35 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

So, a lot of people I talk to say that, out of the Hunchbacks, the 4J and the 4SP are the weakest. I can understand this sentiment with the 4J, as LRMs in general aren't too useful at the moment. However, I am unsure as to whether this reputation is deserved with the 4SP. For those of us who don't know, the HBK 4SP is orientated towards the use of SRMs, with it's quirks which help reduce cooldown, heat gen (I believe) and spread. It still has a respectable number of energy hardpoints, being five, but the 4SP's greatest advantage over the other Hunchbacks is it's even weapons distribution. As anyone who has played a Hunchback can attest, protecting your right torso is not only top priority, but also a pain in the rear. Loose that, and you effectively loose about 90% of your firepower, even if you are using Gridiron. But, the 4SP lacks this crippling weakness. Loosing an ST is still bad, but not as bad as loosing your right ST on any other Hunchback variant. The IIC Hunchies are quite different, but they are supposed to be. Here is a build I designed to maximise your damage output. As you are using SRMs, you should get in close to get the most damage out of it.

Hresvelgr

[Wintersdark]

Requiemking, on 15 June 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

So, a lot of people I talk to say that, out of the Hunchbacks, the 4J and the 4SP are the weakest. I can understand this sentiment with the 4J, as LRMs in general aren't too useful at the moment. However, I am unsure as to whether this reputation is deserved with the 4SP. For those of us who don't know, the HBK 4SP is orientated towards the use of SRMs, with it's quirks which help reduce cooldown, heat gen (I believe) and spread. It still has a respectable number of energy hardpoints, being five, but the 4SP's greatest advantage over the other Hunchbacks is it's even weapons distribution. As anyone who has played a Hunchback can attest, protecting your right torso is not only top priority, but also a pain in the rear. Loose that, and you effectively loose about 90% of your firepower, even if you are using Gridiron. But, the 4SP lacks this crippling weakness. Loosing an ST is still bad, but not as bad as loosing your right ST on any other Hunchback variant. The IIC Hunchies are quite different, but they are supposed to be. Here is a build I designed to maximise your damage output. As you are using SRMs, you should get in close to get the most damage out of it.

Hresvelgr

I appreciate the goal, but that's a kinda bad build.

The 4SP is unique amoungst hunchbacks in it's ability to run a large engine without issues, and it should do so. First, because it's weapon systems are all short ranged (so it needs to get into range fast, and out again if necessary similarly fast) and second because forgoing a 250 rated engine (and in this case even 225!) costs you 2 TrueDubs.

This is a substantial amount of free heat dissipation you're losing out on - basically, a full DHS worth. With 5 ML and 2 SRM6, you want all the dissipation you can get.

[Wintersdark]

Something like HBK-4SP is more ideal. It offers just 2% less cooling efficiency despite carrying 2 less DHS, adds Artemis to hit more focused, and runs 20kph faster. That's not insignificant at all. Going from 76kph to 96kph is huge, and significantly impacts your agility, twist and turn.

[Requiemking]

Ok, can drop some ammo for a larger engine on Hresvelgr.

EDIT: Ok, so If I drop two tons of Ammo and a heatsink I can fit a 245 Standard engine in there.

Edited by Requiemking, 15 June 2016 - 09:37 PM.

[Wintersdark]

It does carry less ammo, but 6t ammo for 2 SRM6 is utterly ridiculous. One way or another, the battle is over long before then. 2t is good for 430 damage from the ASRM's alone, and you're also packing 5 ML's burning for 25 damage a pop.

[Requiemking]

Ok, you have a point. I'm just a sucker for underappreciated mechs, and the missile Hunchies are in that list for me.

[Void Angel]

Requiemking, on 15 June 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

Ok, can drop some ammo for a larger engine on Hresvelgr.

EDIT: Ok, so If I drop two tons of Ammo and a heatsink I can fit a 245 Standard engine in there.

OK, first, I'd recommend This Build. Almost identical to Wintersdark, but I use an extra ton of ammo instead of the head laser - this is a heat efficiency and control group decision for me. The added laser doesn't really fit well with the arms, and if I discard it I can get an efficient Left/Right/SRM weapon group setup. In either case, it's far superior to that stock 220 engine, for a number of reasons. The speed allows you to spread damage in order to keep hammering people with SRMs while making use of the 4SP's amazing structure quirks.

However, the 'mech does suffer from several issues; first, it's a medium 'mech with its weapons spread around a relatively wide chassis - compare its model to the Shadowhawk, or any of the other Hunchbacks.The 4SPs bilateral, hunch-less design makes it difficult to poke with effectively, while at the same time making it much more difficult to place all of your SRMs on the same area of most targets (since they're converging at the target point in a 'V' instead of all moving along the same vector.) This means that while the 4SP has great weapon quirks, it can't effectively use those quirks as well as its cousins, particularly without exposing itself completely as a target - in other words, it's got those structure quirks because it needs them.

Now, much of this is a metagame issue. With so many mid-to-long-range powerhouses around, staying in close combat with a Medium, however tough, is... disadvised. Dire Wolves, Dakkacrabs, laser vomit builds, and Gauss snipers - to say nothing of the overpowered monstrosity that is the KDK-3 right now - will all make short work of a Hunchback, or any Medium, who's exposed. To top it all off, your heavy armament, those ASRM6s, absolutely do not work past 270m. So, to really shine, you need teammates to go in with you (preferably a brawling Heavy or Assault that you support and defend,) but that doesn't happen terribly often for most of the game, leaving the 4SP disadvantaged compared to its cousins' far more effective poking efficiency.

All of these factors combine together to make the 4SP - while awesome on paper - fail to excite in the current tactical environment.

[Requiemking]

Void Angel, on 15 June 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

OK, first, I'd recommend This Build. Almost identical to Wintersdark, but I use an extra ton of ammo instead of the head laser - this is a heat efficiency and control group decision for me. The added laser doesn't really fit well with the arms, and if I discard it I can get an efficient Left/Right/SRM weapon group setup. In either case, it's far superior to that stock 220 engine, for a number of reasons. The speed allows you to spread damage in order to keep hammering people with SRMs while making use of the 4SP's amazing structure quirks.

However, the 'mech does suffer from several issues; first, it's a medium 'mech with its weapons spread around a relatively wide chassis - compare its model to the Shadowhawk, or any of the other Hunchbacks.The 4SPs bilateral, hunch-less design makes it difficult to poke with effectively, while at the same time making it much more difficult to place all of your SRMs on the same area of most targets (since they're converging at the target point in a 'V' instead of all moving along the same vector.) This means that while the 4SP has great weapon quirks, it can't effectively use those quirks as well as its cousins, particularly without exposing itself completely as a target - in other words, it's got those structure quirks because it needs them.

Now, much of this is a metagame issue. With so many mid-to-long-range powerhouses around, staying in close combat with a Medium, however tough, is... disadvised. Dire Wolves, Dakkacrabs, laser vomit builds, and Gauss snipers - to say nothing of the overpowered monstrosity that is the KDK-3 right now - will all make short work of a Hunchback, or any Medium, who's exposed. To top it all off, your heavy armament, those ASRM6s, absolutely do not work past 270m. So, to really shine, you need teammates to go in with you (preferably a brawling Heavy or Assault that you support and defend,) but that doesn't happen terribly often for most of the game, leaving the 4SP disadvantaged compared to its cousins' far more effective poking efficiency.

All of these factors combine together to make the 4SP - while awesome on paper - fail to excite in the current tactical environment.

You have a point, but the 4SP is, in some ways, harder to cripple than its cousins. Thanks to it's more even weapons spread, loosing your side torso, while still bad, isn't nearly as crippling as loosing the right side torso of any other Hunchback variant and, especially those variants with a protruding hunch, it is really easy to loose that critical side torso and thus loose the majority of your firepower.

[Void Angel]

It's not much harder to cripple - it's harder to destroy. Sure, you don't lose the arm lasers quite as fast, because your torso isn't falling off as soon. But you still take criticals to that exposed side torso structure, which reduces you to less than a Jenner's firepower really quick. And when the enemy team sees open armor, they go for blood, so you're going to find yourself focused down - your toughness will help more in small engagements, but you're still at a disadvantage compared to Hunchbacks who can not only use their torso guns at greater than 300m, but have a much easier time putting that damage all on one place. Consider, as well, that the right torso of a Hunchback 4G is actually tougher than its center torso, getting 18 actual bonus armor.

Trust me, I've had a lot of time to think about this; the Hunchback 4SP used to be my favorite Hunchback, and was the third 'mech I ever bought, if memory serves. But there is a reason why the 4SP was bumped up to being literally doubled structure (the original quirks were not as strong,) yet is still under-represented. You can play it, and do great things - but it's definitely less effective than the other Hunchback variants.

[epikt]

Who said the 4SP was weak????
It's currently the only Hunchback (Inner Sphere) frequently used in competition, for its ability to tank damage like crazy thanks to massive structure quirks. Sure it's situational (it's more suited for light drops, like drop 1 in MRBC, than heavier decks) but it definitely has its place.

[Lily from animove]

CT ammo? you like it risky, do you?

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 June 2016 - 01:02 AM.

[mogs01gt]

The issue isnt really that the 4sp sucks, the issue is that the game has too much long range firepower and too many maps that supports long range fighting. Once you get on brawling maps, the 4sp rips through mechs but sadly the Griff does it better.

Edited by mogs01gt, 16 June 2016 - 04:47 AM.

[Nullmancer]

HBK-4SP - XL engine 'cause i also like to live dangerously. Also, don't have to be a slave to quirks, Med pulses are nice and cool.

[epikt]

Pulse lasers (3 mediums or 5 smalls) are indeed better than standard lasers since it fits a brawling style better. But going XL is forgeting everything what the 4SP is good at (tanking like crazy). => STD engine.

Quote

sadly the Griff does it better

Nope, they just don't do the same thing. The Griffin (2N or 3M) has higher damage output (and has jets), but is much easier to take down.

[TercieI]

epikt, on 16 June 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Pulse lasers (3 mediums or 5 smalls) are indeed better than standard lasers since it fits a brawling style better. But going XL is forgeting everything what the 4SP is good at (tanking like crazy). => STD engine.


Nope, they just don't do the same thing. The Griffin (2N or 3M) has higher damage output (and has jets), but is much easier to take down.

As usual, epikt has it surrounded. It's not bad, but it's very situational. Here's another situation: CW scouting vs StreakCrows. They take an eternity to bring it down.

[Raso]

IMHO The 4SP is one of the better mid range, direct fire LRM mechs. Allow me to explain why.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...694f307a5646301

The 4SP has amazing agility. This allows it to get in and out of position. This positioning allows you to attain battlefield positions where you can stack your TAG and Artemis bonuses for amazing grouping. Ideally you want to engage at ranges of 260m to 400m. This allows you to use your 4 Mlas (which are nothing to scoff at) along side your LRMs to maximum effect.

Your role is to make other mechs want to not stand in front of your anymore and to punish them if they do not oblige your insistence. As a rather inoffensive medium (and an LRM carrier at that) you may as well have a cloaking device if you stand near a more dedicated, direct fire heavy or assault mech. This is how you get all of the face time you'll need to maintain a LoS LRM lock as well as the TAG bonus. Your speed allows you to move from position to position to support whom ever needs it and while your LRMs are best used under 400m they still allow you to contribute to fights beyond your Mlas range if you have a position which allows you to do so.

Now regarding the LRM5s...... Yes, it is true that LRM5s are weak to AMS. However you would be amazed how many mechs don't equip any AMS at all because they need the room for more DHS or because LRMs have a reputation of being weak.

I have had great success with this build. I would not advise using it in scouting missions or in CW but it makes a fantastic fire support mech for quick play matches.

[InspectorG]

No, no, no.

Where is your sense of adventure????

Why bring a gun when you can bring a knife???

[TercieI]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2016 - 05:54 AM, said:

No, no, no.

Where is your sense of adventure????

Why bring a gun when you can bring a knife???

That's a near copy of my fave build on it (the 270 especially is a wrinkle I like). Add FF though and get your armor and some ammo and drop armor for another DHS.

[Raso]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2016 - 05:54 AM, said:

No, no, no.

Where is your sense of adventure????

Why bring a gun when you can bring a knife???

I've actually never tried boating SPL on the 4SP (I use to run them on the 4P back in the day). I'll have to try that one out.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2c0df0565b7f68f

I use to run this on and off. I have a bad habit of ignoring the head laser be I absolutely LOVE the arm mobility in the 4SP.

[InspectorG]

TercieI, on 16 June 2016 - 05:57 AM, said:

That's a near copy of my fave build on it (the 270 especially is a wrinkle I like). Add FF though and get your armor and some ammo and drop armor for another DHS.

I imagine it pays like 'if a Hunchback could become a SPL Locust'. All waiting and patience until that moment then its all hog-wild and you turn into a crazy murder machine.