110 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

MischiefSC, on 22 June 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

Tanks vs tanks isn't ideal because you don't need a tank to kill a tank. Very inefficient to do so.

Also, you don't want to bring a knife to a knife fight, bring a freakin sword. This game is all about choosing your targets wisely. People always think that lights should kill other lights, why have a fair fight? That's what fast mediums are for. Lights are really best suited for bigger targets they can outmaneuver.

[Cowbies]

Can a light kill you face to face? If so you suck at aiming.
Can a light kill you in the back before you realise? Maybe equip you back with something a bit stronger than wet tissue paper or turn around. I don't understand how people are still complaining that they're 10 armor back is dying so fast.

[DarthHias]

adamts01, on 22 June 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

Also, you don't want to bring a knife to a knife fight, bring a freakin sword. This game is all about choosing your targets wisely. People always think that lights should kill other lights, why have a fair fight? That's what fast mediums are for. Lights are really best suited for bigger targets they can outmaneuver.

Yeah that´s what all the anti Light guys don´t understand. A dogfight between two decent Light pilots can take pretty long and will usually leave the winner in a sad state.

[L3mming2]

Random Carnage, on 22 June 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

As should you, apparently. What do you think will happen if a Humvee takes on an Abrams?

so infantry suport for armor is just for company not to protect them from being outflanced by fast small units, that would be able to swarm them and get so close they would not be able to defend ...

[Darian DelFord]

Cowbies, on 22 June 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

Can a light kill you face to face? If so you suck at aiming.
Can a light kill you in the back before you realise? Maybe equip you back with something a bit stronger than wet tissue paper or turn around. I don't understand how people are still complaining that they're 10 armor back is dying so fast.

YOu give them to much credit. I would be surprised if its about 4

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Well you can at least tell who the bads are at this game.

[Fang01]

Lykaon, on 22 June 2016 - 01:30 AM, said:

Is the Humvee armed with an anti tank TOW missile? Because honestly the Tank crew does fear this eventuallity because the Humvee is a small fast moving target with a relativley small target profile that mounts a weapon that can potentially kill the tank crew with one well placed hit.

Or how about an anti tank infantry team? just a couple of doods with no armor and a top speed of around 3 MPH but they have FGM 148 Javelin?

Yes the tank crew does fear this because it can kill them.

<19k Abrams crewmen 00-05'

#1 tows fly slow as balls and a good tank crew can identify, engage, and kill the launch platform within its flight time
#2 the truck CANNOT move while the tow is being launched OR is in flight.

Javs are somewhat different but are rapidly losing their teeth with current active protection systems like arena and trophy.

Tanks fear CAS, mines, and other tanks. Period.

[Fang01]

MischiefSC, on 22 June 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

Whole analogy is broken. Reality is that tanks don't often fight tanks and the biggest threat to tanks is universally smaller, faster targets who stay out of sight and shoot first. Be that attack choppers, TOW equipped technical or AT infantry.

Tanks vs tanks isn't ideal because you don't need a tank to kill a tank. Very inefficient to do so.

Yeah no. MBTs are specifically designed to kill MBTs. Go research 73 easting and tell me how inefficient it was.

[Mawai]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 21 June 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

Someone that enjoys a play style other than "Charge kill repeat"......Just b/c you don't want lights to be spotters and info gatherers doesn't mean others don't.

Inb4 "but why can't I have what I want, aka lights to be good at fighting".....well the difference is someone that wants to be an invisible scout or spotter can only choose a light (maybe a small medium)....they can't hop in an 90 ton mech and make do.

Therefore, why should the opposite end of the spectrum be able to hop in and do the assaults / heavy heavies job?

Or are you insinuating that this game should always and forever be literally nothing but a death match skirmish with no hope for more depth or variety?

B/c that's what allowing every mech to be good at killing gets you..... as we've seen for years.

Edit: I'm aware part of that is based on PGI not really giving us more things to focus on.... but only partially. The rest is small minded players that think every mech class deserves to be good at killing and refusing to play things if they aren't / spreading their opinion with venom at anyone that they disagree with.

I can see that you have never heard of a Steiner scout lance ...

[M T]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Lights need to be "fixed" they shouldn't be viable as forward attacking elements. They are spotters, they are wolfpacks, they are cappers, they are not solo attackers that can run into groups and kill things and get out. That's gone on too long.

So poking from an angle and getting a few quad UAC10's in your face just by showing yourself once and dying often doesnt warrant them being able to do a bit of damage in? Smart/fast play in a light SHOULD in fact reward you with exactly that.

This is the whole reason why a Kodiak/Direwolf can easily do 500-600 damage even with the most horrible game you play, just aim and shoot. For a light to do that you'd have to do a WHOLE lot more.

If you really just want them to be pure scouts, can we just get rid of all their weapon hardpoints?

[Darian DelFord]

M T, on 22 June 2016 - 05:35 AM, said:

So poking from an angle and getting a few quad UAC10's in your face just by showing yourself once and dying often doesnt warrant them being able to do a bit of damage in? Smart/fast play in a light SHOULD in fact reward you with exactly that.

This is the whole reason why a Kodiak/Direwolf can easily do 500-600 damage even with the most horrible game you play, just aim and shoot. For a light to do that you'd have to do a WHOLE lot more.

If you really just want them to be pure scouts, can we just get rid of all their weapon hardpoints?

Yeah people truly do not understand how much work goes into playing a light. Especially the evading part.

[ChewBaka]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Of course I expect all the light pilots to chirp in with their rhetoric about how the light chassis should be a viable solo attack element. Does that sound a s stupid hearing it as it sounds saying it? Just wondering.

Regardless, having lights capable of taking out assaults in 1v1 is absurd. Its absurd and its absurd to suggest a light should be viable vs a heavy or an assault on a regular basis. Lights regularly engage in this not due to some kind of elite "skill" but rather more so from taking advantage of exploits inherent to the game.

PGI m,ay not be able to fix the inherent exploits in the game but they sure can level things by making you sloppy and fat. ROFLSAUCE!!!

I don't disagree with the viewpoint that we really need more defined roles in this game, and that lights should be something else other than speedy little brawlers.

BUT...until PGI actually finds a proper role for them in a real and rewarding sense (and no, that is not in the game yet), I expect you'll find people just migrating over to play Heavies instead.

RIP PUG queue balance.

[Darian DelFord]

ChewBaka, on 22 June 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

I don't disagree with the viewpoint that we really need more defined roles in this game, and that lights should be something else other than speedy little brawlers.

BUT...until PGI actually finds a proper role for them in a real and rewarding sense (and no, that is not in the game yet), I expect you'll find people just migrating over to play Heavies instead.

RIP PUG queue balance.

This is one of my biggest fears. Lets face it Light mechs in general are Hard Mode in this game and take more skill to play than the heavier chassis. Sane people will gravitate to whats easier and gains more C-Bills

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Darian DelFord, on 22 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

This is one of my biggest fears. Lets face it Light mechs in general are Hard Mode in this game and take more skill to play than the heavier chassis. Sane people will gravitate to whats easier and gains more C-Bills

I'm a backwards person, I find lights easier to play than assaults, I do equally well in either, but with lights I don't have to worry as much about people getting in my way, positioning can be changed quickly, peeking and poking is very easy to do, trading is often favorable, and damage spreading is the easiest. Lights are one of the only classes that you can poke out, fire, and get back in cover while an enemy is looking in your direction and still dodge their return fire just because their projectile velocity isn't enough. Could be my time in tribes coming back up, doing things fast and accurately is second nature to me.

In an assault everything is so much slower and you are a massive target, no one is going to be missing you and LRM boats will be out for you all game, if allies get in your way your firing lane is entirely blocked and there isn't anything you can do in a short amount of time, if you are peeking and poking and aren't in an exceptionally fast assault with insanely high mounts you can forget trading without taking damage. Spreading damage is going to be much harder, and if your hitboxes aren't great you can expect your CT to be gone before your arms even take damage.

I know that light mechs require skills to pilot, but assaults do too, they require a different set of skills. Lights require lots of evasion, short term tactics, stealth, trading just off the top of my head. Assaults require excessive positioning, planning ahead, team coordination. If anything its much harder to dodge anything in an assault at least, and one thing I've realized is that the ground's armor never hits 0%. Its a different way of play, lights are able to get into position to fire faster and more often than assaults, but put out less damage each time, lights dodge much easier while assaults have more armor, this leaves both classes pretty balanced out in terms of damage they do per match in the hands of a pilot skilled in either.

An assault out of position dies with sub 100 damage just like a light with bad evasion.

[Ultimax]

Lehmund, on 21 June 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

I really like the fact that PGI standardized the sizes of mechs based on their occupied volume to fit their tonnage. This is not "game balancing". It's uniformization moving forward. Changing movement profiles however ...

Just some math to illustrate how mechs can seem of the wrong size and why many lights got a size bump:

Imagine an identical volume shape, the box ( X by X by X ).

Say we have a 64 ton box, a 32 ton box and a 16 ton box.

Using simple math the 64 ton box would be 4 meters high assuming 1 cubic meter of box-material is 1 ton.
The 32 ton is half its tonnage but it would be 3.2 meters high, roughly 80% the height of the box twice its weight.
Now the 16 ton box is 2.5 meters high, a bit over 60% the height of the 64 ton box, which is 4 times heavier.

Now if we use mechs instead of boxes with similar profiles and shapes:
- is the Mist lynx (25 t) about 60% of a Kodiac's (100 t) height? I don't think so IMO but I didn't do a side by side... Lynxes are one fourth the weight....
- is the Jenner (35 t) over 80% of the height of that catapult (65 t), being more that half its weight? Looks like it, especially the catapult has some decent volume in its arm-pods...

Point is with these CORRECT scales, expect your lights to be larger than you are used to.

Play them for their attributes, which is usually speed and agility or agility and support equipment, because you can't hide under rocks anymore.

Just change your playstyle accordingly.

1) I don't play lights.

2) Your assertion is ridiculous. Lights can't simply adjust to this, they were already one of the weaker classes in the game.

I know this is a hard pill for a lot of players to swallow, but at upper skill levels of this game putting damage onto lights pre-rescale wasn't some impossible task.

Outside of a few outliers that received an overdose of quirks - lights needed to be extremely careful against good teams/players or be vaporized.

[Ultimax]

Moldur, on 21 June 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

The catapult has arms that are virtually the same height and width + half the depth of the side and center torso put together. If I squint hard enough, I guess the Jenner IIC and Catapult are almost the same.

Sorry, but the new Catapult is ridiculous compared to other heavies now.

The Grasshopper 5 tons heavier nearly has the frontal profile of an Atlas, meanwhile the "Miniature-pult" can hide among lights and mediums.

[Dawnstealer]

As someone who regularly pilots Lights, I agree: they shouldn't be mini-assault boats. But right now, the only way to get rewards is to be an assault boat.

There aren't really rewards for holding that lock, finding where the main enemy force is, capping. Or rather there ARE rewards, but they're so minuscule compared to the fighting ones that there's no reason to scout when you could fight.

[adamts01]

Dawnstealer, on 22 June 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

As someone who regularly pilots Lights, I agree: they shouldn't be mini-assault boats. But right now, the only way to get rewards is to be an assault boat.

There aren't really rewards for holding that lock, finding where the main enemy force is, capping. Or rather there ARE rewards, but they're so minuscule compared to the fighting ones that there's no reason to scout when you could fight.

It's not even about rewards, it's about usefulness. I'd like there to be more to it that killing, but it's hands down best for my team if I'm in direct combat. I win so many more conquest maps in my Locust when I fight than when I cap. This game is all about the kills.

[baropara]

adamts01, on 22 June 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

It's not even about rewards, it's about usefulness. I'd like there to be more to it that killing, but it's hands down best for my team if I'm in direct combat. I win so many more conquest maps in my Locust when I fight than when I cap. This game is all about the kills.

actually there are rare situations when cap-win is ethical and every mature light prefer to die as a used sword not a citchen knife.

Edited by baropara, 22 June 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[MitzaVolchenko]

I am trying to sort my lights out, still. The locusts feel okay, the others feel a bit like unmastered trial mechs.

It is slow going because the current minimap is making me physically nauseous. I almost went out to buy post its this morning, but apparently they are taking another stab at that nightmare soon.

To everyone that thinks lights are just scouts and cap holders, I am fine with that as our role...if we get match rewards that scale up for those things. Capping 7 points in a conquest game while dodging the enemy so that you can have a match score of 20 and get jack for rewards means that we light pilots would rather be backstabbers and ya'll can go get your own cap points if you insist on voting for that format.