. Even AMS added into them, as only one mech, the STG-5M has any AMS going for it.

That said most of the mechs really only differ in that some have different engines stock. For instance the VLK-QD1 and QD3. The QD1 has an XL150 while the QD3 has a STD210.

There's also the fact that none of the mechs have a "canon" hero version, but I'm sure PGI could remedy that easy enough.

But yeah, there's my thoughts on how the Stinger, Wasp and Valkyrie will turn out.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

[Bastionk]

I just want to say that I disagree with making most of the IS lights bigger, for pretty much the reasons that have already been mentioned by other forum users on this thread.

I don't want PGI to interpret silence from players like myself, who rarely ever post on these forums, as approval for these changes.

I do wish that PGI would add a section in the OP that explained why they think this change is something that is good for the game. If I understood what they were attempting to accomplish with this change, then at least I wouldn't be left guessing their intent and just assuming that they are out of touch with their own game.

[Kalleballe]

You guys need to compare scale in this img, not mechlab......

Edit: Good job, finally the way it should have been from the beginning.

Edited by Kalleballe, 20 June 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Bastionk, on 20 June 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

If I understood what they were attempting to accomplish with this change

It is pretty easy:
Lights were obviously too tough for PGI's but mostly heavy and assault pilot's liking (just face it, the reason is really that simple). Streaks and LRMs were not enough obviously to make a light's life hard nor were seismic, UAVs or the fact that you need to get VERY close with most light brawlers to use your payload efficiently.

Then add those two things:

1. that many heavies and assaults still laser spam which can be nicely spread across a light mech and some ticks even miss the light when he runs into cover. Of course it is disturbing for a heavy/assault to lolalpha something and it evades a lot and suddenly you are overheated and the bugger closes in to check you apart

2. that some heavy and assault pilots which use ACs/PPCs suddenly found out that they aren't that good at aiming as their formers laser hitscan weapons suggested and miss tons of shots on evasive lights

Of course PGI had to do something about it. I mean you need to please your heavy 40%+ queue. Why do all heavies and assaults keep their agility quirks (some even get some) while many lights move up one notch in the movement archtype making them even less agile on top of being larger?


The result will be this: people will play ACHs (which will be largely unaffected), Ravens or Locusts (which will now be a pain to be hit). That is, until they catch enough heavies and assaults with their pants down as before and the whining will continue until these get nerfed as well.


The worst thing is, though, it will take MONTHS until there will be a change again to help lights. I really hope the heavy queue will break the 50% barrier because of these changes

Edit: Sure, the Oxide's structure quirks were over the top, however, they could have been nerfed.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 20 June 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[DemonRaziel]

Bastionk, on 20 June 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

I do wish that PGI would add a section in the OP that explained why they think this change is something that is good for the game. If I understood what they were attempting to accomplish with this change, then at least I wouldn't be left guessing their intent and just assuming that they are out of touch with their own game.

They tried to "normalize" the size to weight ratio.

So they came up with an arbitrary density number and based on it calculated the "accurate" size of all 'Mechs.

This was done regardless of balance impact these changes might do and lead to some serious changes for 'Mechs like Catapult and the humanoid Lights (and many others).

Now I personally don't see why there should be a single density for all the 'Mechs and am strongly opposed to normalization at the cost of balance.

While this was apparently (or allegedly) not a balance-panch, I think that PGI have failed (or refused) to see the impact this will inevitable have on balance of the affected 'Mechs.

This is, of course, exacerbated by the fact, that Lights already are in a bad spot and are a hugely underpopulated class for several other reasons - mainly survivability that just took another hit in most cases, Locust disregarding.

[Ovion]

Kalleballe, on 20 June 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

You guys need to compare scale in this img, not mechlab......

Edit: Good job, finally the way it should have been from the beginning.

Looked at both.
A 20-25% increase in size on these mechs wasn't really reasonable.
Making already fragile mechs 20-25% bigger AND nerfing their mobility via movement archtype, combined with the previous relative movement nerf.

Lights are already the least popular class (which is a shame), whacking all this on top will make them even less popular.

[Jack N Dew]

I think my lites are going up on blocks.

[Kalleballe]

At least on the scale reference chart the crab looks significantly smaller than the catapult.

[Nexano]

I like this hysteria about light mechs. PGI did things right! TY for your hard work. Light pseudopilots won't be in game now and only skilled and persistent ppl will pilot them.