110 replies to this topic

[MerryIguana]

The best part about all these light whiners is that they now have to deal with the uber locust. Good luck potatoes.

[Coolant]

love the light pilot tears

[Mad Dog Morgan]

No really, a majority of them (All classes) got bigger, instead of having a universal downscale. Some mechs are bigger than the select mech screen.

Edited by Vaskadar, 22 June 2016 - 10:38 AM.

[somedood]

They're using volume to determine the size of the mech, and everybody is complaining about the lights being too big without considering what volume means. A mech weight half as much is not going to be half the height, but closer to 20% shorter instead (assuming idential profiles). This is the only person that has used actual math:

Lehmund, on 21 June 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

I really like the fact that PGI standardized the sizes of mechs based on their occupied volume to fit their tonnage. This is not "game balancing". It's uniformization moving forward. Changing movement profiles however ...

Just some math to illustrate how mechs can seem of the wrong size and why many lights got a size bump:

Imagine an identical volume shape, the box ( X by X by X ).

Say we have a 64 ton box, a 32 ton box and a 16 ton box.

Using simple math the 64 ton box would be 4 meters high assuming 1 cubic meter of box-material is 1 ton.
The 32 ton is half its tonnage but it would be 3.2 meters high, roughly 80% the height of the box twice its weight.
Now the 16 ton box is 2.5 meters high, a bit over 60% the height of the 64 ton box, which is 4 times heavier.

Now if we use mechs instead of boxes with similar profiles and shapes:
- is the Mist lynx (25 t) about 60% of a Kodiac's (100 t) height? I don't think so IMO but I didn't do a side by side... Lynxes are one fourth the weight....
- is the Jenner (35 t) over 80% of the height of that catapult (65 t), being more that half its weight? Looks like it, especially the catapult has some decent volume in its arm-pods...

Point is with these CORRECT scales, expect your lights to be larger than you are used to.

Play them for their attributes, which is usually speed and agility or agility and support equipment, because you can't hide under rocks anymore.

Just change your playstyle accordingly.

[Felio]

oldradagast, on 21 June 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Nope. You can't expect "somebody else" to play the dull, barely combat viable mech. Who wants to run around pressing "R" or stand in a circle all day vs. actually fighting? I know - "somebody else" - as is the eternal response to claims that Lights should be lousy in combat but given boring, vital roles to play.

This is not tabletop or a PvE game with NPC's scouts. Both sides bring 12 mechs - no more, no less - to the battlefield, and combat is the top priority and fun thing to do in the game for nearly the entire population. Therefore, all mechs must be about equally combat viable or they have no reason to exist in this type of game.

I said this when I started playing in open beta. The tabletop game gives you more than one mech, and you control them all. MWO gives you one.

Think of it like if you turned chess into an RPG. Chess is a great game, right? Loved by millions. Now turn it into Chesswarrior Online. Who is going to play the pawn? Farking nobody, that's who.

[MischiefSC]

Fang01, on 22 June 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Yeah no. MBTs are specifically designed to kill MBTs. Go research 73 easting and tell me how inefficient it was.

Tanks are designed to kill tanks the same way they are designed to kill any armored target. The point being that you don't deploy tanks to kill tanks, you deploy CAS and AT infantry or AT traps (mines et al). A tank v tank engagement is stupidly expensive and less reliable. Same reason tanks deploy with infantry and CAS; you don't want rock v rock even if your rock generally wins. You want rock v scissors, scissors vs paper and paper v rock.

It's not about even fights or close fights it's about trying to pick fights you know you can win.

Which takes us back to MW:O. The point of lights is to kill stupid assault pilots, disrupt positions and kill targets of opportunity. Wandering off alone in a warzone in a tank is pretty stupid, isn't it? An assault in with his team doesn't have anything to fear from a light. The assault pilot int he back LRMing from his Atlas does, he's going to die an die quickly because he's in a stupid build, out of position and turning himself into a target of opportunity.

If lights are now just fragile mediums that are a little bit faster there's no point in taking them over a fast medium. If it's the same size why in the world would I take a 35 tonner over a 55 tonner? Especially when I can build the 55 tonner to be within 15kph with the same loadout but as maneuverable (or more so thanks to quirks) with more armor and structure?

The point of the games balance is that every mech has a counter. The counter to assaults is lights. I get that assault pilots (bad ones anyway) want to nerf lights but end of the day it just kills game balance.

[Revis Volek]

Carl Vickers, on 21 June 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Looks to me like he is looking at the mechs from the default angle which is not straight. The default angle looks down a few degrees off straight.

Which is then going to make the Jenner look bigger than it actually is.

Im not saying it isnt bigger, just pointing out something I see in the above pic.

By that logic the Cat would have the same effect, it would look a little bigger then it is.

This doesn't change their relative size to each other, just changes your perspective a bit.


I was under the impression that light were smaller then they were suppose to be for gameplay reason. I guess that was just PGI's stance AT THE TIME.

Edited by Revis Volek, 22 June 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Kei Nogareru]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 21 June 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

Someone that enjoys a play style other than "Charge kill repeat"......Just b/c you don't want lights to be spotters and info gatherers doesn't mean others don't.

Inb4 "but why can't I have what I want, aka lights to be good at fighting".....well the difference is someone that wants to be an invisible scout or spotter can only choose a light (maybe a small medium)....they can't hop in an 90 ton mech and make do.

Therefore, why should the opposite end of the spectrum be able to hop in and do the assaults / heavy heavies job?

Or are you insinuating that this game should always and forever be literally nothing but a death match skirmish with no hope for more depth or variety?

B/c that's what allowing every mech to be good at killing gets you..... as we've seen for years.

Edit: I'm aware part of that is based on PGI not really giving us more things to focus on.... but only partially. The rest is small minded players that think every mech class deserves to be good at killing and refusing to play things if they aren't / spreading their opinion with venom at anyone that they disagree with.

I have yet to meet someone that plays a FPS with hopes of not shooting anything...

Being a mobile UAV doesn't sound like any fun to me at all.

[Gloris]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Lights need to be "fixed" they shouldn't be viable as forward attacking elements. They are spotters, they are wolfpacks, they are cappers, they are not solo attackers that can run into groups and kill things and get out. That's gone on too long.

If a light can run into your team, kill a healthy mech on it's own and then run out again, then your team needs to stop aiming with a driving wheel.
Get yourself and them one of those "Mouse" thingys, i heared they are pretty cool.

Edited by Gloris, 22 June 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

adamts01, on 22 June 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:

That's not it though. Assuming both pilots are equal in skill and have similar load-outs (brawler v brawler or sniper v sniper), the bigger mech wins. If it doesn't it's because of terrain, but that can be avoided if you know you're gong up against a more agile opponent.

That's generally how it works in 1v1 hand to hand combat with humans as well. Skill being equal, the bigger guy will usually win...hence why there are weight classes in combat sports.

[Pjwned]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Lights need to be "fixed" they shouldn't be viable as forward attacking elements. They are spotters, they are wolfpacks, they are cappers, they are not solo attackers that can run into groups and kill things and get out. That's gone on too long.

While I do agree that lights need to not be able to run straight into a group to kill things and then survive, they do need to be combat viable. There's nothing wrong with lights being able to flank and kill things or even just harass (rather than kill) a group of enemy mechs (unless you're baddie assault pilot whiner), but if the goal of not allowing lights to charge into a group and live is met by making lights garbage in combat period then that will completely bury an entire weight class that's already far too under-represented in the vast majority of matches.

[Barantor]

On the plus side, I've rediscovered the joy of shutting down enemy mechs with a firestarter with flamers. So many PHX with the meta 3xLarges that ride the heat line too close. I remind them that they need to save some heat lol.

Firestarter can't really brawl anymore at all like it used to, too many downsides. I've started playing protection duty for the heavier stuff.

[MischiefSC]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 June 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

That's generally how it works in 1v1 hand to hand combat with humans as well. Skill being equal, the bigger guy will usually win...hence why there are weight classes in combat sports.

And if mechs were all within 150 lbs of each other using the exact same tools it would reasonably be the same. Also if MWO matches were homogeneous by weight class.

That's not the case nor are matches broken up assault v assault. Matches are mixed population with huge variance in loadout so there needs to be a balance Assault v light or you're breaking game balance fundamentally.

[Kmieciu]

Firs impression of Locust-1V armed with 1 LPL, post patch:

[Malachy Karrde]

Darian DelFord, on 21 June 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

Just as soon as Heavies and Assault mechs MOVE like heavy and assault mechs and not Ballerina's on steroids.

that's got to be the stupidest comment I've ever read. It's clear you've never operated any of the 100 ton assaults.

[DarthHias]

Vaskadar, on 22 June 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

No really, a majority of them (All classes) got bigger, instead of having a universal downscale. Some mechs are bigger than the select mech screen.

Imagine how tiny the Locust would be. It would be half it´s current size

[Elrik Stormbringer]

I don't really mind the mechs getting bigger. The switch of movement archetypes really hit me hard though. Took 15-20 matches or so to get used to my previously nimble mechs being more sluggish, but once I adjusted I was doing ok. I still preferred when my jenners and jenner iics were twitchy like my locusts, but one of my favorite lights has always been the adder, and now I just have to play the jenners in the same style as I would my adders.

I have to agree that the people saying "Lights should just scout and not be able to take out mechs on their own" are a bunch of heavy piloting whiners. Until we get decent xp/cbill/team score rewards for doing something other than damage, don't expect light pilots to do anything but act as damage dealers. And no, this isn't an issue with mwo, it is by design and just as easy to do in tabletop. I have taken out an atlas in TT with a light hovercraft with a single medium laser as a weapon. When you can move 21 hexes in a single turn, you can always be in the rear firing arc (or out of range if you lose iniative) and your movement modifiers make to hit rolls for the rear facing mediums (which we don't even get in mwo) pretty unlikely. Does it take forever, yes, but it is doable, so get over yourselves.

[Darian DelFord]

Malachy Karrde, on 23 June 2016 - 03:51 AM, said:

that's got to be the stupidest comment I've ever read. It's clear you've never operated any of the 100 ton assaults.

Its clear that you want to keep your agility so a 100 ton mech can face his rear arc in under two seconds. They are ballerina's most of them

And yes, all bu the kodiak

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

I'm a light pilot. I prefer to be a light pilot. I've enjoyed lights pre and post patch.
Sure they don't pump out 1k damage...
But you can't hit what you can't see.

[Darian DelFord]

BaconTWOfourACTUAL, on 23 June 2016 - 06:11 AM, said:

I'm a light pilot. I prefer to be a light pilot. I've enjoyed lights pre and post patch.
Sure they don't pump out 1k damage...
But you can't hit what you can't see.

They days of light mechs pumping out 1k consistent damage went the way of the DoeDoe a long time ago.