72 replies to this topic

[Jables McBarty]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 June 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

No, they should've flattened the mountain rather than trying to path people through claustrophobic pathways, otherwise everyone will continue to travel south of the mountain and engage from there.

Oh I agree absolutely, but as long we are half-assing it, might as well half-*** it correctly

[xengk]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Has that plateau with the lonely road always been there?
Could be an interesting sniper nest for lights with PPC and JJs.
A sniper or two there can force the enemy into the arc or into the cove and open combat, instead of trading from the trees and ruins at G7 G8.

[Rebas Kradd]

It's not the map. It's the gamemodes and their objectives. They are the ultimate driving force between what happens on a map.

Until something is done to force wider fighting through smart use of objectives, plunking down a massive impenetrable mountain in the middle of the map is the ONLY way to spread out fighting. Crimson does the same thing, but it's not really spreading out. It's just blocking.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 21 June 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[RedDragon]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

This is the sort of evidence I would point to when I say that PGI map designers either don't know what they're doing,

You know, by now I have the feeling it must be somewhere in the job's description for working at PGI ...

[Sader325]

xengk, on 21 June 2016 - 07:43 AM, said:

Has that plateau with the lonely road always been there?
Could be an interesting sniper nest for lights with PPC and JJs.
A sniper or two there can force the enemy into the arc or into the cove and open combat, instead of trading from the trees and ruins at G7 G8.

The plateau road is the old path, they were lazy and just "filled" the old road and raised it. They didnt change its textures.

[Idealsuspect]

Sean Lang, on 21 June 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement. Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

Well instead try to fix maps we are playing since years they should just try to release a new one.. News maps is new content, remixed map or fixed ( with more issues most of time ) isn't new content but it cost money like new maps.

[Variant1]

Sean Lang, on 21 June 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement, and I expect more like this will occur. PGI now having 3 map designers will open up the doors to quick fixes/adjustments! Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

noooo dont touch my terra therm and bog! i like them the way they are. I just hope they dont make all the maps make you spawn in dropships, i like the variation plz.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 June 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

The fact there is no cover is the reason it isn't actually a strategic decision, you only take that route if you need save time (in other words, you are pushing) and you never want to push into firing lines if you have no cover to utilize on the approach. Not to mention this will probably funnel people just like the old pathway adding yet another incentive to never take it, just like the tunnel from old forest colony.

Considering during a push cover is fleeting or non-existent (As you should be moving forward and not stopping) on virtually every map, are you saying this is a unique problem in Forest Colony, or that it's an issue in general with PGI's map design methods? You do have a choice here - Don't use it if it's not the best approach in the given situation... Just like every other map.

We both know the old forest colony tunnel had its uses; It could be extremely beneficial or detrimental to your team's success depending on how, when and if you used it. That the same is exemplified here is, at least I thought, what people wanted - Strategic decision making.

Sader325, on 21 June 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

Except your wrong. They removed 2 or three trees from the entrance of the path that gave you quick accessible cover as you came out and blocked line of sight to the entrance. It was there before its gone now.

You were saying?

So you tell me I'm wrong then admit I'm right in the following sentence... Please make up your mind. You want the quickest, easiest paths to also provide 'adequate' cover - This is contradictory to requiring people to make a decision, move and engage based on the situation. Shortcuts = No cover, Long way around = cover.There will be no having of the cake and eating it too. Putting cover directly at the entrance/exit and anywhere inside the pathways encourages movement stagnation in an area apparently intended for fast traversal that allows you access to various sectors of the map in a short period of time with the drawback of if you get caught with your pants down, it's not going to be pretty - What's wrong with that?

As for the old path (Which I assume you're referring to) having trees for quick cover - Not really. Considering it was wide open to sniper fire from the atop multiple raised rock platforms and virtually everyone standing near the archway, rocks and in the hillside, that assertation is hugely false. It served a purpose and had pros/cons, just like now.

That isn't to say I don't agree with Sean that the actual location of the path and the movement it encourages is undesirable, because it is;There needs to be more avenues in better thought-out places to encourage utilization of the entire map. But when it comes to filling every path and corridor with cover, no.

[Alistair Winter]

Rebas Kradd, on 21 June 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

It's not the map. It's the gamemodes and their objectives. They are the ultimate driving force between what happens on a map.

Until something is done to force wider fighting through smart use of objectives, plunking down a massive impenetrable mountain in the middle of the map is the ONLY way to spread out fighting. Crimson does the same thing, but it's not really spreading out. It's just blocking.

They're closely connected, I'd say. No matter how good the game modes are, bad maps will result in bad gameplay, and vice versa.

In my opinion, Skirmish should always be fun on a good map. It's kind of a benchmark to determine if the map is properly designed. I do wish MWO had game modes with dynamic objectives, such as escorting convoys, killing enemy commanders, etc. But straight up engagements without extra objectives are an important part of any military game (even sci-fi ones with robots), I think. If pure team battles are boring, there's something wrong with the game. Other game modes are there to provide extra complexity and variation and more strategical matches. But "team deathmatch" needs to be fun as well.

[Revis Volek]

YaKillinMeSmalls, on 21 June 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

Make Forest Colony cave again!

[Appogee]

Map still makes my Mech feel tiny.

And that's exactly not how I should feel when I'm piloting a ONE HUNDRED TON 3 STOREY HIGH WALKING WAR MACHINE!

ahem

[DrxAbstract]

Appogee, on 22 June 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

Map still makes my Mech feel tiny.

And that's exactly not how I should feel when I'm piloting a ONE HUNDRED TON 3 STOREY HIGH WALKING WAR MACHINE!

ahem

Never understood this desire, personally. You want to feel big and powerful in something 30 feet tall and 100 tons? We have landscape features that dwarf 1,100ft long, 200ft tall, 150,000 ton ocean liners on our own planet, to say nothing of the features of other planets... It's time for you to accept just how insignificant you are and move on.

[Trauglodyte]

Sean Lang, on 21 June 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement, and I expect more like this will occur. PGI now having 3 map designers will open up the doors to quick fixes/adjustments! Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

You were right about the need of a sea cove tunnel there. I actually wanted that when they re-released the Forest Colony. That back water area is extremely NOT used - it isn't even played enough to be considered under used. Adding a cave there would allow for another path around without making someone go ALL the way around.

[LordNothing]

when you are working on forest colony, can you fix that spot on the beach that always crashes my client?

[Appogee]

DrxAbstract, on 22 June 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

We have landscape features that dwarf 1,100ft long, 200ft tall, 150,000 ton ocean liners on our own planet, to say nothing of the features of other planets...

But not everywhere, and probably not on every planet.

When piloting a 100t 3-storey war machine always feels the same as wearing a battlesuit, then there is something wrong with the environmental scaling.

[adamts01]

Rebas Kradd, on 21 June 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

It's not the map. It's the gamemodes and their objectives. They are the ultimate driving force between what happens on a map.

Until something is done to force wider fighting through smart use of objectives, plunking down a massive impenetrable mountain in the middle of the map is the ONLY way to spread out fighting. Crimson does the same thing, but it's not really spreading out. It's just blocking.

Kind of, but there are maps where the battle takes place at different places quite often. Tourmaline is kind of like that, polar is good, new frozen is good. Then there were maps like Forest, Old Frozen, Crimson, Bog and Terra Therma where you can write up a play by play from the loading screen.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Appogee, on 22 June 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

Map still makes my Mech feel tiny.

And that's exactly not how I should feel when I'm piloting a ONE HUNDRED TON 3 STOREY HIGH WALKING WAR MACHINE!

ahem

Yup

Hopefully new level designers come from school where the curriculum not only included human sized environments. Then again they will not be listened, like that poor tester or testers who said that minimap usability was bad but got overruled by PGIs Star Chamber.

DrxAbstract, on 22 June 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Never understood this desire, personally. You want to feel big and powerful in something 30 feet tall and 100 tons? We have landscape features that dwarf 1,100ft long, 200ft tall, 150,000 ton ocean liners on our own planet, to say nothing of the features of other planets... It's time for you to accept just how insignificant you are and move on.

This is not some metaphysical discussion how small we as a species are in the universe/planetary scale, but simply about percieved scale and how to make our warmachines size more apparent. Yes, we also have features on our planet that are conviniently 2, 5, 10, 20 meters as well, which are very good comparison points visually. IF you choose objects you can relate to, sort of an universal idea.

Like everybody gets the size of a truck, a car, common trees around the world; pine, birch, palm. Yes, I know other planets they might not look at all like here, well, mechs are not precisely practical so putting birch trees as an imported species to Rasalhague Prime isn't that far fetched in the mech universe, I am sure Solaris can have pink palm trees.

Appogee, on 22 June 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

When piloting a 100t 3-storey war machine always feels the same as wearing a battlesuit, then there is something wrong with the environmental scaling.

These are exactly the words I'd use, feels like we are running around in some suits fighting, then you have some mechanical pets (ligths) running around your feet. It is WAY too hard to distinguish what size mechs are as there are too few familiar sized features to compare to.
Positive exceptions are the maps with abundance of buildings and vehicles spread about.

[SnagaDance]

YaKillinMeSmalls, on 21 June 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

Make Forest Colony cave again!

This! And make it yuge, YUGE!!!

[Alistair Winter]

There's no doubt that there are countless imaginable landscapes that would make you feel tiny in any vehicle, whether 50 feet or 500 feet tall. Imagine fighting around Mount Olympus on Mars, for example. It's 21 kilometers tall.

As others have said, however, one of the reasons people are attracted to Mechwarrior is the huge robots. Huge robots don't make any kind of sense from a realistic perspective. They only appeal to us because they are huge and powerful. Nobody would play a game where you control a tiny 1 foot robot, it has zero appeal.

Now, accepting that people have some irrational attraction to playing a huge stompy robot that makes no military sense (a tank would be better at just about everything), you may as well try to cater to this attraction instead of actively going against it. Insert visual cues such as roads, buildings, vehicles and normal sized vegetation. Ideally, even animals such as birds or humans (as seen in MW3)

[Solis Obscuri]

I miss the cave.