36 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

I do believe "git gud" misses the point OP was making. This challenge (and indeed, the match score algorithm) is heavily biased towards damage dealers. If you're piloting a NARC Raven during these events, then... screw you. That 2000 dmg your LRM boats did because of your NARCs counts for nothing, unless you were lucky enough that the kill shot happened with an LRM precisely the moment the enemy mech was narced.

Information warfare needs to happen yesterday, to increase rewards for light mechs that aren't damage dealers. Furthermore, light mechs overall need help in MWO. Heavies and assaults are consistently getting better scores, and a 35 ton damage dealer (e.g. Firestarter) is only rarely as successful as a 100 ton damage dealer, so there's virtually no incentive to use smaller mechs outside FP or group queue.

[Lightfoot]

Homer teaches the cadets the art of piloting a Locust.....

[Deathlike]

Appogee, on 18 June 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

It's not hard to get 150 in a Locust.

But it does require more skill than in a Heavy, due to the damage-weighted scoring system. A Locust can die in one shot, whereas a Heavy can often survive a bit longer to deal the required damage.

So I do believe the scoring system should better reflect the relative contribution of Lights. From my perspective, they should get high rewards for disrupting enemy lines and killing assaults... though I am not sure how that could be coded into a reward system.

In MW4, there was a specific game mode called Attrition. Pretty much smaller/lighter mechs got a bonus multiplier for their contribution to the match. Of course, they were still focused on being damage dealers (like every other MW game), but it tended to soften the blow of their effectiveness relative to something bigger (because more guns = more damage).

If something like that were actually applied to MWO in some proper form (no, it's not BV, so get over it), then rewards might actually work for the Lights instead of the massing of heavier mechs... which is the current norm (Heavies themselves almost being 30-50% of the queue generally speaking).

[Appogee]

Deathlike, on 20 June 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

In MW4, there was a specific game mode called Attrition.

Oh yeah I remember that. It was cool.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

To be fair I kind of see his point. Say you're playing conquest and your team gets hit hard and the lolcust iniates plan A (GTFO) and caps enough for you to win on caps. The lolcust who won the game for you will have a match score of less than 150 nine times in ten.

However, if the lolcust sticks with the team and dies in a blaze of glory fighting he'll easily hit 150 but the team will lose. And... that sums up why as a light pilot I hate these events. Frankly PGI should make it either match score of 150 OR a win.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Simple fix: use "Damage taken" as part of Match Score.
There. Now assaults that simply die and don't fire a single weapon have the potential to have a higher match score than lights

That's what we want, right? That's the point of this thread?

[Jables McBarty]

smokytehbear, on 18 June 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

I do. Winners get paid, losers don't.

If you're good at your role and your role actually helps, you'll get paid more than people who aren't either or both of the above.

Before anyone throws in the complaint that scrubs can get carried and pros weighed down, yes I know. Over enough games that won't happen though. You would see way less lurmers, way less hiders, and more people willing to make sacrifices for the good of the team if a win counted for more than jack squat, and hiding in the back with a spider and helping no one didn't pay you extremely well.

1. Your entire argument is based on the premise that current scoring system correctly rewards all positive contributions.

2. ...that's about it.

I mean, you cite Lurmers as being non-contributors. Haven't you ever farmed Cbills in an LRMboat? Massively high damage numbers, lots of component destructions, and the obligatory KMDDs that go with it. Doesn't mean the LRMboat was the greatest contributor to that match.

EDIT: Apparently we agree

Edited by Jables McBarty, 20 June 2016 - 06:34 PM.

[Lykaon]

smokytehbear, on 18 June 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

I do. Winners get paid, losers don't.

If you're good at your role and your role actually helps, you'll get paid more than people who aren't either or both of the above.

Before anyone throws in the complaint that scrubs can get carried and pros weighed down, yes I know. Over enough games that won't happen though. You would see way less lurmers, way less hiders, and more people willing to make sacrifices for the good of the team if a win counted for more than jack squat, and hiding in the back with a spider and helping no one didn't pay you extremely well.

But if I am exceptional at my role as a light mech I have killed opponents by inflicting the minimal amount of damage needed to kill them.

Let's say we got ourselves an Oxide and it gets behind enemy lines and spies a Gauss Jager that is running an XL that Gauss Jager is built to face the enemy so he's got a total of 6 armor on his rear side torso So 2 salvos and POP dead 65 ton mech. I have one solo kill but I am aso credited for less than 40 damage done.

Now let's go and pilot a KDK 3 and also be super good at our role. I round a corner and spy an enemy Kingcrab and open up on it. I only hit it's CT and it goes down in short order. I have now been awarded a solo kill and did so dealing around 200 damage (armor + structure + quirk structure)

Both pilots performed expertly yet the Kodiak is awarded more for their contribution.

So I guess the question is why should anyone choose the light mech that gets a lesser reward for equal or greater effort?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

I do believe "git gud" misses the point OP was making. This challenge (and indeed, the match score algorithm) is heavily biased towards damage dealers. If you're piloting a NARC Raven during these events, then... screw you. That 2000 dmg your LRM boats did because of your NARCs counts for nothing, unless you were lucky enough that the kill shot happened with an LRM precisely the moment the enemy mech was narced.

Information warfare needs to happen yesterday, to increase rewards for light mechs that aren't damage dealers. Furthermore, light mechs overall need help in MWO. Heavies and assaults are consistently getting better scores, and a 35 ton damage dealer (e.g. Firestarter) is only rarely as successful as a 100 ton damage dealer, so there's virtually no incentive to use smaller mechs outside FP or group queue.

What if PGI doesn't give bonuses to NARC to discourage people to run NARC during events so that the people who get on who mostly only come during events have a lower chance of getting NARCed since PGI has seen that casual players hate getting hit and killed by LRMs.



Anyway as for something at hand on the topic. Comparing similar tier lights to assaults, the lights often get more chances to hit an enemy than the assaults do but have lower DPS.

Lets look at two laser boating mechs from each class. Arctic Cheetah running 6 small lasers for 30 damage per shot vs Banshee with 2 small lasers and 5 large pulse lasers, the small lasers never get used, so 55 damage per shot. Banshee gets about double the damage and more armor but, half the speed, no jump jets, and is considerably larger. The Cheetah, due to its mobility, ECM, and small size can get behind enemies much easier or get to better positions or even poptart at close range, allowing it to get in many more shots than the Banshee does in an average match.

Its a similar effect with mediums such as the Shadow Cat, even more mobility than an Arctic Cheetah with a little less damage but more range, giving it many chances to choose its engagement, take more shots, and get damage numbers equal to or greater than assaults.


Taking Lykaon's example of an ACH taking out a Jagermech compared to the Kodiak taking out a King Crab, in that situation the ACH takes no damage due to sneeking up behind an enemy while the KDK is subject to the full return fire of a dying King Crab. The KDK would only be able to do such a thing a limited number of times before dying, while an ACH who takes no damage per kill can go on forever, it simply has better trades, which is all being a light mech is about.

[Idealsuspect]

Bored about thoses noobs threads

If your locust die before assauts of your team its maybe coze you did bads moves after bads moves and your situation awareness is close to zero level...

[smokytehbear]

Jables McBarty, on 20 June 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

1. Your entire argument is based on the premise that current scoring system correctly rewards all positive contributions.

2. ...that's about it.

I mean, you cite Lurmers as being non-contributors. Haven't you ever farmed Cbills in an LRMboat? Massively high damage numbers, lots of component destructions, and the obligatory KMDDs that go with it. Doesn't mean the LRMboat was the greatest contributor to that match.

Wait what? Somewhere one of the two of us missed something or said something wrong. I'm specifically saying the way that the current match score is determined is totally broken, the exact opposite of "1." above. I think we're actually saying the exact same things bro.

Lykaon, on 20 June 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

But if I am exceptional at my role as a light mech I have killed opponents by inflicting the minimal amount of damage needed to kill them.

Let's say we got ourselves an Oxide and it gets behind enemy lines and spies a Gauss Jager that is running an XL that Gauss Jager is built to face the enemy so he's got a total of 6 armor on his rear side torso So 2 salvos and POP dead 65 ton mech. I have one solo kill but I am aso credited for less than 40 damage done.

Now let's go and pilot a KDK 3 and also be super good at our role. I round a corner and spy an enemy Kingcrab and open up on it. I only hit it's CT and it goes down in short order. I have now been awarded a solo kill and did so dealing around 200 damage (armor + structure + quirk structure)

Both pilots performed expertly yet the Kodiak is awarded more for their contribution.

So I guess the question is why should anyone choose the light mech that gets a lesser reward for equal or greater effort?

Yep ok, it was definitely me that wasn't clear. Again, I agree 100% with everything you're saying. The idea that match score needs to account for individual contributions, even if your team loses, is just a shortsighted resolution for something that's not a problem. In reality, if you contribute more, you win more. Period. There's 23 variables and 1 constant in every game. If you play 10000 games and you lose a lot more than you win, the problem is you. The fact that with current match score system you can get paid way more for being a KDK-3 with this record than a very effective locust pilot with a strong winning record will be paid, is in my opinion broken.

OP is right. Match score hamstrings light pilots. That's why in these events it's way easier to just drive 100 tonners and dish out 300-400 damage like a rambo and call it a day than it is to play smart and really contribute to victory. That's also why a lot of assault pilots reach Tier 2 and 1 (myself for instance) while still being relatively unskilled, and light pilots take forever comparatively to get there.

[DAYLEET]

LordNothing, on 18 June 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

the problem with these events is they make everyone play like total idiots. any other time 150 score is stupid easy to get (locust or dire). but in an event, everyone goes full pug and effectively acts like a player 2 tiers beneath them. you get lerm boats, sit around do nothing games, nascar, all the hallmarks of horrible games. it will continue until the event is over.

for all that is good in the world do not, under any circumstances, extend the event. dont even think about it pgi. you are only catering to the freeloaders anyway. no extensions! ever!

This event is so bad you get people asking for locks.

Edited by DAYLEET, 20 June 2016 - 05:21 PM.

[CtrlAltWheee]

150 in a light is easy. This is a generous promotion - basically just play a match and you win.

[wanderer]

Lykaon, on 20 June 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

But if I am exceptional at my role as a light mech I have killed opponents by inflicting the minimal amount of damage needed to kill them.

Let's say we got ourselves an Oxide and it gets behind enemy lines and spies a Gauss Jager that is running an XL that Gauss Jager is built to face the enemy so he's got a total of 6 armor on his rear side torso So 2 salvos and POP dead 65 ton mech. I have one solo kill but I am aso credited for less than 40 damage done.

Given, you'd actually get bonus damage if you shot out a side torso, as you also get the points for the arm you took along with it. But the point is that lights often get skunked for doing things lights are good at that don't involve damage.

NARCs are absolutely the worst example of this. People get nothing for NARC damage, but do for TAG damage. A stealth NARC hit doesn't even count as an assist.

[Jables McBarty]

smokytehbear, on 20 June 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Wait what? Somewhere one of the two of us missed something or said something wrong. I'm specifically saying the way that the current match score is determined is totally broken, the exact opposite of "1." above. I think we're actually saying the exact same things bro.



Yep ok, it was definitely me that wasn't clear. Again, I agree 100% with everything you're saying. The idea that match score needs to account for individual contributions, even if your team loses, is just a shortsighted resolution for something that's not a problem. In reality, if you contribute more, you win more. Period. There's 23 variables and 1 constant in every game. If you play 10000 games and you lose a lot more than you win, the problem is you. The fact that with current match score system you can get paid way more for being a KDK-3 with this record than a very effective locust pilot with a strong winning record will be paid, is in my opinion broken.

OP is right. Match score hamstrings light pilots. That's why in these events it's way easier to just drive 100 tonners and dish out 300-400 damage like a rambo and call it a day than it is to play smart and really contribute to victory. That's also why a lot of assault pilots reach Tier 2 and 1 (myself for instance) while still being relatively unskilled, and light pilots take forever comparatively to get there.

My bad--on second reading I see what you mean.

My sincere apologies

[Cpt Leprechaun]

Im sorry locusts run around for 15 min and get a kill and 2 assists? are we playing the same game?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Cpt Leprechaun, on 20 June 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

Im sorry locusts run around for 15 min and get a kill and 2 assists? are we playing the same game?

Locust OP, use a weaker mech, like the Arctic Cheetah you tryhard.